Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Nitro on April 22, 2009, 01:33:18 am
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I have this guide posted on other boards. It seems to be very popular, so I thought I'd post it here. I hope it helps you to maintain your tub water a little easier.
[size=16]Introduction[/size]
There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and Sanitation. There are a few different methods to sanitize your hot tub, Bromine and Chlorine being the most popular. The method in this writeup is based on Chem Geek's famous Dichlor/Bleach method. However, Water Balance is related to all sanitation methods, so this could be helpful to anyone.
I will assume you have a fresh fill of water in your tub. If you don't and you're having problems, or it's close to the time to refill, you're better off just refilling your tub and starting over. Hot tub water should be changed every 3-5 months depending on usage. However, if your tub has serious problems, or you bought a used tub etc., you may want to decontaminate your tub.
In order to really maintain your water properly you need to test it. Test strips are ok for getting rough estimates, but IMO will make it more difficult to maintain your tub. It would be difficult for me to keep my tub as well tuned as it is by just using test strips. For a novice, I can see it being really difficult, especially if you have Well Water. Do yourself a favor and get a Drop Test kit such as the Taylor K-2006.
One more note. Before I got my hot tub, I knew nothing about water chemistry. After I started studying hot tub water chemistry, I realized there was a lot more to keeping a hot tub water safe then I anticipated. However, after learning it, I realized it doesn't have to be difficult or time consuming. This may get a little technical, but once you learn it, you'll have no trouble keeping your water balanced/sanitized.
Here we go:
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[size=16]Water Balance[/size]
Water can be either Acidic, Balanced or Alkaline. If your water is not balanced, it could cause all kinds of problems. If it's too Acidic it could cause corrosion. If it's too Alkaline it could cause scaling. Both of which will reducing the effectiveness of your sanitizer. If your water is not balanced your water is not safe for you, or your tub. So it's really critical to get this correct.
There are four main parameters to keeping your water balanced. Water Temperature, Calcium Hardness (CH), Total Alkalinity (TA) and Potens Hydrogen (pH). Assuming your water temp is around 100 degrees, we'll just focus on CH, TA and pH. The best way to test these is with a Drop Test kit, like the one mentioned above. IMO Test Strips are just not accurate enough to test these, especially for a beginner.
Calcium Hardness: CH is basically the amount of Calcium in your water. The lower your CH, the higher your TA and pH need to be to have balanced water. The higher your CH, the lower your TA and pH need to be. The first thing you should do is test your CH in your tub. If you haven't filled your tub yet, test your tap water for CH using a drop test kit. If you have a water softener in your house, it will remove most of the Calcium in your water. That means you may get a different reading from your indoor sink then from the outdoor hose. Check both to make sure. If you have really bad well water i.e. lots of metals etc., you may want to fill your tub using the water softener water, then just add Calcium afterward. If your water is city treated water, you may be ok straight from the hose. Also, consider getting a pre-filter that attaches to your hose, and filters out some of the metals.
Here's my recommendation. If your CH is much below 100 ppm, you should add calcium to bring it up to 130-150 range. If your CH is over 100, you can leave it alone and just make a note of what it is. The CH level will be used to determine your TA/pH levels. To raise Calcium you add Calcium Chloride, aka Calcium Increaser. You can find it at most Pool/Spa supply stores. The good news is you only need to add Calcium once per water change, because it will stay relatively the same until your next water change.
Potens Hydrogen: pH is the measure of acidity in your water. It's on a scale of 0 to 14, 7 being neutral. The human eye has a pH of 7.5, so the ideal range in Pools/Spas is 7.4-7.6 with a min of 7.2 and max of 7.8. However, and this is important, just because you have a pH of 7.5, doesn't mean your water is balanced. If your CH is too low, you could be corroding your hot tub heater. If your TA is too high, you could be forming scale in your tub. Both of which will reduce your sanitizer effectiveness. So it is very important to have balanced water along with an ideal pH.
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[size=16]Water Balance Part 2[/size]
Total Alkalinity: Alkalinity is a pH Buffer. High levels of TA will not allow pH to change from additions of acid or base. However, a high TA requires a low pH to have balanced water. On the other hand, very low levels of TA will allow the pH to change with very little acid. A very low TA level could cause your pH to drop to low levels, very fast with little acid. Also, the lower your TA, the higher your pH needs to be to have balanced water. So as you can see, a very low TA can become very unstable.
However, pH will have a tenancy to rise with aeration (i.e. use of jets and air), more so if your TA is high. Although, as long as you're not adding Acid (or anything with a lower pH) to your tub, the pH will not usually drop. Therefore, in hot tubs the problem is normally pH rise (or Drift), because of all the aeration. So the trick is to get the TA high enough to not create an unstable situation, and low enough to not allow pH to rise too much.
Let me repeat the last sentence, because it's the single most important thing to keeping your water balanced. The key to having balanced water, without pH drift, is having the correct TA level. If you find your pH rises too high (>8.0) after using your tub, your TA is too high, and needs to be lowered. If you find your pH is too low and/or your water is continually acidic, your TA is too low and needs to be raised. By fine tuning your TA, you can get your pH perfectly balanced, that rarely needs adjustment.
SO, what's a good TA then? That sort of depends on your CH. If your CH is around 150 ppm, your TA would need to be 80 ppm for your water to be balanced with an ideal pH of 7.6. How did I come up with those numbers you ask? Easy, I went to The Pool Calculator (http://www.thepoolcalculator.com/) website, and plugged in a Temp of 100, CH of 150, pH of 7.6 and adjusted TA until the CSI was close to zero. This website allows you to calculate your Saturation Index, based on the four Main parameters, Temp, CH, TA and pH. If CSI is less than zero your acidic, if it's greater than zero your alkaline and of it's close to zero your balanced. The CSI dosen't need to be exactly zero, +/- 0.3 is good enough.
OK, how do we adjust TA then? If TA is too low, you just add Baking Soda to raise it. However, if TA is high, it's little more involved. You'll need Acid (Dry or Muriatic). Depending on how high your TA is will depend on how long it will take you. Plan on it taking around an hour to decrease TA by 100 ppm. So if your TA is 300 ppm, plan it taking around 2-3 hours. First, uncover your tub and turn on all your jets, air, blowers, waterfalls etc. Test your pH. When it's greater than 7.8, add enough acid to bring it down to 7.0. Keep aerating until your pH is 7.8 again (about 30 min), then add more acid and repeat. Every time you add acid you're lowering your pH and TA. When you get your TA tuned perfectly, your pH will rise to a level (i.e. ~7.6) and stop, then you know you're at your ideal TA level. If your pH is rising too high (>8.0), bring your TA down a little more. If your pH doesn't rise enough from aeration (after an hour or more), you over shot it and need to add a little Baking Soda to raise your TA. After a few days/weeks of monitoring it, you'll get your TA tuned perfectly. You may need to add a little Dry Acid once a week or two, but your water should be well balanced at that point.
I wouldn't lower TA much below 50 ppm, because that could become unstable if you add any kind of acid. Also, if you have a very high TA, above 200, you may need to add more acid in the beginning to get your pH down. Remember, TA is a pH buffer, so the higher the TA, the more acid it takes to bring the pH down. It takes approximately 8 oz total of Dry Acid to bring TA down 100 ppm in a 350 Gal tub. However, the important thing is not to add too much acid all at once, causing your pH to drop below 7.0. That's why you should divide up the dosages, while aerating constantly. While using bleach you will fine a TA of 50-60 ppm is ideal for keeping pH in check. However, if you lower your TA to 50-60, you may need to raise CH to compensate.
There is one more thing I haven't mentioned that you can add to your tub that will help buffer your pH, Borates. The easiest way to add Borates to your tub is to get a product called Gentle Spa. It is pH balanced, so there is no need to add acid to counter balance it. The ideal amount is ~50 ppm, and only needs to be added once per water change. That will help keep your pH from drifting from aeration. Not to mention, actually make your water feel silkier. I highly recommend it.
BTW, I'm purposely not giving the exact amounts of Calcium, Baking Soda or Acid to use, because The Pool Calculator (http://www.thepoolcalculator.com/) will calculate that all for you. Just enter your tub size at the top, enter the current level in the left column, then enter your goal amount in the right. It will tell you the amount and what you need to add. For instance, if you enter tub size of 320 gal, a pH of 7.8 in the left column and 7.0 in the right, it calculates .4 oz or 2 tbs of Dry Acid. All you need to balance your water perfectly is Calcium Chloride, Baking Soda, Dry Acid and The Pool Calculator.
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[size=16]Sanitation[/size]
I'm only going to discuss Chlorine here. This is based on Chem Geeks Dichlor/Bleach method. I have found this method to be very easy and safe to use. I have yet to have a problem. I don't want to get into pros and cons, because that's better suited for it's own thread. If you don't know his method, this should explain it to you. If you do know it, maybe this will help you execute it better. I'm not going to get too technical. I'm just going to discuss everything that's important to keep your tub sanitized easily. If you want more details, search through Chem Geek's posts. You'll have plenty to read. Disclaimer: I'm not trying to convince you to use this method. I'm just explaining it. Please weigh all options before making a decision.
There are really two main things happening when your pool/tub is being sanitized. Organic waste is being oxidized, and bacteria/viruses are being killed. Chlorine does both, very well. That's why it's the most popular sanitizer in pools and spas. However, in order for chlorine to be effective there needs to be a Free Chlorine (FC) level in your tub at all times. If it drops to zero, bacteria will multiple within hours. So the number one rule with using chlorine as a sanitizer is, never let it drop to Zero for any length of time. Now lets get started on the procedure.
The first thing we are going to use to sanitize our tub is Dichlor. Dichlor is actually two things, Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid (CYA). CYA is a chlorine stabilizer, which slows down dissipation from UV rays (sunlight). It also acts as a buffer to hold chlorine in reserve. Having CYA in your tub will stop the chlorine from dissipating as fast while waiting for something to do. However, CYA also cuts down on the ability for the chlorine to sanitize. So in other words, the higher the CYA level, the longer the FC will wait in the tub, but the less effective the FC is. With no CYA in the tub, using bleach would be too strong and not practical to use. So, there needs to be a happy medium. Luckily Chem Geek has come up with one for us. He suggests a CYA of ~20 ppm. Personally I use a CYA of 30 ppm for reasons I won't get into here. But I think Chem Geek would agree anywhere between 20-30 is fine. Where the problem comes in is when CYA gets too high (above 100) after weeks of using Dichlor. Then your FC needs to be really high to get the same sanitation effectiveness. That's why we switch to bleach after we get our CYA to 20-30. Bleach doesn't add anymore CYA.
So, I'm going to assume our target CYA is 30, but feel free to use 20 and adjust as necessary. I find that it's easier to keep track of how much Dichlor you're adding to the tub and calculate the CYA, rather than testing CYA with the drop test kit until you get a 30 ppm reading. For every 10 ppm of Dichlor you add to your tub, you add 9 ppm CYA. So roughly 34 ppm Dichlor will give you 30 CYA. On a fresh fill, and after your water is balanced by the above method, shock your tub with Dichlor to 10 ppm FC. Then over the course of the next days, depending on bather load, add 24 ppm more FC using Dichlor. You want to keep your FC normally between 3-6 ppm everyday. This means you will be testing your FC EVERYDAY.
For example: On one day you test your FC and it's 1 ppm. You'll then add 5 ppm FC to bring it to 6. The next day you test FC and it's 3. You then add 3 ppm FC. You will do this until you add a total of 34 ppm FC to your tub using Dichlor. After that, you then switch to using bleach (Clorox Regular Unscented). Important: if you're not willing to test your tub everyday, at least for the first month or two, this method is not for you. I'd recommend another sanitation method
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[size=16]Sanitation Part 2[/size]
When you use your tub (this applies to when you are still using Dichlor or after you switch to bleach), the rule of thumb is, you'll use approximately 7 ppm FC per person per hour in a 350 gal tub. Now this will depend on a lot of things, water temp, cleanliness of the users etc. If it's just two people, after taking showers, using no swimsuits, with the temp at 98 you may only need 2 ppm FC/person/hour. However, if you have 6 people in their clothes, drinking (spilling) beer, with a temp at 102 causing everyone to sweat, you may need 20 ppm FC/person/hour. So this is where you may need to make a judgment call and/or experiment. Remember, the Chlorine has to do two things, Oxidize Waste, and Kill Bacteria. If your tub is being subjected to a lot of waste (sweat, beer etc), your FC will be used up and not be able to kill bacteria. Not good! So I'll give you two scenarios and how you might go about running an experiment. Remember, all this up front work is only necessary in the beginning, until you learn how much FC is being used in your tub. Once you know, it becomes easy to maintain. The rule of thumb is, assuming CYA is 20-30 ppm, FC should normally be between 3-6, with a min of 1 and shock to 12 once a week.
We'll go with the easy one first, two people, showered, no suits etc. (Note: Some people prefer to use the tub with very little FC. That's your choice. I'm just telling you how to determine how much FC you're using in a safe manner). Test your FC and add Chlorine to get to 5 ppm FC. After one hour of soaking test FC again. If you find you have no FC after an hour, next time start with 6 or 7. If you find you still have 3 ppm FC, next time it's safe to start with 3-4 ppm FC. Get it? The trick is to have the lowest amount of FC without ever dropping to zero. If you plan on staying in the tub longer than an hour, either start out with more FC, or add some during the soak. However, you don't want to get into the tub with the FC much above 8, unless of course you like a strong smell of chlorine. I got in once with FC at 10, and it was a little too much for me, and I like the smell of Chlorine.
On the other extreme. Full tub of people drinking, sweating etc. Do the same as above, but start out with more FC, maybe 6-8 ppm. Check the FC in an hour (or even a half). If you have no FC, you need to add some and check more often. If you still have FC, add some, and check again in the same time frame. It's the same as above, but you're just using more FC, more often. However, having the FC drop to zero for a short time with your lover, is not the same as with 4-5 other people, if you get my drift. So it's much more important to keep FC above zero at all times during a Hot Tub Party.
If you find you're having trouble keeping FC in your tub during party's, and/or you smell a foul odor during your soaks, you can add Potassium Monopersulfate (MPS or Non-Chlorine Shock) before (and/or during) your soak to help the Chlorine Oxidize waste. The only thing I would say is, go easy with MPS. Use only the amount needed and not much more. It is acidic and will lower your TA/pH if you use a lot. Start out with 1-2 tbs in addition to your normal FC, and see if that cuts down on the FC usage. Up it to 3-4 tbs, or add another 1-2 tbs during the soak if needed. MPS will help oxidize waste. However, it will not kill bacteria, so you still need FC. Also, you can use MPS as a shock once a week to help oxidize leftover waste, and reduce Combined Chlorine (spent FC).
After a month or two you will learn a routine, and be able to add Chlorine less often (i.e. every 2-3 days). How often you need to add Chlorine will depend on your Chlorine Demand (CD). The lower the CD, the less often you need to add Chlorine. The key is to keep CD as low as possible. HERE is a link that describes Chlorine Demand in detail, how to measure it and how to keep it low.
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Wow if you made it this far, you did pretty good. It seems like a lot to learn, but it's really not. I'll summarize it here.
[size=16]Summary[/size]
Water Balance
- If your CH is much below 100 ppm, raise it to ~150 ppm. Otherwise, make a note of it.
- Adjust your TA to ~60 ppm to start with then fine tune from there. Use Baking Soda to raise it, or Acid/Aeration method to lower it. It takes ~8 oz Dry Acid to lower TA by 100 ppm in a 350 Gal Tub. Don't add all at once! If you lower your TA, you may need to raise your CH to compensate.
- pH should be between 7.2-7.8. Aerate to Raise pH. Acid to lower it.
- If pH creeps up too much (>8.0), lower TA. If pH is to low, and doesn't raise enough by aeration, raise TA.
- Add ~50 ppm Borate. (Borox/Acid or Gentle Spa)
- Calcium, Baking Soda, Dry Acid and Borates is all you need to balance your water.
- Use The Pool Calculator (http://www.thepoolcalculator.com/) to calculate exact amounts to add.
Sanitation
- On a fresh fill use Dichlor until you get to 20-30 ppm CYA. (10 ppm FC = 9 ppm CYA)
- Then switch to Clorox Unscented 6% bleach.
- Never let FC drop to Zero for any length of time. Keep it between 3-6 ppm normally, min of 1 ppm, and shock to 12 ppm once a week.
- Use MPS if needed before hot tub party's and/or once a week to help oxidation. Go easy, because it's acidic and will lower your TA/pH.
- Check your Chlorine Demand often, and keep it low.
- Dichlor, Bleach and MPS is all you need to keep your tub sanitized.
- Use The Pool Calculator (http://www.thepoolcalculator.com/) to calculate exact amounts to add.
Lastly, get a drop test kit such as the Taylor K-2006. Also get FC test strips, because they come in handy for a quick estimate, during party's etc. The only two things you need to check regularly are FC and pH. Check them everyday and after soaks. If you have your water well balanced, you'll rarely need to adjust your TA. Shock once a week, and/or after high bather loads. Use MPS if you have party's, and/or don't want to use as much chlorine. Keep Chlorine Demand low, and you'll only need to add Chlorine every 2-3 days and after soaks. Easy as can be, and your tub is always ready.
I hope that helps you to understand Water Maintenance a little better.
Happy tubbing! :)
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Reserved
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Reserved
That would be fine to give to people whose job it is to explain water care to spa owners but it won't work for the actual average spa user due to length and a feeling that they're having to read a dry text book. In fact I've seen similar postings by people but I can't even attempt to read this because I'm tired from staying up too late last night and doubt I could get past the second paragraph without needing a nap (water care theory does that to me). I'll wait for the movie.
Hmm, maybe I should post my method and name it after myself, "Spatech's simple guide to water care"! If I did I know it would be about 80% shorter in length, 5 or 6 bullet point sentences and a couple small paragraphs at most. I wonder how I'd collect royalties. Maybe I could combine it with my theories on dating and gambling?
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That would be fine to give to people whose job it is to explain water care to spa owners but it won't work for the actual average spa user due to length and a feeling that they're having to read a dry text book. In fact I've seen similar postings by people but I can't even attempt to read this because I'm tired from staying up too late last night and doubt I could get past the second paragraph without needing a nap (water care theory does that to me). I'll wait for the movie.
Hmm, maybe I should post my method and name it after myself, "Spatech's simple guide to water care"! If I did I know it would be about 80% shorter in length, 5 or 6 bullet point sentences and a couple small paragraphs at most. I wonder how I'd collect royalties. Maybe I could combine it with my theories on dating and gambling?
I'm just trying to cover all the bases for beginners. There's always the Summary at the end for people who want to skip the details.
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Why don't you post your guide spatech . I am a beginer & would like to see it. Also does anyone have a suggestion were to purchase a Taylor K-2006 kit.
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Hi Cowboy, you can get the kit HERE (https://asp5.secure-shopping.com/spspools/details.asp?prodid=1259&cat=1200&path=) for $55. If anyone knows a cheaper/better source, let us know.
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Next question? How long does the kit last or maybe i should ask how many tests do you get from a kit?
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Hmm, maybe I should post my method and name it after myself, "Spatech's simple guide to water care"! If I did I know it would be about 80% shorter in length, 5 or 6 bullet point sentences and a couple small paragraphs at most. I wonder how I'd collect royalties. Maybe I could combine it with my theories on dating and gambling?
I've always preferred my Thursday, Saturday, Sunday approach ;)
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Cowboy, that's a good question. I'm not sure how many tests you'll get in the kit. That depends on the measurements. As far as how long the kit will last, you can expect the FC, TA and pH tests to last a few months in the beginning. This is because you will be testing often. However, once you get the hang of it you won't be testing as much, and can expect them to last 6 months or more. As far as the CYA and CH, they should last at least 6 months or more. You can also buy 2 oz reagents, that will last a lot longer, and be a bit cheaper per test.
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I usually tell people this: pH and TA should go up and down together. Add Spa Down if they are too high, Spa Up if they are too low.
Add a tablespoon of dichlor after every use.
Test the chlorine level daily for the first few weeks, and adjust the amount of chlorine you add after use until you have it so that there is JUST a readable chlorine level when you next go to use the spa.
Change the water every three or four months.
Do NOT test pH and TA more than once a week, and do NOT retest pH and TA sooner than 6 hours after adding Up or Down.
And testing for pH and TA with a high chlorine content is useless.
8-)
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I usually tell people this: pH and TA should go up and down together. Add Spa Down if they are too high, Spa Up if they are too low.
One problem with this is, if the TA is really high (>200, 300 etc), they won't realize how much acid it takes to get it down. A lot of times, they will just give up on it. And if you were to add enough acid to lower TA to an ideal level all at once, your pH would drop FAR too low (<7.0), creating an acid bath and possibly damaging the tub. If you limit the acid, it could take a week or two to balance the water. Why wait when it can be done safely in a few hours? Check out my Lowering TA Guide (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240374532) on how to do it.
The other problem is, there would be a tendency to over shoot the ideal levels, requiring way more chemicals (acid, bk) than necessary.
I find it much easier (requiring a lot less chemicals) to focus on TA and get it tuned so that pH stays at the ideal level. If you get your TA tuned, pH will stay right in line, without the need to add acid or baking soda.
Add a tablespoon of dichlor after every use.
Test the chlorine level daily for the first few weeks, and adjust the amount of chlorine you add after use until you have it so that there is JUST a readable chlorine level when you next go to use the spa.
The problem is, Dichlor adds CYA to the tub, reducing the effectiveness of the Chlorine. After a month of using the tub only 3 times a week, you would have ~60 ppm CYA. The Active Chlorine (FC/CYA ratio) would be far lower then in the beginning of the month. After 2 months with CYA > 100 ppm, you're at a much higher risk of developing something nasty, even though the FC is the same.
I recommend using Dichlor until your CYA is 20-30 ppm, then switching to bleach. Bleach is easier to get and cheaper anyway.
Change the water every three or four months.
If you're using only Dichlor, I would not recommend going longer than 2 months. And if you have a high bather load, I'd recommend you change your water every month.
Do NOT test pH and TA more than once a week, and do NOT retest pH and TA sooner than 6 hours after adding Up or Down.
I'm not sure the logic here. You can test TA at anytime, and it will give you the exact amount. You can test TA 15 mins after adding Acid or Baking Soda. It will not change what so ever if you wait longer. pH will tend to rise from aeration. If you understand this, you can balance your water perfectly in a few hours.
And testing for pH and TA with a high chlorine content is useless.
Again TA can be tested anytime. Chlorine will not effect TA. pH will go down as Chlorine gets used up, so I do recommend testing pH before you add Chlorine. But again, you should not try to control pH directly. The key is to tune TA to an ideal level, in order to keep your pH balanced.
;)
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and what's the best way to bring the chlorine level down to a just readable level
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If there's anything I hate about my hot tub, it's fighting with the chemicals, water balance, etc. When things are going OK, great; but when they're not, it's total frustration.
I see one of the hot tub dealers in our area is offering to make once weekly checks on the water in your hot tub and adjust things accordingly. Of course, they charge a few bucks for this service, but the beauty is you're worry and frustration free. Thinking seriously of going that route.........
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and what's the best way to bring the chlorine level down to a just readable level
Your goal is not to bring your Chlorine level down to a readable level. Your goal is to keep a residule chlorine level (>=1 ppm) at all times.
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If there's anything I hate about my hot tub, it's fighting with the chemicals, water balance, etc. When things are going OK, great; but when they're not, it's total frustration.
I see one of the hot tub dealers in our area is offering to make once weekly checks on the water in your hot tub and adjust things accordingly. Of course, they charge a few bucks for this service, but the beauty is you're worry and frustration free. Thinking seriously of going that route.........
You are exactly the reason I wrote this guide. Have you read it yet? Do you have questions?
Hot tub water maintenance is not difficult, IF you learn to do it correctly. The problem is some dealers (not all) push their spas out the door without telling the customers what's involved in maintaining the tub. You'll hear, "just add pH Up or pH Down to balance the water" and "add a TBS Dichlor after every soak and you'll be fine". That's just not good enough. Either these dealers don't know themselves, or don't want to make it sound difficult. Either way, you're out of luck, unless you go online.
Why pay someone when you don't have to? If you can learn to pay your bills and balance you checkbook, you can learn to maintain you hot tub water, IF you want to. I suggest you read this guide and try this method. If you have questions, there are plenty of people on this board that are willing to help. I can almost promise we can get you up and running, where you will be maintaining your own tub.
"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for life."
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Hmm, maybe I should post my method and name it after myself, "Spatech's simple guide to water care"! If I did I know it would be about 80% shorter in length, 5 or 6 bullet point sentences and a couple small paragraphs at most. I wonder how I'd collect royalties. Maybe I could combine it with my theories on dating and gambling?
Spatech, I'll help!
- Buy a test kit, either a Taylor K-2005 or Taylor K-2006 (if you are going to use really high levels of chlorine) and read the booklet. Learn how to use the kit. Learn how to use the watergram.
- Test your tap water, note the PH, alkalinity, calcium and chlorine readings.
- Use baking soda to adjust alkalinity up and possibly PH up as well. Use dry acid to adjust PH and/or alkalinity down. PH is more important than alkalinity. Alkalinity is there to lock in the PH. To adjust just PH use soda ash or borax.
- Use calcium chloride if you need to adjust calcium up. Use a product to help with hardness if your water is hard.
*** PH, alkalinity and calcium are RANGES not a concrete number ***
- Use a sanitizer to sanitize the water. Read the directions on the bottle for correct usage. You can use ozone and/or Nature 2 or the Frog but you must use a sanitizer. You want at least a 3 PPM chlorine reading (if you use chlorine) 20 minutes after adding chlorine and a 6 ppm bromine reading (if you use bromine). Bromine lasts longer than chlorine in hot water, chlorine is more effective at killing bacteria.
- Use MPS to shock out the combined chlorine once a week or so. Use high levels of chlorine every 2 to 3 weeks to super-chlorinate the tub and shock the tub. Find your combined chlorine reading and multiply that by 10 - that's the amount of free chlorine you need.
- Don't micromanage the water! In the beginning you will be checking every day, after you get the "feel" for your water it will be once a week or two. It does get easier as you learn to mange the water.
- MOST IMPORTANTLY -ENJOY!!!
Hopefully it's not too long
PS: One thing I've learned is that some people's water don't follow the rules that other people's water follow. Sometimes it is a matter of taking matter into your own hands. I personally have had chlorine lock; ozone doesn't work as others say it does and things that I can't explain. And another observation that I have is my spa water does not behave like my pool water and it does come out of the same tap!
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PS: One thing I've learned is that some people's water don't follow the rules that other people's water follow. Sometimes it is a matter of taking matter into your own hands. I personally have had chlorine lock; ozone doesn't work as others say it does and things that I can't explain. And another observation that I have is my spa water does not behave like my pool water and it does come out of the same tap!
The reason your water acts different in your pool than your hot tub is because of aeration. This simple fact is misunderstood by many people (including the experts). If you understand it, you can balance any hot tub water very easily.
The rules of chemistry/physics apply to all water, regardless of whether you understand them or not.
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[size=16]Water Balance[/size]
Water can be either Acidic, Balanced or Alkaline. If your water is not balanced, it could cause all kinds of problems. If it's too Acidic it could cause corrosion. If it's too Alkaline it could cause scaling. Both of which will reducing the effectiveness of your sanitizer. If your water is not balanced your water is not safe for you, or your tub. So it's really critical to get this correct.
There are four main parameters to keeping your water balanced. Water Temperature, Calcium Hardness (CH), Total Alkalinity (TA) and Potens Hydrogen (pH).
Not quite. The pH of the tub can be acidic, "balanced", or alkaline. You are completely right on the rest, but in trying to help as well, your wording could be misread.
And as for water balance factors, there are 6, not 4, that must be taken into account:
Temp, CH, TA, pH, metals and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids).
This is based on using the Langolier (or Saturation) Index. In almost all cases, however, metals will not be added into the formula. They should be considered since metals and calcium are both minerals that can and will be dissolved into water. This is the main reason most professionals use Total Hardness vs. Calcium Hardness when using the Saturation Index (SI) formula.
For those that are interested, the formula for it is as follows:
SI = Ft + pH +Fta + Fch - 12.1
Ft is the temp factor, Fta is the TA factor, Fch is the CH factor (Total Hardness could be substituted here). 12.1 is the value used assuming TDS is 1200 ppm or lower. That value must be raised by .1 for every 1000 ppm over 1200 ppm.
If anyone would like the SI Values for calculation, I'd be more than happy to post them. I, on the other hand, let my computer do the calculating for me.
Ideal range for SI is +.3 to -.3, with 0 being ideal. When SI is zero, the water is neither scale forming or corrosive. Above zero, and it tends to form scale; below zero and it tends to be corrosive.
While yes, this is overkill by most people's book, I'm only putting it out here because if we're going to give out this much information, it needs to be as complete as possible.
And if anyone would like to know where this info came from, it can be found in any BioGuard Dealers ChemPlus book.
Hope this helps. I didn't mean to make things more confusing, but I figured if anyone wanted to go to this much detail, they would like to have this as well.
T&C
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Hmm, maybe I should post my method and name it after myself, "Spatech's simple guide to water care"! If I did I know it would be about 80% shorter in length, 5 or 6 bullet point sentences and a couple small paragraphs at most. I wonder how I'd collect royalties. Maybe I could combine it with my theories on dating and gambling?
When you get a day off and are on lots of coffee I would like to read your method. Please post when you feel up to it......................
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Not quite. The pH of the tub can be acidic, "balanced", or alkaline.
Isn't that what I said?
And as for water balance factors, there are 6, not 4, that must be taken into account:
Temp, CH, TA, pH, metals and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids).
Did I not say, "there are 4 MAIN parameters"?
For those that are interested, the formula for it is as follows:
For those that are interested, goto The Pool Calculator (http://www.thepoolcalculator.com). And if you really want an education, ask Chem Geek to send you his spreadsheet.
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Spatech, I'll help!
That's the idea but even for some yours is a bit wordy. Most spa owners won't even read their manual when they have issues and want the Cliff Notes version of water care management or they just won't follow through.
A 4 page detailed instruction on water care is great for the 10% of spa owners who are willing to read through it but as those of us who work in the business, the average spa owner wants NO part of those kind of instructions and will become frustrated. I have a set of instructions I give out that work well for most. I go over it with people and for those who want to know more I go into further detail. Nitro's guide is great for the atypical spa owner who wants that kind of detail or for the spa salesman who is trying to understand the WHY behind spa water care so he can help owners.
For the typical spa owner I'll stick to instructions that simply tell them to check ph/alk and balance as needed, add sanitizer, shock weekly and clean filters monthly and I’ll do it in bullet form so it’s easy to read.
The rules of chemistry/physics apply to all water, regardless of whether you understand them or not.
Nitro,
You obviously understand more about water care than many will even know. What's missing is taking that and turning into a useful guide for the average spa owner. If you worked with spa owners teaching them directly you'd VERY quickly break that down into a usable format as it has to be in a "spa water care for dummies" format to work. Its not that people are stupid but rather most just don't want to, are too impatient, have a mental block thinking its nuclear physics, etc.
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If you worked with spa owners teaching them directly you'd VERY quickly break that down into a usable format as it has to be in a "spa water care for dummies" format to work. Its not that people are stupid but rather most just don't want to, are too impatient, have a mental block thinking its nuclear physics, etc.[/quote]
I have brought this point up in the other forum that all this information is posted in. Most customers want the KISS method I have found.
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That's the idea but even for some yours is a bit wordy. Most spa owners won't even read their manual when they have issues and want the Cliff Notes version of water care management or they just won't follow through.
A 4 page detailed instruction on water care is great for the 10% of spa owners who are willing to read through it but as those of us who work in the business, the average spa owner wants NO part of those kind of instructions and will become frustrated. I have a set of instructions I give out that work well for most. I go over it with people and for those who want to know more I go into further detail. Nitro's guide is great for the atypical spa owner who wants that kind of detail or for the spa salesman who is trying to understand the WHY behind spa water care so he can help owners.
For the typical spa owner I'll stick to instructions that simply tell them to check ph/alk and balance as needed, add sanitizer, shock weekly and clean filters monthly and I’ll do it in bullet form so it’s easy to read.
Nitro,
You obviously understand more about water care than many will even know. What's missing is taking that and turning into a useful guide for the average spa owner. If you worked with spa owners teaching them directly you'd VERY quickly break that down into a usable format as it has to be in a "spa water care for dummies" format to work. Its not that people are stupid but rather most just don't want to, are too impatient, have a mental block thinking its nuclear physics, etc.
The reason people have water problems is either they don't want to (can't) take the time to learn, or there is no one around to teach them. My guide is for the latter folks. The former folks must first learn, that they need to learn. If they don't learn that, their hot tub water is the least of their worries.
My guide is for people who are already frustrated, because they cannot figure out how to maintain their water (for whatever reason), and who come to the internet to find answers. I believe most of the people reading this forum, are willing to learn, or they wouldn't take the time to come on here. BTW, how long does it really take to read 4 pages? Compare that to the time and expense folks spend trying to fix their water problems. Besides, if that's too long, their's always the Summary.
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For the typical spa owner I'll stick to instructions that simply tell them to check ph/alk and balance as needed, add sanitizer, shock weekly and clean filters monthly and I’ll do it in bullet form so it’s easy to read.
Unfortunately that's not good enough for a lot of people, or have you not been reading these and other forums.
I personally think it's not the fault of spa owners, it's the fault of the dealers (not all). If they told their customers that if they don't read their detailed instructions and follow them carefully, there's chance they, their family and friends could get sick and/or damage their $10K hot tub, I bet they would listen. Don't you think?
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The reason people have water problems is either they don't want to (can't) take the time to learn, or there is no one around to teach them. My guide is for the latter folks. The former folks must first learn, that they need to learn. If they don't learn that, their hot tub water is the least of their worries.
My guide is for people who are already frustrated, because they cannot figure out how to maintain their water (for whatever reason), and who come to the internet to find answers. I believe most of the people reading this forum, are willing to learn, or they wouldn't take the time to come on here. [glow]BTW, how long does it really take to read 4 pages? [/glow]Compare that to the time and expense folks spend trying to fix their water problems. Besides, if that's too long, their's always the Summary.
If you ever worked in the spa industry you would know that getting the spa owner to care for their water is not as simple as you think. Your guide will work fine for 10% of spa owners if it was a dealer tried to use it IMO. That % is higher on this site of course because people coming here are generally more willing to learn than the average spa owner but I guarantee you that a majority of spa owners who saw a 4 page guide would either not get past the first page or would not even attempt it in the first place and would come into the store or call and ask "can someone explain this in simple terms". Of course a good dealer goes over this with a spa owner at time of purchase and gives a simple 1 page guide after explaining it so the customer has some reference material after the tutorial.
It’s all about understanding your audience and I'm sure many will love the "Nitro Guide to Water Maintenance" because it is very thorough but so was my chemistry textbook in college but whenever I read that I’d get half way through a section and find I retained little because my mind was wandering with thoughts of what game is on tonight, where were the parties happening, why did I choose this major where no women are in my classes, etc. I'm just speaking about what will work for a dealer and spa customers.
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And as for water balance factors, there are 6, not 4, that must be taken into account:
Temp, CH, TA, pH, metals and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids).
This is based on using the Langolier (or Saturation) Index. In almost all cases, however, metals will not be added into the formula. They should be considered since metals and calcium are both minerals that can and will be dissolved into water. This is the main reason most professionals use Total Hardness vs. Calcium Hardness when using the Saturation Index (SI) formula.
For those that are interested, the formula for it is as follows:
SI = Ft + pH +Fta + Fch - 12.1
Ft is the temp factor, Fta is the TA factor, Fch is the CH factor (Total Hardness could be substituted here). 12.1 is the value used assuming TDS is 1200 ppm or lower. That value must be raised by .1 for every 1000 ppm over 1200 ppm.
If anyone would like the SI Values for calculation, I'd be more than happy to post them. I, on the other hand, let my computer do the calculating for me.
Ideal range for SI is +.3 to -.3, with 0 being ideal. When SI is zero, the water is neither scale forming or corrosive. Above zero, and it tends to form scale; below zero and it tends to be corrosive.
While yes, this is overkill by most people's book, I'm only putting it out here because if we're going to give out this much information, it needs to be as complete as possible.
And if anyone would like to know where this info came from, it can be found in any BioGuard Dealers ChemPlus book.
You can get a reasonably accurate calculation of the saturation index by using The Pool Calculator (http://www.thepoolcalculator.com/). It is incorrect to use Total Hardness in place of Calcium Hardness. Total Hardness includes magnesium, whereas it is the saturation of calcium carbonate that is important because it is calcium carbonate that forms scale first and it is calcium carbonate that is in plaster/gunite/grout. At the same carbonate level, it takes 9 times as much magnesium as calcium to precipitate magnesium carbonate so it is NOT factor in the saturation index. You should use Calcium Hardness (CH). Generally speaking, in most water, the Total Hardness (TH) is around 40-70% higher than the Calcium Hardness (CH), but unless the magnesium were at extraordinarily high levels, then it is not a factor (except as general TDS, but you already covered that).
Also, the formula you gave is fairly standard in the industry but isn't quite right, though the accurate formula isn't much different. Mostly, the TDS and temperature adjustments are off a little (this mostly affects SWG pools and spas).
Richard
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If you ever worked in the spa industry you would know that getting the spa owner to care for their water is not as simple as you think. Your guide will work fine for 10% of spa owners if it was a dealer tried to use it IMO. That % is higher on this site of course because people coming here are generally more willing to learn than the average spa owner but I guarantee you that a majority of spa owners who saw a 4 page guide would either not get past the first page or would not even attempt it in the first place and would come into the store or call and ask "can someone explain this in simple terms". Of course a good dealer goes over this with a spa owner at time of purchase and gives a simple 1 page guide after explaining it so the customer has some reference material after the tutorial.
It’s all about understanding your audience and I'm sure many will love the "Nitro Guide to Water Maintenance" because it is very thorough but so was my chemistry textbook in college but whenever I read that I’d get half way through a section and find I retained little because my mind was wandering with thoughts of what game is on tonight, where were the parties happening, why did I choose this major where no women are in my classes, etc. I'm just speaking about what will work for a dealer and spa customers.
I'm not saying it's easy to get new customers to care for the water, nor did I say my guide will work for every new spa owner. I posted it here for the poeple who want to learn NOT to have problems. For the people that don't want to learn, well, we'll see them when they start having problems.
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For the people that don't want to learn, well, we'll see them when they start having problems.
I prefer to teach them up front but even if they've failed (yes they do listen better then) understanding HOW to teach them is important. I've dealt with the people who go in thinking they won't understand, those who've failed reading the spa manual, those who don't think they have time to listen and those who'll listen, take notes, ask questions etc. For all of them we have very effective stream lined instructions and verbally explain what it all means. I'm not an expert on water care but I am as expert as anyone at knowing how to teach relative to spas so they'll grasp it and have a shot.
I've been in close to a thousand back yards teaching people how to care for their water. I can’t talk theory like a chemist as much as I can tell people what works, what to watch for, how to adjust to certain situations, why Ph/Alk matters, etc. I also roll my eyes at comments saying if you use dichlor you need to change your water every month or two when those of us with practical experience know that is ridiculous.
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I prefer to teach them up front but even if they've failed (yes they do listen better then) understanding HOW to teach them is important. I've dealt with the people who go in thinking they won't understand, those who've failed reading the spa manual, those who don't think they have time to listen and those who'll listen, take notes, ask questions etc. For all of them we have very effective stream lined instructions and verbally explain what it all means. I'm not an expert on water care but I am as expert as anyone at knowing how to teach relative to spas so they'll grasp it and have a shot.
I've been in close to a thousand back yards teaching people how to care for their water. I can’t talk theory like a chemist as much as I can tell people what works, what to watch for, how to adjust to certain situations, why Ph/Alk matters, etc. I also roll my eyes at comments saying if you use dichlor you need to change your water every month or two when those of us with practical experience know that is ridiculous.
You have experience teaching people to maintain their spas, which is great. I myself have taught a few people in person how to maintain their water. It's much easier when you're there to show them. Unfortunately, not everone has personal access to you (or me), so they come on here.
Again, that's why I wrote this guide. However, if I knew it was going to cause this much trouble, I never would have. I'd much rather be spending my time helping spa owners, then arguing about the length and methods. ::)
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After all these negative posts about this guide, it's good to hear a POSITIVE (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=19365&view=findpost&p=77908) one.
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Nitro...wow what an amazing knowledge you have about
water quality and chemical issues with hot tubs/pools.
Thanks for your insight and sharing.
It all seems rather overwhelming to an average consumer like me.
Which begs the question....do you ever think water quality issues will
become more automated with hot tubs?
It appears to me that there is a huge segment of hot tub owners that are
confused, frustrated, and do not have the patience to keep up with the water
issues in their tub, so they basically just thrown some bromine tablets
in a float, maybe throw in some "shock" every so often, change their
water every couple of months and well...."hope for the best".[/b]
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For what it is worth, I have roughly used Richard's bleach system through at least the last 3 water changes, which is about a year. It works very well for me and my tub. You have to watch for rising PH a little more, but no real problem. The quality of the water seems to hold longer than with diclor, and the effectiveness of the sanitizer does not diminsh over time as with diclor. The system is really not very radical. It is essentially the Vermonter method, but you switch from diclor to bleach after a week or two. You can shock with MPS or diclor just as with a diclor system. There should not be a big fuss. The way a tub is used, how many users, how closely it is watched, etc will eventually lead to a particular sanitizing system. For example, if you have kids (particularly teenagers) regularly using the tub, the way I once did, the best system I found was bromine tablets in a floater. In any event, bleach can work if one wants to use it. Jeff
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Which begs the question....do you ever think water quality issues will
become more automated with hot tubs?
I think the way water maintenance becomes automated is if we demand it, and start thinking outside the box.
As I mentioned in another thread, Salt Water Chlorine Generators have been around a long time in pools, but getting more popular in spas, Onzen for instance. There is also a portable SWCG such as the Spa Pilot.
I personally like the idea of The Liquidator, built for spas, that will despense Chlorinated Liquid (Bleach) at a steady amount. It actually adds less TDS to the spa than adding straight bleach to the tub. That would allow you to go even longer between water changes.
Who knows, maybe someone on this board will come out with another idea that will make it easier/safer to maintain spa/pool water.
It appears to me that there is a huge segment of hot tub owners that are
confused, frustrated, and do not have the patience to keep up with the water
issues in their tub, so they basically just thrown some bromine tablets
in a float, maybe throw in some "shock" every so often, change their
water every couple of months and well...."hope for the best".[/b]
This is the main reason I wrote this thread. I feel that hot tub water maintenance (or anything) is more difficult the less you know about. As you learn more about something it becomes much easier. There is a learning curve with this, and ALL methods. But many people who do use this method find that it's not difficult at all. Actually, I believe it's easier, because you have far less water problems to deal with.
But I'm always looking to improve things, so this method is not the do all end all.
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For what it is worth, I have roughly used Richard's bleach system through at least the last 3 water changes, which is about a year. It works very well for me and my tub. You have to watch for rising PH a little more, but no real problem. The quality of the water seems to hold longer than with diclor, and the effectiveness of the sanitizer does not diminsh over time as with diclor. The system is really not very radical. It is essentially the Vermonter method, but you switch from diclor to bleach after a week or two. You can shock with MPS or diclor just as with a diclor system. There should not be a big fuss. The way a tub is used, how many users, how closely it is watched, etc will eventually lead to a particular sanitizing system. For example, if you have kids (particularly teenagers) regularly using the tub, the way I once did, the best system I found was bromine tablets in a floater. In any event, bleach can work if one wants to use it. Jeff
FYI, if your pH is rising to much, you can try lowering your TA to 50-60 ppm. Also, we found that the use of Borates (50 ppm) greatly reduces it pH rise. There is a product called Gentle Spa that is pH neutral, and makes it easy to Borates. The cheaper way is to use Borax (20 Mule Team) and acid. Check out The Pool Calculator for details on how much to add.
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I think the way water maintenance becomes automated is if we demand it, and start thinking outside the box.
Major problem I've seen with automated systems is the cost. I know that one of the reasons (but not all) that you prefer bleach over dichlor is the price difference.
Any time more stuff like this gets added, it gets pricey really fast. I've seen it in a number of pool systems on the market. You'll pay for the ease, but then it's just a question of what's more important to you.
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I was interested in this method, and searched for this thread. very informative, and I'm considering using this method on my recently purchased sundance optima.
I'm interested to know, nearly a decade later, how well does this advice hold up? Would anyone who subscribes to this method change anything? I'm wondering if technological progress in the last decade has outstripped parts of the advice. specifically the advice about never letting chlorine get to zero.
i have a sundance optima with clear ray and high output ozone, and mineral cartridge. My chlorine level frequently gets to zero. So, should i ignore that part? Should I ignore other parts?
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Is the Taylor test kit usable for both a spa and a pool or are we talking about two different types of test kits? Thanks
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I was interested in this method, and searched for this thread. very informative, and I'm considering using this method on my recently purchased sundance optima.
I'm interested to know, nearly a decade later, how well does this advice hold up? Would anyone who subscribes to this method change anything? I'm wondering if technological progress in the last decade has outstripped parts of the advice. specifically the advice about never letting chlorine get to zero.
i have a sundance optima with clear ray and high output ozone, and mineral cartridge. My chlorine level frequently gets to zero. So, should i ignore that part? Should I ignore other parts?
I don’t think too much has changed with the dichlor/bleach method. We bought our tub 3 years ago and for a year or so I was going crazy with bromine and mineral cartridges in a frog inline feeder system supplemented with ozone. @ease was not yet on the market.
My conclusion was the minerals don’t do enough if anything to be worth the cost. Ozone generators help to some degree but have a lifespan and diminish over that lifespan in their usefulness.
I follow the dichlor/bleach method pretty much as laid out above. I wait a bit longer for the stabilizer to around 40/50 PPM as I seem to add water and even do partial water changes during the winter months to extend water life. This method is a lot cheaper than any other method except salt generation and with salt there is a bigger up front cost if the system is built in.
Because my tub has the inline feeder I don’t use day to day I put it to use when we go away for a week or more. I put in a @ease cartridge to cover the sanitation when no one is around. I go a step more and I take the top off the cartridge and take out and store the contents and just use one forth of a cartridge per week we will be gone.
A few months back I added salt to our tub in the concentration needed for a salt to chlorine system. I wanted to see how we liked the feel of the salt. We do. Hopefully sometime before fall I will be buying a saltron mini and installing it for the tub.
I’m very happy doing the dichlor/bleach method and IMO it is the most straightforward easy to get onto method. It gets you involved with knowing what is going on with your water. I didn’t find the OP’s description to be overly complex at all.
In the end everyone finds a method that works for them best.