Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: marky mark on June 19, 2011, 08:12:21 pm
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Well, here is another to ask about. COSTCO now has "Divine Spa's", made by Clear Water Spa's. From everything I can find on Clear Water Spa's, they seem to be a very good tub. They are not as inexpensive as the others offered at COSTCO, other than the obvious shorter warranty you will give up (like all COSTCO tubs) How are these tubs? Anyone with any experience with them? I like the fact they have a circulation pump and I like the fact they are not a full foam tub. I do not want a full foam tub, that's just me. Anyway, all comments will be welcomed by me. Every time I get close to purchasing a tub, something comes up. I will have one before fall, that's all I know for sure. Thanks all.
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You get what you pay for; there are all kinds ways to shave cost and build a cheaper hot tub and those cost savings usually equate to quality.
It is nothing you will see at first but it will not take long and you will see it.
Not sure what your hang up is on full foam but I would prefer a spa with insulation rather than none. It also serves other purposes, binds the hot tub so it is a solid unit, supports the pluming... There are a couple of companies that do thermal air gap that are decent but you will not find that at Costco.
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MarkyMark,
are you in the market for a tub, or are you a servicetech or salesman, on the other thread you said you did not like full foam,,,,then you are this one about the COstco tub be Clearwater,, not sure of this model, but i also sell Clearwater, as well as D1, i can tell you the ins and outs of both....,, i like both but lean toward the foam side... but on a thermal chamber i will only sell with the 24/7 circ pump, I know that Clearwater offers a Costco road show, but did not know they are supplying them to Costco. i will have to check that out...But curious on how you came to the decision of the insulating of the tub to make your purchase...
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MarkyMark,
are you in the market for a tub, or are you a servicetech or salesman, on the other thread you said you did not like full foam,,,,then you are this one about the COstco tub be Clearwater,, not sure of this model, but i also sell Clearwater, as well as D1, i can tell you the ins and outs of both....,, i like both but lean toward the foam side... but on a thermal chamber i will only sell with the 24/7 circ pump, I know that Clearwater offers a Costco road show, but did not know they are supplying them to Costco. i will have to check that out...But curious on how you came to the decision of the insulating of the tub to make your purchase...
ELF: LOL! I am far from a spa salesman or a spa tech. In fact, I have never owned a spa or worked on one. I have only been in one a few times, hardly a expert. I don't know where you get I am a full foam fan, on this thread as on others, I state I do not want one. So there is some confusion there, but no harm on this end. I have a bad back I have lived with most of my life, and hot showers and such help out quite a bit. I also have a perfect spot in my new home for a spa, so I have decided to get one. No troll here, I promise. Trouble is getting a honest opinion anywhere on the net. Full of trolls and dealers. I base my opinion on full foam VS not only as a result of my own reading and learning, picking through the biased replies. No doubt I believe they are superior in making a tub more solid, especially if you plan on moving it, which I do not. I am also convinced, that if you live in a warmer climate, which I do, the thermal panes are much better than they used to be. In fact, the newer ones claim better R value than full foam. True or not, I like the fact they are efficient enough with today's technology and I really don't like the idea of ripping and respraying foam if not needed. Also, I am what I consider to be at least decently mechanically inclined, and if I need to repair a pump or leak 5 years down the road, I want EZ access. But that is a matter of opinion, no right answer, just a personal preference. Back to the topic, I know Costco has had a terrible reputation, but I am also willing to admit that they have done much better over the past 2-3 years. People still hammer them from previous mistakes. The owners of the Evolution Spas are for the most part quite happy from what I can find. As you know Evolution is made by Strong. Divine is made by Clear Water, which is what this thread is about. I think they are a decent spa, again based only on what I read. A 5 years ago the things I read were not so good about Clear Water, but they have made big improvements on their products. Anyway, I know Hot Springs and Sundance and so on make good spas, but it seems everybody is convinced that if you don't pay 6-10K on a spa they have to be junk. I don't believe it anymore. I think it has become very competitive. So tell me your honest opinion on Clear Water Spa's? Decent for the money or not? Thanks Elf. I am being totally honest, I want a tub but want a non foamed decent Spa at the best price. I will be a first time ever spa owner. Looking for non biased advice.
PS: This does have a 24 hr circ pump.
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MarkyMark,
thanks for the reply. as i read your reply , on the full foam, if you reread my response, i didn't say you liked full foam, i acknowledged you wanted thermal chamber... As i stated I sell Clearwater, it is my second line, D1 is my main line, as efficiency ratings,, you have to watch each manufacturer does( or even the dealer, there is a dealer that sells a thermal chamber spa, foam spray arounsd the perimeter, its uneven, no standard depth, they claim r42 value,,,and i say no way,, i know Clearwater states a r20 , If you look at other spas insulated, there are a couple that use Roxul insulation, r22 value,, i believe the foam is r3 per inch of foam, If you buy a thermal chamber make sure the main pipes are on the insulated bed not supported under the bartop by glue joints, that generally were you will see the leak, the other place is the manifold,if they are on the bed and the jets flex going up does not need to be supported, but there are several that the manifold is vertical then the jet flex pipes are horozontal, a lot of water wet. Clearwater has been a pretty good brand have not had many issues,, had some Balboa pack problems( a fuse link left out for 2 pump systems.. The divine spa looks fine,, it has a lot of looks from the Resort series,, and with the 24/7 circ pump which i believe is a must for thermal chamber, But in warmer climates you do have to watch for the thermal creep, higher temp of the water .The warranty is very low which is common with any tub purchased off the net..
I can tell you you will have less leaks on a full foam the thermal chamber, and i can fix just as fast on a foam,, so i would not let that factor in...But if your set on a thermal chamber . they do it right in my opinion.And on if your not spending 6-10k then the spas are junk, I don't think that is 100 persent right, there is some validity to that though. what i mean is this, and i see it all the time,,, You buy the spa off the internet, they deliver it,most people do not know or have the equipment to move the spa.thats the first problem, then once you get it back there, you are on your own to fill it figure out the operation, figure out the chemical usage, how often to maintain.etc...there are some fine spas in the 4-6 k range,,, but the problem is the support after the sale, When you buy from a local dealer this is what happens, you are supported local jobs.....delar brings you the spa, sets in place, electrician hooks up, delaer fills and fires off the spa, makes sure all is good, then goes over the chemical usage and operation, also if lifter installs that as well. everything good .. 1 month to 2 months later you have a problem, you have local support to fall back on, wether it be a chemistry issue of a question on the operation of the spa. if need be they come out, they know the product. On the net you have to order the parts change out yourself...etc....do you see were ia m going with this... is this honest enough for you.i have nothing to hide...Clearwater is a good brand if they were garbage there would be no way i would sell them,,, and the reason i sell both brands I got sick of the guys that only sell the thermal chamber and say youdo not want the full foam spa because they are a nightmare to work on....i disagree, yes there is the occasion that that some take longer to repair, especially if you are not familiar with a particular brand, then i got sick of the guys that only sell the full foam saying that the do not buy the thermal chamber because the always leak.... i also sell a spa with fiberglass insulation and a brand with Roxul insulation, so i can tell you the ins and out of the characteristics of each....good luck on the search
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ejf: Thanks for the reply. That is exactly what I was looking for.... An honest answer and very good points to consider while making a decision. I very much appreciate your explanation and detailed points to consider. I have till fall and this makes me a bit more educated while shopping. Thanks again.
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1/2LB foam is 7.7 per inch but the all those numbers do not mean squat without a good cover. It is not even ethical in my opinion to advertise R Value and have no mention of the cover. What good is it to say you have a R Value of 20, 30, 40... or whatever if the cover is only 10-15? Oh I know the value, it is know fooling the potential buyer that yours is better. ;)
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VTXMAN
great point, cover is huge in the equation of things,,, BUt your right the r value does not tell the whole story...thats why i was pointing out that its just a number, a dealer can print and say whatever they want , most consumers won't even question it...
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I looked at these..... enough said
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????? :D :D :D
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I looked at these..... enough said
An inexpensive option to a quality higher priced tub.
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I looked at these..... enough said
Now here was a real helpful reply. Very helpful and educating.
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I looked at these..... enough said
Now here was a real helpful reply. Very helpful and educating.
Go look closely at the outside and inside of this brand versus a more expensive tub. See which is neater, better orginized under the hood. Look at the fit and finish of both products. If you don't see any difference then your fine with whichever feels better on your backside (butt and wallet) I personaly can see a big difference in build quality between anything sold through a box store versus a dealer. Clearwater makes a fine product but I am sure they got beat up for a cheaper price by Costco so they cut some corners to get there.
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You certainly may be correct but I contacted a person at Clear Water and asked them what is the difference and she said nothing except the warranty. The biggest deal is no dealer support, which is very important IMO. Same exact everything according to her. She also said their manufacturing facility is within a few minutes Of COSTCO headquarters and they have a good relationship. Her name is Nancy and is the one who will reply directly from Clear Water. I don't think they are lesser quality than their regular tub, but I could be wrong. Keep in mind these are not inexpensive as some other spa's offered at COSTCO.
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You certainly may be correct but I contacted a person at Clear Water and asked them what is the difference and she said nothing except the warranty. The biggest deal is no dealer support, which is very important IMO. Same exact everything according to her. She also said their manufacturing facility is within a few minutes Of COSTCO headquarters and they have a good relationship. Her name is Nancy and is the one who will reply directly from Clear Water. I don't think they are lesser quality than their regular tub, but I could be wrong. Keep in mind these are not inexpensive as some other spa's offered at COSTCO.
do you honestly think the lady at clearwater is going to tell you how they meet the price point?
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You certainly may be correct but I contacted a person at Clear Water and asked them what is the difference and she said nothing except the warranty. The biggest deal is no dealer support, which is very important IMO. Same exact everything according to her. She also said their manufacturing facility is within a few minutes Of COSTCO headquarters and they have a good relationship. Her name is Nancy and is the one who will reply directly from Clear Water. I don't think they are lesser quality than their regular tub, but I could be wrong. Keep in mind these are not inexpensive as some other spa's offered at COSTCO.
So if they are making money on the Costco tubs and they are the same as the dealer models, that does not say much for the higher end ones (sarcasm). Warranty will not add that much to the spa.
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Tman122 Clearwater makes a fine product but I am sure they got beat up for a cheaper price by Costco so they cut some corners to get there.
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You certainly may be correct but I contacted a person at Clear Water and asked them what is the difference and she said nothing except the warranty. The biggest deal is no dealer support, which is very important IMO. Same exact everything according to her. She also said their manufacturing facility is within a few minutes Of COSTCO headquarters and they have a good relationship. Her name is Nancy and is the one who will reply directly from Clear Water. I don't think they are lesser quality than their regular tub, but I could be wrong. Keep in mind these are not inexpensive as some other spa's offered at COSTCO.
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do you honestly think the lady at clearwater is going to tell you how they meet the price point?
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Yes I do. She told me the warranty is less and no middle man. That easily explains it to me. Why would she lie? What you give up in warranty plus the middle man makes a BIG difference. I sure don't see some conspiracy to lie. That's ridiculous. I don't like the fact of no dealer support, that's the biggest thing. I have no doubt the quality is exactly the same.
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Tman122 Clearwater makes a fine product but I am sure they got beat up for a cheaper price by Costco so they cut some corners to get there.
You certainly may be correct but I contacted a person at Clear Water and asked them what is the difference and she said nothing except the warranty. The biggest deal is no dealer support, which is very important IMO. Same exact everything according to her. She also said their manufacturing facility is within a few minutes Of COSTCO headquarters and they have a good relationship. Her name is Nancy and is the one who will reply directly from Clear Water. I don't think they are lesser quality than their regular tub, but I could be wrong. Keep in mind these are not inexpensive as some other spa's offered at COSTCO.
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I wonder if this spa is a copy of a standad spa they are building for the dealers. I'd bet that there is no exact duplicate on their dealer side, its probably somewhat unique (either totally or to a degree) so the dealer isn't competing exactly like for like. I'm not sure where to rank Clearwater in the grand scheme of things but quality relative to workmanship should be the same, quality of parts may vary.
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MarkyMark,
the biggest differances to the brands is one the warranty, Clearwater 20 year stucture and shell, 5 years plumbing and electrical and electrical. the Divine, 5 year structure, 2 year plumbing and electrical, 2 year labor, The 2 models made mimic the Resort series, they have synthetic skirt not th RIM skirt, filter container is different, the waterfalls are different, the controls are not the deluxe control system, also the jets are different, the Divines have lights in them,, otherwise about the same,,,the service for the spa is different as in supporting your local spa dealer who will sell you a spa, dleiver the spa, and service it, on the Divine spa there is no gurantee that a local delaer will repair under warranty,
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Yes I do. She told me the warranty is less and no middle man. That easily explains it to me. Why would she lie? What you give up in warranty plus the middle man makes a BIG difference. I sure don't see some conspiracy to lie. That's ridiculous. I don't like the fact of no dealer support, that's the biggest thing. I have no doubt the quality is exactly the same.
Unless Costco is manufacturing hot tubs they are the middle man. Not trying to be a smartazz but your comment made no sense. So if she told you no middle man than she did indeed lie to you.
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Yes I do. She told me the warranty is less and no middle man. That easily explains it to me. Why would she lie? What you give up in warranty plus the middle man makes a BIG difference. I sure don't see some conspiracy to lie. That's ridiculous. I don't like the fact of no dealer support, that's the biggest thing. I have no doubt the quality is exactly the same.
Unless Costco is manufacturing hot tubs they are the middle man. Not trying to be a smartazz but your comment made no sense. So if she told you no middle man than she did indeed lie to you.
This "no middle man" thing comes occasionally and its just untrue salesmanship. How anyone can try to say there is no middle man here is ridiculous, Costco is clearly the middle man here.
middleman [ˈmɪdəlˌmæn]
noun
1. (Business / Commerce) an independent trader engaged in the distribution of goods from producer to consumer
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A couple of random thoughts on the tub in question...
With 65 jets or 85 jets on 2 pumps, I wonder how the hydrotherapy will be. Would be nice to be able to check it out, if it matters to you.
Maybe with all of the lights and waterjets, hydrotherapy doesn't matter. Just get in and let the show begin. Still it seems that there are dubious benefits for added complexity while at the same time cutting back the warranty.
$5800 or $7000 can buy a lot of tub, especially if one is willing to negotiate.
As for how these models compare to Clearwater tubs from a dealer, according to ejf there are differences in the tub itself, not just the abbreviated warranty, no delivery, leap of faith since you can't wet test, possibility of being on your own for trouble shooting and performing a repair and price. Personally, I love Costco and buy a lot of stuff there. However, on pretty much any thing I buy, I can buy it for less elsewhere. But the great thing about Costco is I know that I will get it for a pretty good price, I don't have to go elsewhere and if worst comes to worst I can always bring it back. Tires, blu-ray player, computer, wine even the bleach I put in my tub I can get cheaper elsewhere. For some reason people buying these costco tubs think that there are some kind of super bargian. In my opinion they are not. I think that they are a decent deal and worth what you pay, but no more.
It would be interesting for someone to compare a simliar appearing model with well negotiated price from a Clearwater dealer to the Costco model and make an inventory of the differences.
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comparing the Dl420 divine and the Rio pricing wise, pricing roughly 10,000 with all the goodies,, so there is a price difference, i imagine pricing will cahnge depending on the location but being on the east side of the state from them freight is not bad.. warranty on the Rio is longer.....Jet sitter is this answer your question of price, I will say with the 2 pumps, it moves the water fairly well , but there are diverter valves to move the water around.
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The comments about no middle man are absolutely correct, COSTCO is the middle man, just does it cheaper since they do not have to stock or service it. So yes, there still is a middle man, he is just a CHEAP middle man for obvious reasons. I think that is the point she was making. They are a distributor, not a dealer. So now that this trivial point is put to rest, the fact remains that you give up a lot in warranty and dealer support. That is the difference, and it is a big difference. But I think that is the only difference, not in quality. That said, when I buy it will likely be from a reputable dealer. All I know is it will not be a full foam tub, decent quality with a good warranty and it will have to have a 24 hr circulation pump.
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marky mark it really is just an individual choice
i bought mine from a great Cal Spas dealer &
like the support & white glove delivery.
they helped with concrete slab & electrical vendors
I'm not very handy and they "held my hand"
the whole way and since....
on the other hand a good friend bought a basic
tub from Costco for about 1/2 the price
He's been happy as a lark for going on 4 years....
no problems....uses his more than I use mine.
He says "hell if it breaks I'll fix it & still be ahead"
or "I'll get a new one every 5-6 years and still be ahead"
2EachHisOwn....people make the same decisions every day
with cars and all kinds of products....products at half the cost
are usually not the same quality....but people buy Ford Fusions
instead of a Toyota/Lexus/Benz everyday...it's not just spas & tubs.
Good luck....and happy waters ahead!
(my buddy bought something like this...no it's not "5 Star"..he knows & can live with it)
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11630136&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|50126|87124|4640&N=4047223&Mo=10&pos=0&No=9&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=4640&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&ec=BC-EC33047-Cat87124&topnav= (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11630136&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|50126|87124|4640&N=4047223&Mo=10&pos=0&No=9&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=4640&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&ec=BC-EC33047-Cat87124&topnav=)
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Thanks for the replies. I at least have time as I am not likely going to get till fall unless I find a very good sale on a acceptable spa.
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Well, here is another to ask about. COSTCO now has "Divine Spa's", made by Clear Water Spa's. From everything I can find on Clear Water Spa's, they seem to be a very good tub. They are not as inexpensive as the others offered at COSTCO, other than the obvious shorter warranty you will give up (like all COSTCO tubs) How are these tubs? Anyone with any experience with them? I like the fact they have a circulation pump and I like the fact they are not a full foam tub. I do not want a full foam tub, that's just me. Anyway, all comments will be welcomed by me. Every time I get close to purchasing a tub, something comes up. I will have one before fall, that's all I know for sure. Thanks all.
Just curious, did you buy the Divine from costco? Looking to make the leap myself and would appreciate any and all feedbacks.
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Hi Mark.
Are you a member on Tundra Talk?
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Not a member on tundra talk. At least I don't think so..... LOL
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So, did you get the clearwater tub??? I'd like to hear some updates as to how it's been running and if you are happy with the purchase. Multiple posters in here said there were getting a clearwater tub. I'd like to hear your thoughts after owning for a while.
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Clearwater's quality and support has gone to complete garbage over the last couple of years, so I can only imagine the divine aren't faring any better. Especially since they use lower quality components, despite what the lady at the factory said. I have seen them both in person and can assure you that the divine are not the same quality.
Also, as said before, Costco is indeed the middle man. They also do not have the savings you get when shipping an entire truckload of spas vs every single one solo, which many dealers do. Shipping is expensive. The costco spas also typically get dropped off at your curb with zero knowledge, thus orientation or advice. Also, better hope you don't cause any damage trying to get it from your curb to your backyard. There are other intangibles that also often failed to get factored into these comparisons.
Full disclosure, I'm a brick and mortar dealer and thus take my word for what it is as a "competitor", but I've also shown myself to be fairly objective I believe in offering my opinions.
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I've read many posts on the other forums about clearwater, tubs probably 4-5 years old with many happy customers. I guess the Divine you may have to watch out for cost cutting, but the clearwater memebers on the other forum had had good things to say about their tubs.
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Ditto what Sam said. I sold Clearwater briefly back in 2008. Horrible quality control. Every spa on our initial order (turned out to be our only order) had issues. All were issues that should have been caught during water testing which lead me to believe they don't water test their spas. Once the stupid issues were resolved, I did have pretty good reliability, but that was one truckload only. Even up until last year I dealt with Clearwater a bit regarding service. They only had one in-house tech, hard to get a hold of and sometimes took days to return voice messages.
If Clearwater was priced like an inexpensive hot tub, like Nordic or Viking, I would maybe look past the issues, but for how much they were from a wholesale standpoint, no way would I accept their issues and lack of dealer support.
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Depending on where your located, you may be able to purchase a Bullfrog hot tub from Costco. I know they have events during the year that feature them. They are a quality tub and offer a good warranty.
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Buying food, etc. is great from CostCo. But would you buy a car from Costco? Would you buy a house from CostCo? Saving money is always a great thing to do. But think long-term. This is a poor play when buying from box stores: No support long-term. Yeah, they may "offer" delivery, warranty, but get into the nitty-gritty: Delivery will be drop-ship, service will be by some hired-gun, and who works on it when its out of warranty? Is there a reason the price is lower? Its probably b/c the unit is some special-stripped down version of the real thing. Maybe it's not. Point is- Most of the time when people try to save money in this industry, they end up paying way more in the long run vs. had they done it right the first time.
Sorry to be the contrarian. I am not against CostCo. I am just against hot tubs bought at CostCo- Seen too often what happens post-sale when this action occurs.
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Imagine this, your a manufacturer that produces 5000 tubs a year. A company like Costco comes to you and says " we want to buy 1000 units from you but we are only going to pay you this much per unit" The manufacturer of course says wow 1000 units? You bet we can, and Costco purchasing and manufacturer sales shake hands. The production foreman gets orders from management to make them fast and use less fiberglass, insulation, glue, ect. to meet the price point. Everyone is happy except one person. And that guy was happy when he bought the tub cause he saved money over the quality manufacturers tub. But then he realized that it costs a ton to operate and it developed a couple leaks in the first year and the shell seemed a little flimsy in the middle and the service sucked. They wanted him to install it and fix it himself.
Sounds like a good deal to me.
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Imagine this, your a manufacturer that produces 5000 tubs a year. A company like Costco comes to you and says " we want to buy 1000 units from you but we are only going to pay you this much per unit" The manufacturer of course says wow 1000 units? You bet we can, and Costco purchasing and manufacturer sales shake hands. The production foreman gets orders from management to make them fast and use less fiberglass, insulation, glue, ect. to meet the price point. Everyone is happy except one person. And that guy was happy when he bought the tub cause he saved money over the quality manufacturers tub. But then he realized that it costs a ton to operate and it developed a couple leaks in the first year and the shell seemed a little flimsy in the middle and the service sucked. They wanted him to install it and fix it himself.
Sounds like a good deal to me.
then fast forward 2-3 years....Manufacturer realizes they made a big mistake because Costco does not support and/or service tubs in the field and local dealers typically want nothing to do with it, manufacturer pulls plug on the wonderful "Costco Program" and all associated parts/information with it so now 3 years later the end consumer is stuck with a "Island Breeze" or whatever name they slap on them and now you must go to a local dealer for advice, water testing, replacement filters & water-care products, service, winterizations, etc....My advice, skip all of that, spend a little more money with a local dealer (It's not like a local dealer is overcharging, its like Tman said you are literally getting a better built spa anyway) and be happy in the end! Good Luck!
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Ditto what Sam said. I sold Clearwater briefly back in 2008. Horrible quality control. Every spa on our initial order (turned out to be our only order) had issues. All were issues that should have been caught during water testing which lead me to believe they don't water test their spas. Once the stupid issues were resolved, I did have pretty good reliability, but that was one truckload only. Even up until last year I dealt with Clearwater a bit regarding service. They only had one in-house tech, hard to get a hold of and sometimes took days to return voice messages.
If Clearwater was priced like an inexpensive hot tub, like Nordic or Viking, I would maybe look past the issues, but for how much they were from a wholesale standpoint, no way would I accept their issues and lack of dealer support.
Not much has changed with Clearwater the company