Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jbequer on October 16, 2009, 06:43:17 pm
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I need to pre wire for a new hot tub.
I want to run #6 50amp wire in 100ft of 1 inch conduit.
My question is, can i buy a 500 ft black #6 wire role from Home Depot , ($207.00) cut four 100ft sections and color tape the ends white, green, red and leave one black?
I want to save some money by not having to get four different colors in 100ft sections, This would almost double my cost.
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I am no electrician but it sounds like it should work. Just be sure and get the colors right.
You pulling a permit??
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No, no permit..
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What is the purpose of a permit, besides them taking your money?
I am having a friend electrician help me with the wiring, so i'm sure it will be safe.
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I ran four 8 gauge wires (black, but color-coded using tape) from a 50-amp breaker in my distribution panel through rigid conduit to the sub-panel supplied with the hot tub. From there, I ran 6 wires to the hot tub through liquid-tight conduit per its requirements from the 30-amp and 20-amp GFCI breakers. Some will argue that 6 gauge should have been used from the main panel to the sub-panel, but it all depends how far the run is and the temperature rating of the wire that is used. I'm using exactly what was specified in the Watkins installation instructions and have no problems. My voltage drop is well within acceptable limits with the pump and heater on.
Naturally, you want to make sure all the wiring is correct with special attention paid to the wiring of the GFCI breakers. If wired incorrectly, you are set up for either nuisance trips or an electrocution hazard.
I'm familiar with residential, commercial, and industrial equipment wiring practices, but I'm not a licensed electrician. I always recommend that others hire a REPUTABLE electrician. I don't know any reputable electricians in my area. I've seen too many code violations and shoddy work done by them to run that risk. That, along with the ENORMOUS cost savings is why I perform all my own work.
Keep in mind that different hot tubs will have different voltage, amperage, and wiring requirements. I used what was appropriate for my installation.
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With both my installs I hired licensed electricians but did not pull permits.
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The general idea of a permit is to be sure it's done correctly. If there's no permit and you have a problem, there's a possibility your home owners insurance will deny the claim.
While what your doing would "work", code calls for an insulated green wire for the ground and specifically disallows green tape on another color of wire. Why not just buy four pieces of 125' foot wire, each of the proper color from home depot? They can roll it together, taping it together every 8 to 10 feet, and you wont have to measure and cut anything.
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While what your doing would "work", code calls for an insulated green wire for the ground and specifically disallows green tape on another color of wire.
Specifically, this applies to conductors #6 or smaller. Green tape to identify a ground wire is permitted and common on #4 and larger.
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Okay, I'll probably get bombarded for this, but as an engineer who worked for years as a code official, here's several reasons why you should pull a permit...
1- even though you may think you're the most knowledgable person in the world about electrical wiring and code requirements, code requirements change, and how you wired "the last one" may no longer be code compliant. A code official will verify that what you've done is compliant (or not as the case may be). Even licensed electricians make mistakes.
2- if you have people use your hot tub with you, and god forbid something happens to injure one of them (or worse), and they sue you (which is almost certain in this day and age), and it is deemed to be due to improper electrical work, not even F. Lee Bailey will be able to save you. Having the work permitted and inspected helps protect you from that liability.
3 - if you sell your home, the next person has a reasonable expectation that the tub is wired correctly and it will not injure them.
4- pulling permits helps support your local government operations. And in rural area like mine, this can mean the difference between having code officials at all.
Honestly, I understand the rationale of saying "why should I pull a permit...this is simple". But in my past life as a code official, I've seen many do it yourself installations go bad, and it's never good. When I installed my tub this spring, the permit was $40. A lot of money? I spent over $7k on the tub, and around $350 for an electrician to wire it...what's another $40? And I have a green sticker on the cover of my panel to prove that it was inspected and approved. I sleep well at night.
Okay...end of sermon ;)
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A good reason for a permit. Not saying this was the issue but still.
Just happened this weekend
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010102002_webhottub21m.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010102002_webhottub21m.html)
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Yeah, who knows what happened there. Time will tell the investigators I guess. Obviously GFCI's are an important part of this kind of installation. But I've seen people screw them up to in "do it yourselfer" situations. Saw a case one time where a young girl was badly hurt after leaning against a metal swing in a yard, adjacent to a supposedly grounded lighting fixture.
And before someone says it, yes, even inspectors can screw up. But it significantly reduces the risk of something going bad. And again, the liability issue is huge in homeowners doing their own work.
Okay, NOW I'm done ;)
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*sigh*........this'll get me in trouble for sure.
True story :-)
Call for an inspection, inspector says I have to change an item from "method A" to "method B"...not worth arguing, so I change it. Call for reinspection. 1st inspector's on vacation. Second inspector say I need to change from "method B" to "A". Ok, change it back. Reinspection....Inspector 1 is baaaaack. Man did he scream. Called his supervisor. Supervisors PISSED....says I need to do "method 3"
Inspectors don't know everything. They too are not always the most knowledgeable people. As a licensed contractor for years, I whipped out a code book more than once to show them. MORE than once the inspector would say he didn't care what the code book said, he wanted it done his way.
ducky's #2, #3 and #4 are dead on though (no pun intended).
....somewhere I remember in all the paper work for pulling a permit a disclaimer saying something to the effect that inspectors weren't responsible for any job being up to code even if they approved it.
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Back to the original question, can i use 1 #6 black 500ft spool, cut into 4 100ft sections and use phase tape on both ends? Will this pass inspection? I have been told by several people, that i can do this with #6 wire.
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Again, you CAN and it WILL WORK, but if the inspector follows code properly, it will fail because the ground wire must be bare or have solid green (or green with one or two yellow stripes) insulation. A #6 wire cannot be black with green tape.
"Do as I say, not as I do." :D
I dusted off the NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code) book at work the other day and verified this.
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To further agree with Dr. Spa, our company produces an anchor that is set in a deck. The anchor is plastic. After getting yelled at by our customers for not including a lug nut for bonding, we started putting the bonding lug on the PLASTIC anchor.
This was all because the inspectors saw the anchor and said ALL anchors must be bonded. Even PLASTIC anchors!!! Huh?
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I know a contractor that said he wired many spa's this way without failing inspections. I have also heard that it depends on the area one lives in. I live in california, has anoyone heard of this being a problem in california?
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I know a contractor that said he wired many spa's this way without failing inspections. I have also heard that it depends on the area one lives in. I live in california, has anoyone heard of this being a problem in california?
You asked a specific question and I was just giving you a specific answer direct from the NEC. It's called National Electrical Code, not California Electrical Code. Lots of individuals and some contractors do things that aren't up to code. Most work, some don't. Some things we think are stupid do have a basis for being included in code - whether it's for safety, performance, troubleshooting, etc. It also depends on how thorough the inspector is and how familiar he is with the things he's supposed to be looking out for. Often, a code inspector may see a perfect conduit run and everything operates and tests properly without knowing the conduit may be filled with pink wire with paper insulation.
As stated already, a properly connected ground wire will provide a proper ground regardless if it's bare, green, black, lavender, mocha, or clear. But, if your code inspector catches it, you'll have to pull a proper-colored ground wire. Also, you may not be concerned about it, but for those that come after you who may be troubleshooting, imagine that an electrician who needs to identify the ground wire halfway through the conduit run. If all the wires are black, there's no way to visually identify the ground wire.
Again, do what you want. I'm just telling you what the rules are.
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I got this fron NEC codes. I guess it is a violation, but it is being done . It's all up to the inspector.
For conductors 6 AWG and smaller, the equipment grounding conductor is identified by green outer finish or green with yellow stripe(s).
(A) Conductors Larger Than 6 AWG.
Insulated conductors 4 AWG and larger can be permanently reidentified when installed by:
(1) Stripping the insulation from the length of the exposed conductor
(2) Coloring the exposed insulation or covering green
(3) Marking the exposed insulation or covering with green tape or green adhesive labels
Comment: The “equipment grounding conductor” is commonly and incorrectly referred to as “ground wire” or “green wire”. This conductor bonds together the metal enclosures and raceways to the grounded conductor or grounding electrode conductor at the service. Metallic raceways can be and are often the equipment grounding conductor, see NEC [Section 250.118]. The identification requirements are similar to that of the grounded conductor, and remarking a 6 AWG and smaller conductor with green phase tape is a violation, although it is commonly done. [/color]
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has anoyone heard of this being a problem in california?
YES. But it depends on the inspector...if he sees and if he's aware of the code.
Why not just buy 4 separate, different and proper colored wires to begin with??????????
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Sorry here it is again.. Last line.
For conductors 6 AWG and smaller, the equipment grounding conductor is identified by green outer finish or green with yellow stripe(s).
(A) Conductors Larger Than 6 AWG.
Insulated conductors 4 AWG and larger can be permanently reidentified when installed by:
(1) Stripping the insulation from the length of the exposed conductor
(2) Coloring the exposed insulation or covering green
(3) Marking the exposed insulation or covering with green tape or green adhesive labels
Comment: The “equipment grounding conductor” is commonly and incorrectly referred to as “ground wire” or “green wire”. This conductor bonds together the metal enclosures and raceways to the grounded conductor or grounding electrode conductor at the service. Metallic raceways can be and are often the equipment grounding conductor, see NEC [Section 250.118]. The identification requirements are similar to that of the grounded conductor, and remarking a 6 AWG and smaller conductor with green phase tape is a violation, although it is commonly done.
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Go back to the code book, and look SPECIFICALLY at the section regarding pools and spa...it'll probably have some different requirements.
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Four colored #6 wires 50 amp is going to run close to $400. I can get the same for $136 at Lowes, same wire..
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I did not see any specification on pool and spa's in the code book?? Specificaly, phasing colors on #6 wire.
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Check Article 680 (what year NEC are you looking at?)
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I still have not read where they say that #6 cannot be phased.
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Anything under 680.25 (sorry, I don't currently hve a copy of the current code book).
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That's where i am reading. Nothing on phasing #6 wire..
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....somewhere I remember in all the paper work for pulling a permit a disclaimer saying something to the effect that inspectors weren't responsible for any job being up to code even if they approved it.
Well...kind of. It really doesn't matter what's printed on the permit. The fact is the law has this little disclaimer known as "governmental immunity", which in layman's terms says if a government employee is doing their job to the best of their ability, and not blatantly ignoring their responsibilities, doing anything malicious or intentionally breaking the law, they have immunity from prosecution. This is tested all the time (can't stop someone from filing a lawsuit), but unless there is evidence of any of those things, the judge will throw it out.
Again guys, as I said before inspectors do make mistakes too. But if you are sued, the first thing the lawyers will ask is did you get a permit for the work. If you had an inspection done by your code official, and the work was approved (whether code worthy or not), no judge will find you liable. That's all I was saying.