Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: gordholio99 on January 07, 2010, 12:48:10 pm
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Hi:
I'm in the process of shopping for a new hot tub. I know there's a huge debate over the best insulation method (solid-packed foam vs open-cavity thermal), and I don't want to further that debate. My concern isn't which is better because I'm likely going to go with a foam-filled unit as most of the better manufacturers utilize that method. Moreover, the selection of spas is a bit limited where I live, and it's hard to find ANY spa locally that's thermally insulated.
Anyway, my *real" concern is the expense involved in finding leaks, clearing away the foam, and re-foaming foam-filled tubs that have sprung an interior leak. I know this will happen eventually, and I've heard some real horror stories as to how many hours/how many dollars it will cost me. So...are there any knowledgeable folks and/or servicepeople here who might be able to clue me in?
Furthermore, I'm thinking that if my foam-filled tub springs an interior leak many years down the road and I'm already going to spend a bunch of money to peel away big chunks of foam around that leak and repair it, it might be a good idea at the time to hack out ALL the foam, replace all the plumbing, and then replace all the foam. That way, I wouldn't be forced to go through a ton of hassle and cash outlay again when a second or third leak inevitably pops up.
Sorry for babbling. Hope I made sense. :-) Thanks so much in advacne to anyone who replies.
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I'm not sure what exactly your question is so I'll just comment on a couple things you said..
1) I don't agree that "I know this will happen eventually" when you talk about leaks. In fact if you do get a leak more than likely it'll be in the equipment compartment where a pump is attached or something of that like. I have a 9 yr old full foam spa that I've never had to deal with a leak on and I expect it'll run another 9 years without that changing. Leaks obviously can happen at a certain % but they are not an eventuality.
2) If a leak appears I'd fix it. I would NOT arbitrarily replace all the other plumbing around it that doesn't have a problem unless I have some reason to believe the glue was bad on that spa or saw some reason to do so.
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Thanks for the reply, spatech. I knew I'd babbled too much. :-)
I guess I'm looking for an idea of the general cost of repairing an "interior" (for want of a better expression) leak that's buried within the foam of a fully-foamed hot tub shell. I'm not a spa technician or repair person, so I'd like to get an idea before I buy whether I'd be looking at a couple of hours and a $100 bill, a half day and a $250 bill, or far more than that.
And yes, I do know that each situation will be different. Just trying to get a ballpark. As you probably know, many "thermal" manufacturers use the ease of access to interior plumping as a selling feature, and I wonder if it's as big a deal as they say.
Thanks again.
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Full foam spas are much less prone to leaking due to the plumbing being fully supported. In fact, it's actually QUITE RARE for a full foam spa to get a leak under the foam. As far as repair time, it really depends on the experience of the person doing the repair. For someone that's never done it before, figure on hours. For someone experienced, 1 hour isn't unusual.
BTW, $100 to get a service tech to your house for 2 hours? Goooooooood luck. Round here, 2 hours would run you in the neighborhood of $250
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Full foam spas are much less prone to leaking due to the plumbing being fully supported. In fact, it's actually QUITE RARE for a full foam spa to get a leak under the foam. As far as repair time, it really depends on the experience of the person doing the repair. For someone that's never done it before, figure on hours. For someone experienced, 1 hour isn't unusual.
BTW, $100 to get a service tech to your house for 2 hours? Goooooooood luck. Round here, 2 hours would run you in the neighborhood of $250
The other point is that thermo pane spas are often not well insulated (IMO, though some will point to a couple brands that do it fairly well) and you end up paying $30, $50, $70 ... more per month to insulate them versus a one of the well insulated full foam brands so the logic of saving $ on future repairs by avoiding fully insulated foamed spas is shortsighted IMO.
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Hi:
I'm in the process of shopping for a new hot tub. I know there's a huge debate over the best insulation method (solid-packed foam vs open-cavity thermal), and I don't want to further that debate. My concern isn't which is better because I'm likely going to go with a foam-filled unit as most of the better manufacturers utilize that method. Moreover, the selection of spas is a bit limited where I live, and it's hard to find ANY spa locally that's thermally insulated.
Anyway, my *real" concern is the expense involved in finding leaks, clearing away the foam, and re-foaming foam-filled tubs that have sprung an interior leak. I know this will happen eventually, and I've heard some real horror stories as to how many hours/how many dollars it will cost me. So...are there any knowledgeable folks and/or servicepeople here who might be able to clue me in?
Furthermore, I'm thinking that if my foam-filled tub springs an interior leak many years down the road and I'm already going to spend a bunch of money to peel away big chunks of foam around that leak and repair it, it might be a good idea at the time to hack out ALL the foam, replace all the plumbing, and then replace all the foam. That way, I wouldn't be forced to go through a ton of hassle and cash outlay again when a second or third leak inevitably pops up.
Sorry for babbling. Hope I made sense. :-) Thanks so much in advacne to anyone who replies.
I've done a few repairs on fully foamed in hot tubs. Most only took a couple hours but a couple were tougher. But these repairs were never repaired because the tub "just started leaking" All but one of the repairs I have done on these tubs were because of freeze damage.
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Thanks, Tman. Yeah, the general impression here and at other forums is that hard to access leaks in fully foamed spas simply don't happen much. I am becoming more convinced now that that should not play a role in my spa-buying decision.
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My Sundance has been in operation since late 1989.
The summer of 2009 a leak developed in a 1 1/2" main suction line Tee with a 1/2" bull. The T is located under the filter cavity. Why did it leak? Well, the 1/2" hose into the T hardened with age and ozone and began dripping at the fitting proper.
The repair is very difficult as there is no room to properly lay under the tub and handle a drill, swab glue.and install a new section of hose with a coupling. Resulting in a partially successfully repair.
The leak slowed down to requiring repleshment of 3" of water once a month.
So the leak will continue to drip until April or May when I can empty the spa and jack it up to really repair the joint.
In the meanwhile I replaced the removed original foam from the work zone (24" x 28"x 24") with standard home wall type insulation and closed up the panel for the winter.
How I found the leak area was to probe the insulation with a sharpened wooden dowel.
The instant spa leak stuff in a bottle did not work as this was a suction line and thus the stuff did not get into the leaking fitting. Actually the leak stops when the jet pump is in operation.
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This is actually a pretty simple repair. Once you locate the exact area of the leak, partially plug off the the filter till air is sucked through the leak. Slap a little primer on the leak (it'll get pulled into the void), then slap a little glue on it (it will also get pulled in). Reduce the blockage on the filter by about 50%, and leave the pump running for an hour. Should be fixed.
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This is actually a pretty simple repair. Once you locate the exact area of the leak, partially plug off the the filter till air is sucked through the leak. Slap a little primer on the leak (it'll get pulled into the void), then slap a little glue on it (it will also get pulled in). Reduce the blockage on the filter by about 50%, and leave the pump running for an hour. Should be fixed.
Doc your not supposed to be giving away top secret repair stuff. How do you think we justify 75-95 bucks an hour??
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Thank you Doc. It's too cold to attempt now, but I will get back to it soon.
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I thought I would throw a recent experience in here. I worked on two leaking spas in the same day...One was an Arctic that had no foam around the plumbing and the other was a Cal Spa with full foam.
I had to pull every panel off the Arctic because there were water droplets all over the place and no indication of what side it was coming from. On the call I pulled the panel that water was dripping from and followed the wet foam to the brown and discolored foam.
Because I had to "re-foam" the Cal both spas took about the same amount of time to fix but the Arctic was harder to diagnose and to actually get to the problem.
On the Cal the digging of the foam was messier than it was on the Arctic and spraying the new foam is also always messy but I'm well practiced and it worked fine.
We were at subzero temps and both spas had been down for a few days. When I got into the heart of the foam on the cal I actually found warm water locked in the foam. The arctic had frozen and broken a main trunk line in addition to the original leak that caused the system to drop below filter level and leak.
In this scenario I preferred working on the full foam…. Had the leak been more obvious on the Arctic it would have the easy one with less prep and finish work.
Overall both were just about the same amount of time to complete.
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Awesome reply Stuart. Great info - that's exactly the type of stuff I'm looking for. Thanks for taking the time to write it all down.
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The following is just my experience with working on Arctics. The leaks are VERY easy to find and MUCH easier to fix. I would find it hard to believe in most circumstances that a full foam leak is fixed in the same amount of time as a thermopane leak.
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The following is just my experience with working on Arctics. The leaks are VERY easy to find and MUCH easier to fix. I would find it hard to believe in most circumstances that a full foam leak is fixed in the same amount of time as a thermopane leak.
I guess the question one should consider as a higher priority is "Which one is more LIKELY to have a leak in the first place" and the answer to that would be the thermal-pane design is more prone to leaks as there is less support to the plumbing and thus more likely to develop leaks. An ounce of prevention (full foam's support superiority) is better than a pound of cure (patching a leak in a thermal pane design). Now, I am not saying that ALL full foam spas are less prone to leaking. Truth is that a cheap spa, is a cheap spa and therefore even if it is full foam, it may well have poor support (e.g. some no-name brand). I am also not saying that ALL thermo-pane designs have poor support. Truth is that a well built, name brand tub (like Artic) is probably less prone to leaking than any of the other only slightly lesser named spas (including emerald and others). So, spend the $'s up front and you won't have to worry about leaks as much as if you try to "get by on the cheap".
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You are correct that some of the main mfg's rely on foam to support the hose and keep them from developing leaks long term. But, what if you are one of those alleged unlucky ones that does develop a leak. I also agree that taking the proper measures when the tub is being built is the best route to go. Arctic for instance uses an upgraded hosing and fitting system that prevents leaks long term. They do happen, and they arent any more frequent than a full foam tub, but you can get to them easily and fix.
Just my .02 cents
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Do I hear the whinny of a beaten horse?... ::)
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Do I hear the whinny of a beaten horse?... ::)
Nope just sharing my .02 cents like everyone else...
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Do I hear the whinny of a beaten horse?... ::)
Whiny?? ;) Two pages is hardly a beaten horse. Hell this is the most replies this forum has received in over a year and a half. You mods should love this. ::)
In regards to the Arctic's and TP spas, many people will say that they leak easier because they don't have the foam support backing on the plumbing like FF spas do. This may be true of lots of cheaper TP spas. But, Arctic does use foam in certain specific areas where they will take about 2-3" of foam or more under hoses near the floor for support. Also, hoses near the top will also be supported near the top with foam backing near the shell. So, even though Arctic does use perimeter insulation, there is still adequate support of the plumbing throughout. That's the beauty of owning an Arctic. You have the energy efficiency of a FF spa, and the ease of serviceability of a TP spa. The best of both worlds all in one spa!! ;) ;)
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I guess my point is that it is migrating toward the full foam discussion that has been rehashed so many times. The question, I believed, was just to clear up how difficult a repair would be in full foamed vs. thermopane (no manufacturers named).The info is good and YES it's great to see the forum activity increasing, but now we are talking specifics and your last post has made it into a sales pitch for Arctic..that is my personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the moderators of this forum ;D ;D ;) time for a beer..or two ::)
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Hey all:
I'm the original poster, and to me (and likely to any other relative newbies looking for answers before they set out $8000 or more), this is far from a beaten horse. And yes, this is one of the busier threads in some time. So...thanks again to all who've replied here.
It seems to me from my rookie perspective (and waaay too much research!) that "partially" foamed spas make a lot of sense. Beer Man, I don't know if you're an Arctic salesperson (your post is quite glowing), but from all my research thus far, it does seem like Arctic handles the insulation question sensibly. Generally, I've found that even those who tend to favor the full foam approach for its insulative qualities (and plumbing line support) admit that the Arctic approach is pretty good. Foam in the keys spots to aid with support and to improve insulation - but not so much that it would take hours to reach an internal leak - and added "thermal pane" insulation around the perimeter.
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I guess my point is that it is migrating toward the full foam discussion that has been rehashed so many times. The question, I believed, was just to clear up how difficult a repair would be in full foamed vs. thermopane (no manufacturers named).The info is good and YES it's great to see the forum activity increasing, but now we are talking specifics and your last post has made it into a sales pitch for Arctic..that is my personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the moderators of this forum ;D ;D ;) time for a beer..or two ::)
(http://i.blogg.no/500x397/http:/mrts.blogg.no/images/salesman_1231321038.jpg)
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;D ;D ;)
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That guy ROCKS! I gotta buy my hot tub from him.
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Hey all:
I'm the original poster, and to me (and likely to any other relative newbies looking for answers before they set out $8000 or more), this is far from a beaten horse. And yes, this is one of the busier threads in some time. So...thanks again to all who've replied here.
It seems to me from my rookie perspective (and waaay too much research!) that "partially" foamed spas make a lot of sense. Beer Man, I don't know if you're an Arctic salesperson (your post is quite glowing), but from all my research thus far, it does seem like Arctic handles the insulation question sensibly. Generally, I've found that even those who tend to favor the full foam approach for its insulative qualities (and plumbing line support) admit that the Arctic approach is pretty good. Foam in the keys spots to aid with support and to improve insulation - but not so much that it would take hours to reach an internal leak - and added "thermal pane" insulation around the perimeter.
Hi Gordholio,
Glad to hear that this forum is helping you. I agree, I thought this was far from a deadhorse as well. I was just having a little fun with Boni. Yes, I am an Arctic salesman, as most on here I think know already, so that is why I was having a little fun with it. I didn't think I had any more of a sales tone in my post then the Watkins boys that come on here. Just saying..., but if I offended anyone in anyway, well I,m sorry. ;D But, in all seriousness, most people say that you need to go with FF to have it for insulation purposes, but I can tell you for a fact that the Arctic's insulate as good as if not better than FF spas.
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Another advantage of Arctic Spas insulation is upgradeability. A few years ago Arctic came out with the Onzen system. This a salt water care system which works fantastic.
Whenever a new product is introduced for an Arctic spa an email is sent out explaining what the widget does and what it will cost to install on the customers existing hot tub. About 15% of those customers who received an email about our newest option decided to get it installed on their spa. Now 15% isn't a huge number but those customers don't have to buy a whole new spa to get the newest widget.
Adding jets after a customer has a spa in their backyard is another common upgrade. We have added one jet, we have added 30 jets along with an additional pump.
Again just another Arctic Advantage!
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I have ESP...haha Beerman, you aren't offending anyone..we are all friends here ;)
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/SpaPeddler.jpg)
A picture I did up a couple of years ago that's on our website...not directed at anyone. I just saw the original car salesman and it reminded me that I had it.
See ya'll later!
Term
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Arctic guys: I've started a new topic re: Arctic. I hope a few of you Arctic salefolks/customers can reply.
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ESP, I tell you..I HAVE ESP
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well put ndabunka
i sell both styles. i do prefer full foam but that is me . both spas do the same thing they heat water. they move water. they are enjoyable. i believe it is just a personal preference on what each person choices. there are arguments for both sides, that will never end. over time any spa is going to have a leak. but each dealer can handle it different in helping the consumer repair it. so it does not have to be negative issue on the spa.
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well put ndabunka
i sell both styles. i do prefer full foam but that is me . both spas do the same thing they heat water. they move water. they are enjoyable. i believe it is just a personal preference on what each person choices. there are arguments for both sides, that will never end. over time any spa is going to have a leak. but each dealer can handle it different in helping the consumer repair it. so it does not have to be negative issue on the spa.
Well said ejf, well said. To each his own. As long as you buy from a solid reputable manufacturer, you should be fine either way.
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Leave it to someone to make a perfectly logical, sensible post...there goes this thread ;D ;)
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over time any spa is going to have a leak.
As the thread is about FF vs TP, relevant leaking to this thread would be plumbing leaks that would be within the FF. In this case, I have to COMPLETELY disagree with this statement, and it SHOULD be, over time any spa may develop a leak leak.
I've seen many many many many spas well over 15 or 20 years old, that other then from the equipment, have NEVER EVER had a leak!
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Oringal poster here again. I thought I'd interject to say I have a 23-year-old 4-jet Beachcomber. The spa pack kicked the proverbial bucket a month ago (it's REALLY dead, and it was the second spa pack in the history of the tub), but the tub itself remained leak-free until the end.
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Wow that is amazing..no wonder you are searching for another tub that can give you that kind of long dependable life!
I know what I have found with most appliances is that they just don't make them like they used to..the old saying is so true. The Sears sales person told me to expect to get 5 years out of a new microwave...the one that I MAY replace is already 12 years old and the washer that I got 6 years ago is on it's last leg...it replaced a 20 year old washer that NEVER had a repair before it died. Although technology has made things better in many respects, I think the life of the things we buy is definately much shorter! What's up with that?
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In the case of my Beachcomber, I think the fact that it has just 4 jets has something to do with it. :-) Four jets and one light bulb. And pneumatic controls. That's why I get so nervous looking at new tubs. 40 jets? LEDs? Topside electronics? So much to go wrong!
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technology changes and also gets better, my tub has digital controls. 14 years old, i have replaced my pillows, one pump seal, and now going to replace my cover....i would not be afraid of the spas of today....
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I want to add to Doc's reply about fixing a suction leak: I have had good luck using a similar technique by creating a partial vacuum in the system with my trusty shop vac. Obviously this can only work on an empty spa ::) Once I find the leak, which is usually in a glue joint, I clean it off really well, then I put the shop vac on the closest jet and test it with water. If I can get a good pull, I dry everything off and move right to the primer and glue.
If I can't get a good pull, I may have to tape off some of the jets on that same line. In some cases I end up taping off ALL the jets in the spa, esp. in a smaller model spa, and put the vac hose on the filter. In a HS product the shop vac fits over the filter standpipe perfectly, and a standard PVC threaded plug will close off the second filter (most HS tubs have twin filters per jet pump). You don't need to hermetically seal the whole system: if you have a good, strong vac you can get plenty of draw for this just by putting the hose on the closest jet, and you can boost that draw by taping off as few as one or two nearby jets. It works.
BTW - there's no reason this would not work on pressure OR suction leaks. It might be faster to use the pump to draw a partial vacuum, or the shop vac might be easier - each job is just a bit different.