Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Eco_Spas on April 07, 2009, 07:36:47 pm
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Not long ago I posted a thread about "title 20" in California and the "CalPoly Test" and caught alot of flack from people saying it was an inaccurate testing method due to all the variables. Well the APSP and the Senate feel differant and have adopted 'Title 20" with "S.598" and "APSP.14" while saying "its a good starting point for saving energy" So not only is it now becoming a Federal Regulation they are going to make spa efficiency even more efficient ;) ;D
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Are you sure it's a Federal Regulation and not just a California State regulation? Regardless of whether the politicians think it's good, it still doesn't have any kind of real world testing verification. That is the problem. All the manufacturers can self-report. No independent agency for all the testing of all the manufacturers.
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Not long ago I posted a thread about "title 20" in California and the "CalPoly Test" and caught alot of flack from people saying it was an inaccurate testing method due to all the variables. Well the APSP and the Senate feel differant and have adopted 'Title 20" with "S.598" and "APSP.14" while saying "its a good starting point for saving energy" So not only is it now becoming a Federal Regulation they are going to make spa efficiency even more efficient ;) ;D
Tell us when they're going to use separate 3rd party testing for final verification rather than self reported numbers.
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Tell us when they're going to use separate 3rd party testing for final verification rather than self reported numbers.
Ive been working on having that changed to "third party testing" but now that its become Federal things should be a little easier for us to do that. I ll keep everyone posted when that happens and what the enforcment will be.
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Ive been working on having that changed to "third party testing" but now that its become Federal things should be a little easier for us to do that. I ll keep everyone posted when that happens and what the enforcment will be.
Until that happens all of this is just baby steps forward. If we can get to the point where a 3rd party has to confirm some of these hocus pocus spa insulation schemes REALLY pass the standards then we've taken a major leap.
Of course it would be nice to know how much they pass by because one spa could barely pass and while another blows the standard away but I'd be happy if we could at least get some of these bogus claims of energy efficiency confirmed/denied.
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HUH! I read the bill, "Appliance Standards Improvement Act of 2009", and there's no mention of spa, hot tubs, or title 20.
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s598/text
http://energy.senate.gov/public/_files/S598.pdf
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Ive been working on having that changed to "third party testing" but now that its become Federal things should be a little easier for us to do that. I ll keep everyone posted when that happens and what the enforcment will be.
Why do you keep saying that this has become a federal law? Where are you getting that information?
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HUH! I read the bill, "Appliance Standards Improvement Act of 2009", and there's no mention of spa, hot tubs, or title 20.
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s598/text
http://energy.senate.gov/public/_files/S598.pdf
I read it to and didn't see anything about Portable Hot Tubs????? I musta missed it! Had to of been an oversite on my part. I'm sorry I just didn't see it, must be getting old.
Either that or it's BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
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I read it to and didn't see anything about Portable Hot Tubs????? I musta missed it! Had to of been an oversite on my part. I'm sorry I just didn't see it, must be getting old.
Either that or it's BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
The link that Andy posted to the S.598 is from march 16th, thats not the correct one you need to look at the updated S.598 from march 27th. and as for the APSP-14 that is still being wrote. Just thought I would give everyone the heads up before it goes into effect. If you still think its BS just contact Carvin at the APSP and ask him yourself.
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So by giving us a heads up, what exactly are we suppose to keep a heads up for??
To me this seems more like a Manufacturer issue which includes all of us as dealers, but we don't build the things, and I am sure the manufacturers are well aware of whats going on and will comply if needed,if it gets to that.
To me it seems someone in the private sector is trying to save his job by creating BS issues about the energy efficiency of refrigerators and dishwashers. How much more efficient can a refrigerator get, same goes with a spa, I am sure they could tighten the noose a bit, but at some point a spa or dishwasher for that matter can only get so efficient? If a spa is say 90% efficient in S,California will it be 90% efficient in Fargo ND in the middle of winter?
Call me confused and I may be reading this wrong so forgive me if that's so?
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Come on now Jess. The few of us that figured out who you are, are patiently waiting for you to start spamming your "product". How much longer are we going to have to wait?
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This (meaning this post) is all perpetrated by "someone" that has a new design for a spa cover that they believe (what designer doesn't believe in their own product) is the "better mouse trap". In reality, it's no better than any cover with a fully insulated hinge. The biggest disadvantage, beside the added manufacturing cost, passed on to the consumer of course, is that the cover incorporates a custom integrated cover lifter, meaning that when it's time to replace the cover (if you want to continue using the lift), you have NO choice but to go back to the original manufacture for the cover.
So by giving us a heads up, what exactly are we suppose to keep a heads up for??
To me this seems more like a Manufacturer issue which includes all of us as dealers, but we don't build the things, and I am sure the manufacturers are well aware of whats going on and will comply if needed,if it gets to that.
To me it seems someone in the private sector is trying to save his job by creating BS issues about the energy efficiency of refrigerators and dishwashers. How much more efficient can a refrigerator get, same goes with a spa, I am sure they could tighten the noose a bit, but at some point a spa or dishwasher for that matter can only get so efficient? If a spa is say 90% efficient in S,California will it be 90% efficient in Fargo ND in the middle of winter?
Call me confused and I may be reading this wrong so forgive me if that's so?
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Come on now Jess. The few of us that figured out who you are, are patiently waiting for you to start spamming your "product". [glow]How much longer are we going to have to wait[/glow]?
HAHAHA!! Sorry Andy, but youll have to wait for a awile. Im guessing cause 1. Im not Jess, yes i did work for him awile ago 2. He can push his own product I just test them. 3. Yes, Ive tested your cover also and although I dont see where you came up with R-21?but its a very nice cover ;D
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Eco,
The March 16th is all that is on http://energy.senate.gov/public/
If you have updated info, please post and post a link. :'(
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1 pound EPS foam = R-3.85 per inch
6 x 4 tapered cover, average thickness 5" = R-19.25
polyethylene = R-0.85
subtotal = R-20.1
Add the R value of the vinyl top side and scrim underside, and it's an easy R-21. And this assumes a cover 8' long. As it gets shorter, the R value goes up (smaller covers are made by cutting away the thinnest part of the cover)
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1 pound EPS foam = R-3.85 per inch
6 x 4 tapered cover, average thickness 5" = R-19.25
polyethylene = R-0.85
subtotal = R-20.1
Add the R value of the vinyl top side and scrim underside, and it's an easy R-21. And this assumes a cover 8' long. As it gets shorter, the R value goes up (smaller covers are made by cutting away the thinnest part of the cover)
So, what does an 8' cover weigh?
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If you still think its BS just contact Carvin at the APSP and ask him yourself.
Carvin isn't interested in helping anyone that doesn't pay APSP dues. Already tried that route. He didn't even bother to send a return email when I told him we weren't APSP members.
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Also, to repeat an earlier question I had on a different thread that you failed to answer, what exactly qualifies you as a "Green Engineer"?
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A bit off topic but this was pushed at a local home show event we attended a couple of weeks ago. People were really buying it till they got to our booth. Nice idea but it really doesn't hold water in my opinion.
Thoughts?
http://www.beachcomberhottubs.com/hot-tub-lineup/hybrid-hot-tub.asp
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So, what does an 8' cover weigh?
I haven't weighed one in so long I don't remember ;D For shipping purposes it really doesn't matter as they're WAY under the minimum weight and get billed at a lot more. Recollection, around 40 pounds for 8x8, 6x4 tapered, 1 pound density cover.
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HEY! NEW TITLE 20 INFO apparently!
"Every Beachcomber hot tub tested by the California Energy Commission has passed their stringent Title 20 energy efficiency guidelines."
According to them, the CEC is NOW testing spas.
Finally, 3rd party testing?
A bit off topic but this was pushed at a local home show event we attended a couple of weeks ago. People were really buying it till they got to our booth. Nice idea but it really doesn't hold water in my opinion.
Thoughts?
http://www.beachcomberhottubs.com/hot-tub-lineup/hybrid-hot-tub.asp
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Okay, I may be missing something here or maybe I'm just dense, but isn't their on-demand heating system just a thermostat to activate the heater? Are they saying their other tubs use the old-style timers for their cycles? If so, that's not an improvement. It's just a slick way of describing what the spa already does. Somebody please tell me I'm missing something.
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HEY! NEW TITLE 20 INFO apparently!
"Every Beachcomber hot tub tested by the California Energy Commission has passed their stringent Title 20 energy efficiency guidelines."
According to them, the CEC is NOW testing spas.
Finally, 3rd party testing?
Maybe they are saying THEY are the new third party testing facility for the CEC. :D
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HEY! NEW TITLE 20 INFO apparently!
"Every Beachcomber hot tub tested by the California Energy Commission has passed their stringent Title 20 energy efficiency guidelines."
According to them, the CEC is NOW testing spas.
Finally, 3rd party testing?
Acctually, the test they are refering to is the CalPoly test conducted by the APSP(not the CEC) Beachcomber did have three spas at that test(small, medium, and large, size) but none of them were a "HYBRID" model. As for hybrid everyone knows that to be a hybrid it must use 2 different sources of power to run. This tub is not a" true" hybrid. All they did was put the Skid Pack in a box shaped like stairs and fully foamed all 4 sides of the cabinet then gave it a fancy name they know that sells. So theres my opinon of thier "hybrid" tub.
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Okay, I may be missing something here or maybe I'm just dense, but isn't their on-demand heating system just a thermostat to activate the heater? Are they saying their other tubs use the old-style timers for their cycles? If so, that's not an improvement. It's just a slick way of describing what the spa already does. Somebody please tell me I'm missing something.
No your not missing anything, it is/was all smoke and mirror type stuff, circ is always optional so the may include it now, the temp is controllable and the system set up is probably filter cycles and economy modes which most if not all spas have.
If you do the external pack which is an upgrade yu have to have the step which I looked at it. Its wood with foil type bubble wrap for insulation stapled inside.
They do have a UV ozone system which they said was not a ozone system but more like a filter system with a UV light yeah go figure? Supposedly the water flows through the light which kills bacteria,kinda like they do in Hospital ventilation systems.
Prolly works to some extent.
The whole thing to me appeared to be just new marketing BS not a bad idea I am sure some people buy into it? Not at that show they didn't though. ;)
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Acctually, the test they are refering to is the CalPoly test conducted by the APSP(not the CEC) Beachcomber did have three spas at that test(small, medium, and large, size) but none of them were a "HYBRID" model. As for hybrid everyone knows that to be a hybrid it must use 2 different sources of power to run. This tub is not a" true" hybrid. All they did was put the Skid Pack in a box shaped like stairs and fully foamed all 4 sides of the cabinet then gave it a fancy name they know that sells. So theres my opinon of thier "hybrd" tub.
Its something they did? It is something they have always done, just called it something else.
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Also, to repeat an earlier question I had on a different thread that you failed to answer, what exactly qualifies you as a "Green Engineer"?
Shammus, I also just gave myself a fancy name ;D Im really just a Mechanical Engineer, but I focus my work on developing ways to make spas more "eco-friendly".
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They do have a UV ozone system which they said was not a ozone system but more like a filter system with a UV light yeah go figure?
It's called a UV sterilizer. Yup, works as the describe. Water's passed by the UV bulb and the UV rays kill bacteria. While is is a UV bulb, it's a slightly different frequency than that for ozone. As such, while they do produce some ozone, it's very little. One of the "problems" for hot tub use is that water has to pass quite slowly by the bulb for it to have the desired effect (killing stuff). SO slowly, it's very easy for bacteria in the main body of water to multiply faster than the UV is killing it.
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Typically UV is used with hydrogen peroxide.
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It's called a UV sterilizer. Yup, works as the describe. Water's passed by the UV bulb and the UV rays kill bacteria. While is is a UV bulb, it's a slightly different frequency than that for ozone. As such, while they do produce some ozone, it's very little. One of the "problems" for hot tub use is that water has to pass quite slowly by the bulb for it to have the desired effect (killing stuff). SO slowly, it's very easy for bacteria in the main body of water to multiply faster than the UV is killing it.
Doc
This is the same system that is used in municipal water treatment and you are quite right in saying it works well, very well actually. The one thing you missed was that it is not used to "kill" anything. UV at this wavelength is used to sterilize the little critters. The lamp effects them on a DNA level and stops them from multiplying.
The problem with it is not so much the speed of the water passing the lamp, its the "masking" effect (when one bug hides behind the other)
Still a very effective way to treat water
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Typically UV is used with hydrogen peroxide.
????????
Not to my knowledge
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One bug in the "shadow" of another? Never heard or considered this. Makes perfect sense though.
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This (meaning this post) is all perpetrated by "someone" that has a new design for a spa cover that they believe (what designer doesn't believe in their own product) is the "better mouse trap". In reality, it's no better than any cover with a fully insulated hinge. The biggest disadvantage, beside the added manufacturing cost, passed on to the consumer of course, is that the cover incorporates a custom integrated cover lifter, meaning that when it's time to replace the cover (if you want to continue using the lift), you have NO choice but to go back to the original manufacture for the cover.
I will have to say, you do not need to purchase a cover from them, you can purchase the bar to go across and use for any cover. I do not work for these guys, but have been selling their lifters and a few of their covers for the past couple of years. The lifters are great. The covers are holding up very well here in the northeast, as far as better energy costs, I can't say, just wanted to add that you can purchase the cross bar if you do not want another of their covers.
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????????
Not to my knowledge
ftp://http://www.water.siemens.com/en/products/chemical_feed_disinfection/ultraviolet_disinfection/pages/default.aspx
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ftp://http://www.water.siemens.com/en/products/chemical_feed_disinfection/ultraviolet_disinfection/pages/default.aspx
Dan,
Your link won't work.
To the best of my knowledge most of the municipal water and waste-water plants that use UV do so in conjunction with chlorine. Some of the larger plants use chlorine gas and the smaller use sodium hypochlorite. Peroxide is not a cost effective sanitizer (too expensive)
UV sterilization is normally also used as an alternative to ozone and not in conjunction with.
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I will have to say, you do not need to purchase a cover from them, you can purchase the bar to go across and use for any cover. I do not work for these guys, but have been selling their lifters and a few of their covers for the past couple of years. The lifters are great. The covers are holding up very well here in the northeast, as far as better energy costs, I can't say, just wanted to add that you can purchase the cross bar if you do not want another of their covers.
As far as buying the bar-style lifter, you are correct. But their owner has said to me more than a couple of times that his plan is the eventually eliminate it altogether and move people toward the integrated product. Considering he has changed his wholesale website to a retail website, you can't even find info on the original system being available for wholesale purchase. I'm not sure how a new reseller would even be able to find info on the original product to buy it.
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Maybe we are talking about different companies, I was talking about cover play, which you can by the cover/lifter system or just the lifter system. You can purchase the bar to put on the lifter system if you do not want to repurchase their cover next time.
http://www.coverplay.com/group.asp?grp=6 This is the site for the lifter
http://www.coverplay.com/group.asp?grp=46 This is for the cover.
Are we talking about the same people? I have had no issues with these guys at all, they have been really great.
What I ment is the lifter that is intergrated into the cover does not have to be replaced, you can purchase just the bar that goes across the tub if you want to use it with another cover lifter.
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It's the same company.