Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: bash on May 24, 2009, 11:16:24 am
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Hey folks,
Been lurking for a while, as I've been searching for our first hot tub. After a number of wet tests of many tubs, and researching local dealer reputations, we have it narrowed down to two: The Arctic Summit Signature and the Artesian Grand Cayman 52.
Both are pretty much the same price, and both are coming from great dealers. I'm aware of the foam differences (Arctic's perimeter insulation vs Artesian's full foam), so I don't want this to turn into a foam debate. I'm more curious about the thoughts of the tubs themselves, features, jets, known issues, etc.
The Arctic Summit only comes with 33 jets off the bat (although we're asking for an additional 2 leg jets to be throw in), while the Artesian is at 52, so that's a big difference there. Both are coming with 5" covers, hydraulic cover lifters, GFI, fiberglass/composite exterior and standard delivery/setup.
I know it's odd to have these two as a final two because they really are two very different tubs. Wet testing revealed a much more open concept in the Artesian, while the Arctic was more confined (but also felt more therapeutic, being "locked" into those seats). We were very comfortable in both tubs, it's just that they both offer different types of seating.
Just wondering if anyone has any additional thoughts or considerations about these two particular models. One big issue giving me a headache was the fact that the Artesian is running with a 24 hour circ pump, which apparently changes the water over 100 times per day, whereas the Arctic is running it's pumps at low speed a few times a day to do their filtration and water changing. Just curious as to whether anyone had any thoughts about this, and whether it should be a show-stopper or not.
Any input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Bash
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Both are nice spas from a quality standpoint so your good there. I don't know tons on the Arctic as no one around here sells them, but have read good things here.
As far as Artesian goes we use to sell them before we brought on Jacuzzi, the only reason we dropped Artesian was plain and simple, we sold more Jacuzzi's. The Island series Artesian use to only have a 3 year warranty may be 5 now? Arctic is probably 5 so from that I like the Arctic. I do like the 24hr circ better than not having one, in my opinion if you have the ozone installed you get more out of it plus the 24hr filtration.
If they are charging you for the stainless jets skip it, it looks nice but that's all it does,same with the micro-ban shell not worth the extra charge unless they are throwing it in. If I remember right the Artesian has 3 main pumps not sure on the Arctic.
You cant go wrong with either specially if the dealers are good,sounds like your leaning towards the Artesian? Sometimes going with your gut is a good way to go and it sounds like you have done your homework.
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Hey folks,
Just wondering if anyone has any additional thoughts or considerations about these two particular models. One big issue giving me a headache was the fact that the Artesian is running with a 24 hour circ pump, which apparently changes the water over 100 times per day, whereas the Arctic is running it's pumps at low speed a few times a day to do their filtration and water changing. Just curious as to whether anyone had any thoughts about this, and whether it should be a show-stopper or not.
The circ pump will be quieter, runs ozone 24/7 and is a bit less $ to run while the 2 speed pump used for filtering turns more water so they each have their merits. In the end this shouldn't be a show stopper or decision maker. The only time it really seems to matter is if the spa is going to be in an area where the sound of the filtering is an issue at night (like right outside the bedroom) though usually its not loud enough to matter so base it on the wet test you took and get the spa you TRULY want.
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Thanks for the replies!
Jacuzzi Jim: No ozone installed on either tub, so I guess that makes the battle between circ pump and non-circ pump that much closer. Definitely didn't go with the stainless steel in either for the exact reason you mentioned. The Artesian is the 52 series, so only the two 6hp pumps, so that matches up with Arctic as well (although, I'm unsure as to whether the Artesian has a 48 or 56 frame motor). Can't say I'm really leaning one way, although I like the greater number of jets in the Artesian and the wife likes the wider array of seating positions in the Arctic!
Spatech: Good advice, thanks! I've read some people's posts saying they would never consider a spa without a circ pump, so it made me wonder whether it is a must have or not. It sounds like a good option, but it sounds like it's just two different ways of doing a similar thing. Thanks for the tip on the noise, though. It won't be immediately outside any bedrooms, but that's good to know.
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Artesian uses a 56 frame. Whats the up charge for the circ pump and ozone? They willing to throw in you think, may be worth a try for the sale.
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Arctic's Ozone system was about $1200....didn't ask about the Artesian, because they JUST barely got into our price range as it is, so I'm not sure we can get much more out of them.
The circ pump is included by default in the Artesian, and Arctic doesn't even have a circ pump option. It's pretty much what you see is what you get with the filtration. Even with their Ozone system, I don't believe it adds any kind of circ pump, as I recall someone mentioning it simply integrates into the existing system.
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I own a 2005 Artesian Cayman with 52 jets and it's a nice tub. The electronics are different today than back in 2005. I believe that they use Balboa today.
Don't let the number of jets sway you. I believe both are nice tubs.
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Thanks Vinny! I wonder if you could answer a question for me. I read somewhere that the Artesian has a tendancy to lose heat faster in the winter when the cover is open. That was just the experience of one individual, so I was just curious as to whether that is something you've witnessed.
Thanks again! I agree that both would be a good choice. Either way, can't wait to stop the internal debate and finally just pick one! :)
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Don't be swayed by the Microban. Microban in a hot tub doesn't really do anything.
Microban is in products to keep bacteria at bay. This is a great feature in a product that isn't constantly being sanitized. For instance, a baby's high chair. You don't have chlorinated water sitting on the high chair all the time.
A hot tub is constantly sanitized. You'll always be killing bacteria on the surface of the hot tub - with the exception of the small amount of surface out of the water. There is no need for Microban. It really is just a marketing tool.
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Thanks Vinny! I wonder if you could answer a question for me. I read somewhere that the Artesian has a tendancy to lose heat faster in the winter when the cover is open. That was just the experience of one individual, so I was just curious as to whether that is something you've witnessed.
Thanks again! I agree that both would be a good choice. Either way, can't wait to stop the internal debate and finally just pick one! :)
I have to question that as I don't have anything to compare to. My tub can maintain the temp in the wintertime with the cover open but can't heat the tub too well with the cover open. Artesian used to use (may still do) a 4 KW heater with circ pump models and 5.5 (? about the .5) KW heater on the non circ pump models. I believe that's why it doesn't heat too well. I've been in the tub 40 minutes in 20's & 30's and the tub lost 1 degree. The tub will not heat if all 3 therapy pumps are on so I guess if it's really cold out and all 3 pumps are on then it will probably lose temp. I did an experiment a few years back and shut the heater off and in 3 1/2 days it lost about 16 degrees, temps were in the 20's and 30's. Another person who has a Arctic did the same and his tub maintained temp - we both were filtering the tubs - me with the circ pump and him with thescheduled timing.
What are they getting for an Artesian these days anyway?
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Both are nice spas from a quality standpoint so your good there. I don't know tons on the Arctic as no one around here sells them, but have read good things here.
As far as Artesian goes we use to sell them before we brought on Jacuzzi, the only reason we dropped Artesian was plain and simple, we sold more Jacuzzi's. [glow]The Island series Artesian use to only have a 3 year warranty[/glow] may be 5 now? Arctic is probably 5 so from that I like the Arctic. I do like the 24hr circ better than not having one, in my opinion if you have the ozone installed you get more out of it plus the 24hr filtration.
If they are charging you for the stainless jets skip it, it looks nice but that's all it does,same with the micro-ban shell not worth the extra charge unless they are throwing it in. If I remember right the Artesian has 3 main pumps not sure on the Arctic.
You cant go wrong with either specially if the dealers are good,sounds like your leaning towards the Artesian? Sometimes going with your gut is a good way to go and it sounds like you have done your homework.
According to the Artesian 2008 owners manual, it says it has a three year warranty on the island series. They don’t have a 2009 manual on their website yet, so I don’t know if that changed for 2009 or not. The Arctic comes with a five year warranty.
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Don't be swayed by the Microban. Microban in a hot tub doesn't really do anything.
Microban is in products to keep bacteria at bay. This is a great feature in a product that isn't constantly being sanitized. For instance, a baby's high chair. You don't have chlorinated water sitting on the high chair all the time.
A hot tub is constantly sanitized. You'll always be killing bacteria on the surface of the hot tub - with the exception of the small amount of surface out of the water. There is no need for Microban. It really is just a marketing tool.
I highly doubt that Microban is JUST a marketing tool. No way do all the manufacturers and dealers go thru the extra expense of having Microban, if its of no importance.
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I highly doubt that Microban is JUST a marketing tool. No way do all the manufacturers and dealers go thru the extra expense of having Microban, if its of no importance.
I highly doubt Microban is NOT just a marketing tool. Why would leading manufacturers such as Hot Spring and Jacuzzi not go thru the extra expense of Microban if it had true value?
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I highly doubt Microban is NOT just a marketing tool. Why would leading manufacturers such as Hot Spring and Jacuzzi not go thru the extra expense of Microban if it had true value?
I dont know why have so many leading manufacturers chosen for so many years NOT to put a legitimate floor on their spas? Many are finally starting to do it, but why did it take so long? Vanguard is assuming that the spa shell is always being sanitized properly, we all know in this business that lots of the time that a spa is in use it isnt being sanitized properly. Many times there is absolutely NO free chlorine reading at all on the test strip when I test spa water for customers.
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So, how does microban on shell help with water that is not properly sanitized?
See: ftp://http://www.rhtubs.com/microban.htm
And what does a "floor" have to do with microban?
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I dont know why have so many leading manufacturers chosen for so many years NOT to put a legitimate floor on their spas? Many are finally starting to do it, but why did it take so long? Vanguard is assuming that the spa shell is always being sanitized properly, we all know in this business that lots of the time that a spa is in use it isnt being sanitized properly. Many times there is absolutely NO free chlorine reading at all on the test strip when I test spa water for customers.
You're right, I do assume that the spa owner will take care of their spa in a manner that the water will be sanitized. I'm glad to see the article that Hottubdan posted. I have read, if not this article, one very close to it. The whole point that manufacturers using Microban cannot even say it kills bacteria tells me it is simply a marketing gimmick.
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Looks to me like that article is printed by a competitor of the Microban Lucite Shell. Ill take that article with a grain of salt. Do a quick search of Microban and you will several articles talking about the advantages it brings to the table.
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I highly doubt that Microban is JUST a marketing tool. No way do all the manufacturers and dealers go thru the extra expense of having Microban, if its of no importance.
I'll avoid putting my toes in the water and actually commenting on its true usefulness but let’s realize this is a Marketing driven industry. IMO the decision to add Microban is absolutely about the perception (or reality) of how well it helps spa sales vs how wells it actually works.
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So, how does microban on shell help with water that is not properly sanitized?
See: ftp://http://www.rhtubs.com/microban.htm
[glow]And what does a "floor" have to do with microban?
[/glow]
Im talking about the floor because just because some manufacturers dont do something on their spas doesnt mean that it isnt good for the spa.
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I just did a basic Google search, and there are far more companies that support Microban than those that are against it. Many of them aren’t even in the spa industry. Just because some companies don’t use it doest make it worthless. This countertop company sure is a believer in it. Here is what this counter place had to say about all of the benefits Microban provides:
http://www.granitdesign.com/en/microban.aspx
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Wet Test!!
All the Arctic Jets will spin. Giving you great feeling. Arctic could put lower volume small jets in the spa to boost the number of jets. Arctic prefers to use 5" and 3" spinning jets. Don't go by the number of jets go by the quality of the jets.
Michael
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Micro ban in my opinion probably works in some way! However it doesn't mean you don't have to use a sanitizer in your spa, and its not some magic thing that keeps your spa sparkling clean. Suppose a salesman could make someone believe it does just to up charge the product.
My understanding of how microban works on spa shells,filters and kitchen counter tops is it does nothing more than inhibit the growth of bacteria on the surface of said product inhibit growth, not kill bacteria.
To me micro ban on a spa shell means nothing, like Dan said if its so great why don't other company's use it. I use the same analogy when someone is shopping Beachcomber spas and all excited about the external spa pack. If its so great why are they the only ones that do it?? I don't have any problem with it just don't think its needed. Same could be said for stainless escutcheons if they are there fine, but I wouldn't pay extra to get it. Many I talk to are under the assumption the whole jet is stainless not just the front, once again its back to the salesman's pitch and how its perceived by the customer.
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Micro ban in my opinion probably works in some way! However it doesn't mean you don't have to use a sanitizer in your spa, and its not some magic thing that keeps your spa sparkling clean. Suppose a salesman could make someone believe it does just to up charge the product.
My understanding of how microban works on spa shells,filters and kitchen counter tops is it does nothing more than inhibit the growth of bacteria on the surface of said product inhibit growth, not kill bacteria.
To me micro ban on a spa shell means nothing, like Dan said if its so great why don't other company's use it. I use the same analogy when someone is shopping Beachcomber spas and all excited about the external spa pack. If its so great why are they the only ones that do it?? I don't have any problem with it just don't think its needed. Same could be said for stainless escutcheons if they are there fine, but I wouldn't pay extra to get it. Many I talk to are under the assumption the whole jet is stainless not just the front, once again its back to the salesman's pitch and how its perceived by the customer.
I definetely agree that Microban wouldnt be a make or break item on a spa, but to say that its just a marketing ploy, is quite comical to say the least.
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I'll avoid putting my toes in the water and actually commenting on its true usefulness but let’s realize this is a Marketing driven industry. IMO the decision to add Microban is absolutely about the perception (or reality) of how well it helps spa sales vs how wells it actually works.
From everything I've known, heard or read about Microban, this statement is right on target.
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I definetely agree that Microban wouldnt be a make or break item on a spa, but to say that its just a marketing ploy, is quite comical to say the least.
That's exactly what it is. I remember years ago reading an article related directly to the spa business that no one could use the term "sanitizer" when speaking of microban. There was a liability issue and many if not MOST dealers that offered it, over sold it.
To suggest that this product could do anything positive in a 0 chlroine environment in a spa is almost comical to say the least. As with any marketing BS, I say show me documented proof of it working and to what degree in a spa environment. Countertops don't count sorry to say.... ::)
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That's exactly what it is. I remember years ago reading an article related directly to the spa business that no one could use the term "sanitizer" when speaking of microban. There was a liability issue and many if not MOST dealers that offered it, over sold it.
To suggest that this product could do anything positive in a 0 chlroine environment in a spa is almost comical to say the least. As with any marketing BS, I say show me documented proof of it working and to what degree in a spa environment. Countertops don't count sorry to say.... ::)
So its beneficial for countertops, but not on spas. You dont say... ::)
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That's exactly what it is. I remember years ago reading an article related directly to the spa business that no one could use the term "sanitizer" when speaking of microban. There was a liability issue and many if not MOST dealers that offered it, over sold it.
To suggest that this product could do anything positive in a 0 chlroine environment in a spa is almost comical to say the least. As with any marketing BS, I say show me documented proof of it working and to what degree in a spa environment. Countertops don't count sorry to say.... ::)
Please oh please self proclaimed experts of the almighty spa world show me documented proof that it is marketing bs. I guess all these manufacturers need to quit wasting so much money with Lucite.
;D ;D ;D
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So its beneficial for countertops, but not on spas. You dont say... ::)
Didnt you know that dirty spa water is MUCH worse than raw meat on countertops! Come beerman get a clue!
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I definetely agree that Microban wouldnt be a make or break item on a spa, but to say that its just a marketing ploy, is quite comical to say the least.
I actually thought that most industry people pretty much thought of it as just a Marketing ploy for spas. Unless I see something that says otherwise that's how I think of it. Its more of a "no harm, no foul" tag line for a spec sheet IMO unless of course sales people are playing it up to customers as a key add on for spa water care or making some other over the top claim.
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Please oh please self proclaimed experts of the almighty spa world show me documented proof that it is marketing bs. I guess all these manufacturers need to quit wasting so much money with Lucite.
;D ;D ;D
http://www.rhtubs.com/microban.htm
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I just did a basic Google search, and there are far more companies that support Microban than those that are against it. Many of them aren’t even in the spa industry. Just because some companies don’t use it doest make it worthless. This countertop company sure is a believer in it. Here is what this counter place had to say about all of the benefits Microban provides:
http://www.granitdesign.com/en/microban.aspx
Sorry Dan, I missed that you alreay linked to the same thing I did.
Just because a company "believes in it:....aka uses it as a marketing ploy, doesn't mean it's true. Show us an INDEPENDENT, SCIENTIFIC, PEER REVIEWED study proving it has any benefits. You say it does, we say it don't. We shouldn't have to prove it doesn't. The PROOF should be in that it does,
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So who does one decide to believe? The manufacturer itself or one study done by a competing manufacture that doesn’t use the product. According to the article that doc reposted, it says that it is against the law to state that microban makes spas healthier. But, if you read the microban website, its states just that. I don't think that ONE study by ONE person makes anything fact of fiction.
http://www.microban.com/americas/products/category.html?lang=en&CategoryID=1&SubcategoryID=25
http://www.microban.com/americas/products/category.html?lang=en&CategoryID=1&SubcategoryID=42
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So who does one decide to believe? The manufacturer itself or one study done by a competing manufacture that doesn’t use the product.
A manufacturer saying their product works as advertised is the equivalent of someone telling me how beautiful their baby is. ;)
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This is quickly turning into a dead horse, but here is some more fodder for you all.
What kind of proof do you have that Microban Antimicrobial product protection is safe?
MICROBAN has undergone extensive independent laboratory testing and has been proven safe. It is registered with the EPA for all applications in which it is used. Furthermore, MICROBAN is registered with the FDA for specific end-use medical applications. Products with MICROBAN protection have been used safely in medical applications for over ten years, such as in surgical incise drapes, hospital bed mattresses and pillow ticking.
http://www.poolwarehouse.com/hottubfaq.html
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This is quickly turning into a dead horse, but here is some more fodder for you all.
What kind of proof do you have that Microban Antimicrobial product protection is safe?
MICROBAN has undergone extensive independent laboratory testing and has been proven safe. It is registered with the EPA for all applications in which it is used. Furthermore, MICROBAN is registered with the FDA for specific end-use medical applications. Products with MICROBAN protection have been used safely in medical applications for over ten years, such as in surgical incise drapes, hospital bed mattresses and pillow ticking.
http://www.poolwarehouse.com/hottubfaq.html
Oh Beerman, you should know better than include the medical field now! Talk about marketing schemes! Kind of like the good ole 100% no by-pass filtration!
;D
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So who does one decide to believe? The manufacturer itself or one study done by a competing manufacture that doesn’t use the product. According to the article that doc reposted, it says that it is against the law to state that microban makes spas healthier. But, if you read the microban website, its states just that. I don't think that ONE study by ONE person makes anything fact of fiction.
http://www.microban.com/americas/products/category.html?lang=en&CategoryID=1&SubcategoryID=25
http://www.microban.com/americas/products/category.html?lang=en&CategoryID=1&SubcategoryID=42
Where in this statement does it say microban makes spas healthier?
"There’s no better place to seek relaxation and relief from stress than a spa. However, the high temperatures and wet environment can make an unprotected spa surface a target for the growth of bacteria. Look for a spa or hot tub with a non-porous Lucite® surface and one that offers the added protection of Microban® antimicrobial product protection. Microban protection inhibits the growth of bacteria that can cause stains and odors on the surface of the spa. The continuous antimicrobial cleaning action makes your spa surface easier to clean and keeps it cleaner between cleanings. Microban protection is not a substitute for normal water treatment chemicals."
It claims it makes the surface easier to clean.
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Where in this statement does it say microban makes spas healthier?
"There’s no better place to seek relaxation and relief from stress than a spa. However, the high temperatures and wet environment can make an unprotected spa surface a target for the growth of bacteria. Look for a spa or hot tub with a non-porous Lucite® surface and one that offers the added protection of Microban® antimicrobial product protection. Microban protection inhibits the growth of bacteria that can cause stains and odors on the surface of the spa. The continuous antimicrobial cleaning action makes your spa surface easier to clean and keeps it cleaner between cleanings. Microban protection is not a substitute for normal water treatment chemicals."
[glow]It claims it makes the surface easier to clean.[/glow]
So if the surface is easier to clean, then that means its NOT a marketing ploy. Im pretty sure that this is what we have been trying to say, its provided for a reason, not a marketing scheme.
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Where in this statement does it say microban makes spas healthier?
"There’s no better place to seek relaxation and relief from stress than a spa. [glow]However, the high temperatures and wet environment can make an unprotected spa surface a target for the growth of bacteria[/glow]. Look for a spa or hot tub with a non-porous Lucite® surface and one that offers [glow]the added protection of Microban® antimicrobial product protection. Microban protection inhibits the growth of bacteria that can cause stains and odors on the surface of the spa[/glow]. The continuous antimicrobial cleaning action makes your spa surface easier to clean and keeps it cleaner between cleanings. Microban protection is not a substitute for normal water treatment chemicals."
It claims it makes the surface easier to clean.
Oh, I guess it didnt come right out and say it but... ::)
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Oh, I guess it didnt come right out and say it but... ::)
Marketing ploy by insinuation? ;)
Obviously, some people fall for it ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So if the surface is easier to clean, then that means its NOT a marketing ploy.
Sure, if it were proven to be true then it would be more than a Marketing ploy.
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Com'n dude. The manufacturer says it's true...the salesmen selling it say it's true... ain't that proof enough?
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One other thing that should be noted about the Aristech article is that is states that Microban doesn’t kill or slow the growth of bacteria. Whereas Microban doesn’t claim that it slows or kills bacteria. Microban states that it inhibits the growth of bacteria. No where in that article does it state that it tested for that, or prove that it did or didn’t do that. It says that it showed a 0% reduction in bacteria that was placed in this study, but that is not what Microban claims it does. It claims it inhibits the growth of bacteria, and that study didn’t test for that. Really they are just changing some words around and rolling with it. Kind of funny that article was put out there by their biggest competition. That article proves nothing really.
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So its beneficial for countertops, but not on spas. You dont say... ::)
Yep you're right "too much beer man"... ::)
Is a bath or hot tub made with Microban "healthier?"
Absolutely not. In fact, manufacturers of Microban-treated acrylic sheet are not allowed by law to even imply that they are. The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) will not allow Microban Products Company, or any of its customers, to make claims regarding health benefits, such as protection from germs or disease prevention. Why? Because there is no specific evidence that any of the products treated with Microban are effective in preventing the spread of bacteria or disease
The above information from Doc's site is what I was speaking of in my earlier post.
And just so I understand your position... you recommend a product pushed by the manufacturers when in fact the company itself (Microban) nor its customers (manufacturers / dealers) can promote its "benefits"....?
Nah... no marketing there!!! ;D ;D ;D
It's a unique selling position for some dealers whos competition isn't offering it. If I sold you on that one feature and you loved it (or was completely brainwashed by its wonderful advantages... lol), you would most likely buy from me. Marketing 101... Hell, they got you sucked in. Why not an extra 25-50 customers? ::)
This ain't rocket science here and I'm not sure why this is such a stretch for you to grasp? :-?
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Yep you're right "too much beer man"... ::)
Is a bath or hot tub made with Microban "healthier?"
Absolutely not. In fact, manufacturers of Microban-treated acrylic sheet are not allowed by law to even imply that they are. The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) will not allow Microban Products Company, or any of its customers, to make claims regarding health benefits, such as protection from germs or disease prevention. Why? Because there is no specific evidence that any of the products treated with Microban are effective in preventing the spread of bacteria or disease
The above information from Doc's site is what I was speaking of in my earlier post.
And just so I understand your position... you recommend a product pushed by the manufacturers when in fact the company itself (Microban) nor its customers (manufacturers / dealers) can promote its "benefits"....?
Nah... no marketing there!!! ;D ;D ;D
It's a unique selling position for some dealers whos competition isn't offering it. If I sold you on that one feature and you loved it (or was completely brainwashed by its wonderful advantages... lol), you would most likely buy from me. Marketing 101... Hell, they got you sucked in. Why not an extra 25-50 customers? ::)
This ain't rocket science here and I'm not sure why this is such a stretch for you to grasp? :-?
Read my last post Steve. I dont think anyone can credit or source anything from the Aristech article. It is claiming something that Microban itself doesnt claim. So imo, know one to date has discredited Microban like you are claiming.
For the record, I obviously sell a spa that has microban, but I dont remember that last time that word came out of my mouth on the salesfloor. But you bet your ass I will use it to my advantage when someone asks me about it or brings it up. Who wouldnt?? To the average customer that is looking for countertops or cutting boards or hot tubs, and they hear a presentation about Micoban and then benefits it provides, I bet you they would be more prone to buy the one that has it then the one that doesnt. If they like two things equal, and every feature is equal along with pricing, I bet you they would buy the one with Microban 9 times out 10. And that is what this is all about. Making the sale and making people happy.
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Aristech=Gospel of Spa Acrylic Shells
(I didnt receive this memo in my intro to the spa industry several years ago)
In all seriousness, all that I am saying in all this is Microban adds value to the spa. Whether it makes the spa easier to clean or actually prevents molding and other issues with the spa shell then it is WAY more than a marketing scheme that is being implied by the self proclaimed "Spa Acrylic Shell Experts" on this board.
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In all seriousness, all that I am saying in all this is Microban adds value to the spa.
Absolutely! Perceived value is a huge advantage for anyone selling anything.
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This is an excerpt from an article I found online about the claim the EPA made against Microban:
Beginning in 1998, Robert Darnell, Brenda Mosley and I initiated and litigated an enforcement case against Microban for making health-related claims that are not supported by its EPA pesticide registration. The company’s liability was hardly in doubt: we even obtained copies of the registration documents that appeared to have been altered to omit crucial restrictive language; apparently these alterations were made in order to market Microban’s alleged health benefits to companies such as those that make children’s toys. In 2004, EPA enforcement finally prevailed on all issues in its second appeal of this matter before the Environmental Appeals Board. The Board upheld EPA’s interpretation of the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) penalty provisions: as the literal language of FIFRA §12(a)(1)(B) states, each sale or distribution is a violation, therefore counting the number of documents in which Microban’s unlawful claims were made undercounts violations.
The link to the article where I found this is here: http://www.centerforhealthyhousing.org/Triclosan_update.pdf
This was an interesting article. A Pesticide safety organization is claiming that Triclosan, the stuff in Microban, can actually create dioxins. In particular, they state a study by University of Minnesota PhD, Kristopher McNeil, that “Repeated exposure to chlorine [chlorinated water] could chlorinate triclosan. After chlorinated triclosan is discharged, sunlight could convert it into more toxic dioxins. Such a process might be a source of highly toxic dioxin in the environment.”
That was of particular interest to me since we are discussing the use of Microban in chlorinated water.
Again, this is an interesting article that I'm just throwing out there for everyone to read if they wish. I maintain that Microban is more of a marketing gimmick. However, I'm not a scientist and can't list a bunch of scientific data. I found the article and think it is worth looking at.
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Nice to see we have a discussion going here. And it has mostly stayed civil.
Vanguard's study makes it sound like Microban would be a [glow]negative[/glow] feature in a hot tub.
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One thing about it its out there and manufacturers use it, so not much to be talked about that.
If Sundance Jacuzzi or Hotspring or any other company used it you could bet it would be in the pitch or brochure as value for the spa, specially if it was a throw in regardless if it worked or not.
Question is, what would say pitch wise if you knew it didn't work, yet it was an option on your spa from the manufacturer?
I myself would present it as a different more vibrant color for a shell which it is. And may not talk about the microban at all depends on the customer and where they have been. When we sold Artesian back in the day I talked about it but didn't push it, most of the time it was a trow in if the spa was a floor model. Did it actually work don't know, I do know those customers still come in and buy chemicals and have the occasional water problems that everyone experiences from time to time.
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Absolutely! Perceived value is a huge advantage for anyone selling anything.
It adds value the same way no bypass filtering does. And that's not a HS knock but instead an example of a marketing strategy designed to sells spas. I think we made our point... ;)
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It adds value the same way no bypass filtering does. And that's not a HS knock but instead an example of a marketing strategy designed to sells spas. I think we made our point... [glow];)[/glow]
;) ;) ;)
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Summitman, just curious, did you read the article? What were your thoughts if you did? Not baiting or arguing, just curious.