Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Hot Spring Spas => Topic started by: honeypot on April 07, 2010, 04:49:39 am
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Hello.
I am looking at the Tempo Hot Spot or the Vista or Envoy Hot Spring. I wet tested the Tempo and the Vista/Vanguard/Sovereign this past Saturday and liked the Vista. I felt the Vista may be a little large so I am going to wet test the Envoy this weekend.
Of course the price of the Hot Spot is something I like vs the Hot Spring tubs. However, I'm not sure that I will be getting the same quality and performance from the Hot Spot. I also like the idea of the Salt Water Cleaning system (ACE) that is only available in the Hot Spring tubs (for an extra G). I wonder if that is worth it?
All experienced hot tubbers please help me with this decision. I like the dealer and he is not trying to push either on me..,. he simply states the differences. One big difference I see is the warranty (2 years vs 5 years). Wonder if hot tubs malfunction in that short of time frame? Or maybe I should consider that to be related to the overall craftmanship.
Hope to get some responses to help in my decision. ::)
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I could be wrong as I am not a HS dealer, but I am pretty sure that the Hot Spot line has a one year warranty, and not a two year like you had mentioned. Again, I could be wrong as that may have changed as well. But, just a few weeks back a HS dealer said that the warranty didnt change, and if that is the case, it is a one year warranty. Just a FYI.
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Welcome to the forum,
I recently went with my sister while she looked at the same tubs. She also looked at one of the Limelight spas and chose between the limelight and a Vanguard and ended up with the Vanguard. Unrelated, my non-HS tub had a couple of problems in the first 2 years and then has been fine since. Good luck, there will be tradeoffs either way, go with the one you are comfortable in. I'll let others answer the salt system question.
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I could be wrong as I am not a HS dealer, but I am pretty sure that the Hot Spot line has a one year warranty, and not a two year like you had mentioned. Again, I could be wrong as that may have changed as well. But, just a few weeks back a HS dealer said that the warranty didnt change, and if that is the case, it is a one year warranty. Just a FYI.
Could it be the dealer is offering a 2nd year on his own?
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I am a Hot Spring/Hot Spot dealer. Hot Spot warranty is 2 years. Although it is a shorter warranty, standards are the same. Multiple testing. We have found, because they are a little simpler, the Hot Spot line is relatively trouble free. Warranty has a cost, so, if the Hot Spots had the same warranty as the Hot Spring, price would go up.
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I am a Hot Spring/Hot Spot dealer. Hot Spot warranty is 2 years. Although it is a shorter warranty, standards are the same. Multiple testing. We have found, because they are a little simpler, the Hot Spot line is relatively trouble free. Warranty has a cost, so, if the Hot Spots had the same warranty as the Hot Spring, price would go up.
Oops, I was wrong. :-X Thanks for the clarification Dan!
I guess this is why I was wrong. When I type in "Hot Spot Spas Warranty," this was the first page that pullled up for me. I guess they need to update their website!! ;)
http://www.ohiopools.com/hot-spot-warranty.html (http://www.ohiopools.com/hot-spot-warranty.html)
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One big difference I see is the warranty (2 years vs 5 years). Wonder if hot tubs malfunction in that short of time frame? Or maybe I should consider that to be related to the overall craftmanship.
Warranties are NOT free, they are included in the price. Length of warranty should never be equated directly to quality; I've seen poor quality spas with long warranties and good quality spas with short warranties. What Watkins has done is create a Hot Spot spa for people unable/unwilling to purchase their premium Hot Spring spa line. The fact that one has a shorter warranty is simply a way to bring the cost down because if they had given it the 5 year warranty they would have had to charge more for the product.
Compare the features, length of warranty, price, how well each fits you, the jets, the look, the size, the layout… and decide which on you truly want understanding that whichever you get will be in your back yard for the next decade+.
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Here is the link the the Hot Spot warranty:
http://www.hotspothottubs.com/pdfs/warranty.pdf (http://www.hotspothottubs.com/pdfs/warranty.pdf)
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It seems that most of the comments have focused on the warranty... how about the continuous pumping that the Hot Spring has and the Hot Spot doesn't (i.e., is it a big disadvantage to circulate the water twice a day vs the continuous pump). How about the salt water treatment that is available in the Hot Spring, but not the Hot Spot. That is something that is really interesting to me as far as ease in maintenance of the water and dryness of the skin. What are 'your' feelings? Is it worth it?
This decision is made so difficult because of the price difference between the two. I am looking at a dealer who is offering the Tempo at 5,995 and the Envoy at 10,995 (without the salt water purification system... that would be an addition 1,000). This price includes everything except the electrical work. Good prices?
Some more information from experienced hot tubbers would be so appreciated. I'm getting anxious. :-\ Thanks a bunch. honeypot
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I personally like having the 24 hour pump. I just like the fact that the water is always circulating. The cost to do that is very little. If I had a swimming pool and could circulate the pool all the time, I would, but the cost to do that is prohibitive. However, the Hot Spots as do other brands of spas without 24 hour circulation still have more than adequate circulation to keep your water clean, clear and hot. There are no big drawbacks to not having a 24 hour pump. The main key is to get the water to turn over a certain number of times a day. Both methods get you there.
The ACE system is still so new that it is hard to comment on. Most people like salt because the water feels "softer." That is one of the reasons salt systems have become so popular with pools. Salt systems on pools tend to cause a lot of corrosion of metal products as well as degradation of natural stone products around the pool. From what I've seen so far with the ACE system, they are doing things differently. But again, the system is so new that it is hard to say if the $1,000 system is "worth it." I think the worth is up to the consumer.
There is a big difference in price and I can see where that could make it difficult. Wet testing should tell you a lot. The Envoy is a great spa. One of my favorites. I would seriously consider it for my next hot tub. However, my wife is only 5'2" and she refuses to wet test so I'm wary of getting an Envoy for myself. I'm worried it will be too deep for her.
Some of the things to consider if you want that add cost to a Hot Spring are things like the control panel. There is a huge difference between the two. The Hot Spring has a lot more functionality than the Hot Spot. The water fall on the Hot Spring is different and more expensive. The Hot Spring is full foamed with different layers of different densities of foam. The Hot Spot is full foam, but the method is different. I believe the method for the Hot Spot is less costly. The warranty as has been mentioned is three years longer. That costs more.
If you feel like you can absolutely live without all those things, then go with the Hot Spot. I know how I am. I want the "stuff." I'm looking at cars right now. I'm all but ruling out cars that require me to put a key in the ignition. My current car has that and I really like it. So now I don't want to do without it. I can't buy a Camry LE because it doesn't have the "stuff" I like in it. I would buy a Camry XLE because it does have the stuff I like. Nearly identical cars, same quality (current issues aside), same size, etc. But I would pay more for it just because I like it better.
Either way you're going to have a good spa. They will both last a long time. I would try to negotiate a little on the prices to see if you can do better. Be prepared to walk if they don't negotiate with you. Leave it with them that if they can find a way to do better that they can call you. Once you feel like they aren't going to go down anymore, then go ahead and make your deal.
Good luck with this. I hope I've answered more of your questions.
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Thank you, Vanguard and everyone for your comments.
I have had some hesitation regarding the ACE as it is so new. For years and years people have enjoyed hot tubs without the need for a salt water system.
I have wet tested the Tempo, Vista, Vanguard. I am to test the Envoy this Friday. I was really focused on the Hot Spring line up and didn't give the Tempo the attention I should have. After much thought later about the 6 grand price difference I now think I should give the Tempo another wet test.
I did love the water fall on the Vista and all the gadgets. However, would I rather still have 6,000 in my pocket?
Still not clear on where they come up with twice the cost of the Tempo... seems outrageous. It's like comparing apples and oranges because of the price difference... makes me wonder if the Hot Spot is junk or something. Maybe that's the idea?
I am 6 feet tall so a small tub would never do for me.
One other thing, how are the spas in the summer months... I'm hoping they are cool enough to enjoy on a hot summer day. I understand that they only get down to 80. Any experience with using it to cool off after a hard day of yardwork, golf, etc.?
As far as the price goes, the dealer said that was his bottom price... does it seem too high? I should push him more, eh?
Thanks everyone!
Pam
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The Hot Spots are not junk. They build the same quality into Hot Spot as all their other spas.
Other than some of the extra stuff and warranty, Watkins also sells the lower end spas with a lower margin. The dealers tend to that as well. The margins on the premium spas are higher. That is the way most products are sold.
Hot Spot was designed to be a price point spa to help those that didn't want to pay the big bucks still get into a high quality spa. Hot Spot is a completely different spa than it was when it was first introduced.
Regarding summer, I've always kept my spa hot in the summer because I still like the hydrotherapy that time of year as well. Even with the heat outside, I've still found that I enjoy the hot water to sooth my muscles and relax at the end of the day.
To keep a spa cooler in the summer, you have to turn down the temperature and keep the cover cracked open. Otherwise, you really won't lose much heat. Especially with spas with a 24 hour pump. Hot Spring and others use some of the heat from the circ pump to heat the water to utilize more of the energy and not waste it.
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Vanguard,
You are really helping me see the light. My comment about "junk" was that perhaps the price difference was a sales ploy to make a consumer think so... (i.e., you get what you pay for and if this spa is thousands of dollars cheaper than a Hot Spring maybe there is a reason...).
I'm not clear on what you mean by "lower margin" or "margins" in general. Perhaps you could explain that for me.
I haven't been on these forums long. Is your name Vanguard because that is the spa you have? Are you involved in the sales of hot tubs as I see some on this forum are?
I am really glad to have a knowledgeable person giving me feedback.
BTW, I have asked the dealer to turn the temp down all the way on the Envoy so I can see what it feels like. When I get in spas be it in the winter or summer, I do not like them real hot. It makes me feel uncomfortable.
Thanks so much.
Pam
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BTW, I have asked the dealer to turn the temp down all the way on the Envoy so I can see what it feels like. When I get in spas be it in the winter or summer, I do not like them real hot. It makes me feel uncomfortable.
Thanks so much.
Pam
I imagine most dealers keep the temp at about 101º but there is a big difference in feel between 99º and 101º so you don't need it lowered much to feel a difference. Unless it is very hot outside in the summer when some people use it as a cold spa most people will not go lower than 98 or 99º the other 10 months which is about body temp so I'd have them lower it to 99º if higher temps are not your thing (not mine either, wife likes 102º and I like 100º).
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:D Spatech_tuo ... is that from Mr. Mom? 220, 221... A funny movie! :D
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Honey, I bought a Hot Spot La Palma. This was the 2009 model it was installed in March. I have loved it. The jets are just as powerful as in the Hotsprings line. The big differences I noticed when looking at the two lines was the warranty, the circ pump, the control panel is simpler (although not that hard to use) and the heater is stainless steel in the La Palma. I think I read somewhere in the Hot Springs line they are titanium. Not sure this makes a "huge" difference.
I will say you can program the length of your filtration cycles and if you use the tub while the filtration cycle is on it extends it after you are done using the tub. Also I added the Freshwater III system to the La Palma. It seems like I use less chemicals and don't get the harsh chemical smells when I am done using the hot tub. I know that is a big selling point of the ozone systems. I believe that system cost me around 200 bucks.
I couldn't afford at this time a 7-8K tub so I settled for the lower model. I will say it has worked fine and the water stays sparkling clear with the ozone system installed.
I know I have only owned the tub for a couple of months so far, but as of right now I would buy another Hot Spot tub.
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Thanks, dasno!
So far I'm feeling right in "Tempo" with everyone. (I love bad jokes) :D
I have been feeling quite a bit of anxiety over the price of the Hot Spring. It's funny because when I first saw the price next to the tub my reaction was :o But, for some reason your mindset changes and you start thinking "well, maybe this is what I need to pay".
I'm not that easily sold though. I gave myself time to let the price sink in and am certainly now rethinking the Tempo. As a matter of fact, I soak again tomorrow.. blub, blub, blub 8)
Pam aka honeypot
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Margin is a short way to say profit margin. Typically products that are price point products will generate less profit than higher end products. Of course, both the manufacturer and dealer can do this because they don't have to worry about covering a warranty for as long of a period.
I have owned two Vanguards. I loved them both. I do not have one right now.
As far as my affiliation, I've been in the pool and spa business since the mid-80's. I currently work for a manufacturer of products for swimming pools. I've been involved in many aspects of both pools and spas for many years.
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HP one other thing I had trouble with when deciding on the Hot Spot was I couldn't find too many reviews on the hot spot by owners. That made my decision at first a little uneasy. However the dealer I got my tub from was 1st class all the way and I know he has been in business since the 80's which made me feel more easy.
Like a lot of these guys say on here if you got a trust worthy dealer it makes buying the hot tub from him a lot more easy....
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Thanks again, Vanguard. You are a real asset to this forum.
As you can see from my previous post, I am Tempo bound... soaking in the Tempo and the Vista tomorrow. This time am going to give the Tempo its deserved attention. :-*
Thank you and I will let you, et al know how it goes.
Pam aka honeypot
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dasno.
I kind of like this dealer. He's told me a couple of things that I've read differing opinions on. For example, I live where the water is very hard and have a water softener for inside the home and hard water outside. He said to definitely fill the tub with the softened water; easier to add than to take away, or something like that. I've read just the opposite.
I guess I'm a very skeptical kind of gal... it's the world we live in, I suppose. :-X
HP
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While I would never add softened water to a swimming pool, if you have extremely hard water, adding soft water followed by adding calcium to your water should be fine.
You can have your tap water tested to get the level of your calcium hardness. If it is too high, you might add half soft and half hard. That might be a good way to keep your levels good right at the time you fill it.
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I'm off to test soon. How about the wood frame vs the plastic(?) frame. I noticed that the Vanguard has the plastic, but none of the other Hot Spring lineup. Hopefully, I'll hear something back before I leave. Thanks. HP
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I don't think the frame is anything you need to worry about. I think you'll find all the frames with the top companies are structurally sound.
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Hello All!
I am now the proud owner of a Tempo! I soaked in it and found it to be wonderful. I actually like the lounge in it better than in the Vista. I might have wished for the lighted fountain in the Vista, but that was about it. Otherwise, it is perfect.
The guy I hired to do the excavation for where my tubby is going will be here soon so I must run.
More later and many thanks to all of you. You really helped me.
:-*
Pam aka honeypot
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HP,
Congrats on your purchase... I hope you find your tempo as relaxing and comfortable as I find my Hot Spot!
Did you get the Freshwater III system put in it?
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Hello All!
I am now the proud owner of a Tempo! I soaked in it and found it to be wonderful.
Pam aka honeypot
...and thats why we recommend a wet test. This way, when you purchase you know its the right spa for you. Sometimes we hear from someone who bought a spa that doesn't fit right but they find out when its already in their back yard.
Congrats.
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Way to go!! We're glad for you. You'll really enjoy it. I'll bet you're really glad you wet tested.
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Hello All.
It's the middle of the night and I'm wide awake. I think I'm overtired.
I am having the walk out basement patio expanded for my Tempo instead of having the decks rebuilt to handle a hot tub (that was mucho dinero). They excavated the earth on Saturday to level an area that will have pavers and a retaining wall. A lot of stress with the planning; not to mention communicating with "Team Tempo" as I am calling them. The beer at the end of the day seems to help with the motivational factor. The physical work for me was to relocate and plant all the shrubs that had been growing there. I've come to learn that physical work is not nearly as tiring as mental stress. I'll get into the neighbor issue later... ugh.
The dealer came out today to inspect the site and take a sample of my inside softened water. He still thinks filling the tub with soft water is best. He said the site is going to be great. I hope so - he said this tub will weigh 6,000 pds when filled. I hope "Team Tempo" knows what they are doing ::)
Alarm just went off so it's time get ready for my real job.
More later.
Thanks!
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Congratulations~ welcome to "SpaTopia." May you soak long and prosper...
As to the soft water issue, be sure you are clear on this: you should NOT fill a tub with soft water and leave it that way. Water which is too soft can and will damage expensive things in the tub, and it will cause foaming which is not fun. What I think your dealer is telling you is to fill with soft water, BUT then add calcium hardness to bring the water up to a level of hardness which will protect your warranty, your equipment, and your tubbing experience. Many people, including some here on this board, do that every time they change the water.
Another way to do the same thing would be to fill the tub with a mixture of hard water and soft - but you need to know a few things about that as well - for most folks adding about 25% soft water is just right. That is roughly the last few inches when filling. Because of the crazy shapes of the benches and footwell area, you don't have nearly as much water volume down low as you do at the very top of the tub. Fill the tub with hard water, stopping just about three inches short. Finish with soft. Test, and you should be just right. Some people fill with hard water all the way up, but then top off with soft as water evaporates and gets splashed out. That also works.
Not trying to make this sound hard - once you find the system which works for you it will become second nature, and will be quite easy to repeat. Also - read about "Chas' Law" - change water once at the end of the first 30 days of ownership.
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I think one of the main keys is to know what the hardness level is coming out of the tap. You may be fine adding the tap water, but you might already have more than enough calcium. Where I used to live, the water was so soft I had to add a fair amount of calcium to the water. Where I live now, you can add tap water, pH balancing chemicals and chlorine and you're done. I'd rather not go with soft water because, to me, it is easier just to go with the tap.
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When he took the sample of water, he only took from inside where the water is softened. He didn't want a sample from the outside faucets where the water is hard. He seems to really think that adding the softened water and then treating it is the best way to go :-\
Perhaps it is easier to add the minerals that softening the water removes than to take away too much of the minerals.
Tomorrow morning the pavers/sand/rocks or whatever arrive. The plan is to put a layer of pebbles, then a layer of sand then the pavers then more sand in between the pavers. However, they still have to level the area that has been dug and it is a large area. I will put some pics out here soon.