Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: InneedofaTUB on October 13, 2008, 05:25:59 pm
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Hello and first of all thanks for any help. looking for a new tub and my choices are limited due to location. can't even find a dealer that will wet test. best dealers in the are carry jacuzzi j-345 $6900 bullfrog 451 $6500, three rivers spas 840-d $6200. any suggestions or thoughts are welcome.. once again thanks!!!
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Hello and first of all thanks for any help. looking for a new tub and my choices are limited due to location. can't even find a dealer that will wet test. best dealers in the are carry jacuzzi j-345 $6900 bullfrog 451 $6500, three rivers spas 840-d $6200. any suggestions or thoughts are welcome.. once again thanks!!!
Cant help you with 3 rivers spas never heard of them, the price you have on the J-345 is very very good! The Bullfrog is a decent spa but don't know a lot about those either. Never really got into the whole change a pack theory. Have you wet tested? If not you should and see what you like and don't like about the two spas.
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Three Rivers has some great points that I like. For one thing they do not have diverter valves so you can use all of the jets at the same time. Nobody gets robbed of a massage.
No circ pump means one less thing to break down.
Icynene foam is also used by Marquis. Icynene is used to insulate homes.
You gotta wet test before you lay down the cash. It's the only way to find out if the seating will properly fit you and if the jetting massages you well enough.
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Three Rivers has some great points that I like. For one thing they do not have diverter valves so you can use all of the jets at the same time. Nobody gets robbed of a massage.
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Thats a negative for me, we usually have 2 people in a 6 person spa, so I like to steal all the power to my seat on occasion.
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Thats a negative for me, we usually have 2 people in a 6 person spa, so I like to steal all the power to my seat on occasion.
I agree. I feel the ability to divert power to different seats is a plus. I also like circ pumps. Different strokes for different folks.
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The diverter can give you more jet variety. For example, there is a seat in the HotSpring Envoy which has 16 jets. You have jets from your neck to your feet. But you would go nuts with all that action all the time. By splitting the seat up with a diverter, and by putting some jets on different jet pumps, you can get it all, or various different groups of jets.
Also - most diverters can be set to the mid-point you like. That gives you wonderful control over the pressure of the jets from mild to wild.
8-)
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Chubby, Can you tell me how long Marquis has been using Icynene?
Did they just switch lately, or have the used it for several years?
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There just isn't any other way to get maximum power to the minimum number of jets in a spa than to divert. A spa without diverters simply cannot give the same massage short of being inefficient and putting more pumps or just plumbing in a few jets per pump.
I would personally avoid three rivers...The guy that started that was a VP at Master spas and is giving it a try on his own. They sell about as much as a factory as I do as a retail store and don't have enough history for me to be comfortable with.
I talked with one of the owners of Master a few years ago after he left and they blamed just about all their quality control issues on him. I'm not sure if that was just sour apples or the truth but when I brought it up with someone at Balboa they concurred with that statement.
Looking at their product I see a lot things that other manufactures put on their entry level just to get down to a price point. Their Equipment packs, Jets, filtration and even pillows are pretty “entry level”
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I sell Three Rivers along with several other brands. I also service many other brands from other dealers and homeowners. I really like the Three Rivers and can honestly say that I would recommend them to my own family. They are a great mid priced spa with nice features and craftsmanship. You get a lot for your money and they have very consistent quality. The company itself has also been excellent to work with.
As for diverters, some may like them, I don’t. I often have many people in the spa and like to have full power to all of the seats. If I’m alone, I just turn on one pump, no need to adjust anything.
I sell spas with and without circ pumps. They both have their pros and cons. Circ pumps are quiet, and can add more ozone (if equipped) to the water by running constantly. Spas without circ pumps have one less thing to service and you can set the filtration time to meet your exact needs. More filtration when you need it, and less when you don’t.
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This is quite the little comercial these "newbies"are Putting up, why not just come on and introduce yourself and your brand, talk about your construction and opinion of how a spa should be built. I can tell you from experience, diverters are simply another dimension of directing the water, and giving you one more option of changing the whole spa experience. Most small companies cut them out in order to cut the cost of manufacturing. The same goes with circ pumps, spa companies should atleast offer it as an option. The Three Rivers Spas seem to be at best an economical option to go against the walmart spas. Good luck with that! I went on their site and heard birdies chirping "cheep,cheep,cheep"
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I still don't know or need to know about 3 rivers spa's, I did however think to myself, what a coincidence.
If he is gonna hang around welcome! If not see ya!!
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I still don't know or need to know about 3 rivers spa's, I did however think to myself, what a coincidence.
If he is gonna hang around welcome! If not see ya!!
I'll chime in because I recognized that name since it is rather unique. MaRiSpaTech is someone who semi regularly posts on the poolspa forum. I know when we see someone make their first post and its on a brand seldom talked about it seems coincidental but he's just new to this site.
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I have some questions about Three Rivers spas. On the TR840, which filters are you using? I do like the location of the filter housing, I am wondering about removing 2 50' filters from this small opening. How much insulation is under the footwells? What is the construction under the spa like? One suggestion is that in fact if you are using 2x4's in the framing, is it on all 4 sides? WHy not use pressure treated lumber. Are there any supports under the step and the lounge? What is the bonding agent between the acrylic and the fiberglass? Are you using slice valves? Though it may cost more, why not go to the 5 yr warranty?Hey I am just curious!
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Well, let me formally introduce myself (sorry to hijack the post) I have been lurking on this site for perhaps years. I have been a member of another forum for over a year. I’m not one to tout the brands that I sell whenever someone comes on asking “what should I buy”. However, if I can offer my opinion or experience when someone asks a specific question that I have more knowledge about, I will do so. I have had my head in and hands on a wide range of spas. Sure, not as many as some of you, but enough to form an opinion. I am perhaps the only person (dealer) in this forum to have experience with Three Rivers beyond visiting the website. I never said that they are the best spa or better then any other brand, but I feel that they are a good quality, well built tub with great customer service. I have no intention on arguing about diverters, circ pumps, or full foam vs. not. Some stuff cost more, which is reflected in the price. Not everyone wants or needs these things, but still want something built well.
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Thanks for all the input. I couldn't find any thing on three river spas and that why I asked. they seemed to have what I needed in a spa at an affordable price. I have found that the price I was quoted for the jacuzzi is a pretty good deal, but being the newbie I am, 22 jets didn't seem like enough. I do have questions about the 3 rivers structure. I have called a few refrences and they did say they have great customer service and the spas have been problem free. I just don't feel like paying $10,000 for a hot tub right now. and I feel comfortable with the dealer.
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Thanks for all the input. I couldn't find any thing on three river spas and that why I asked. they seemed to have what I needed in a spa at an affordable price. I have found that the price I was quoted for the jacuzzi is a pretty good deal, but being the newbie I am, 22 jets didn't seem like enough. I do have questions about the 3 rivers structure. I have called a few refrences and they did say they have great customer service and the spas have been problem free. I just don't feel like paying $10,000 for a hot tub right now. and I feel comfortable with the dealer.
The added 2 years of warranty alone is worth the $700 for the Jacuzzi, also your warranty is not void if the temperature happens to drop below 34 degrees. (if you go with the Jacuzzi) 8-)
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So, if you loose power and your spa freezes, Jacuzzi will fix it under warranty??? Just curious.
I can sell you a 7 year warranty for $250
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One of my dealers brought this thread to my attention and I feel that there a few points that I need to address in this post. First let me introduce myself to this forum. My name is Paul Wybo and I am the owner of Three Rivers Spas. I am a Mechanical Engineer with 8 years of experience in industrial waste water treatment and 14 years experience designing and manufacturing portable electric spas. I worked for 10 years for 2 very large manufacturers of spas in the capacity of product development and manufacturing. In 2005 I started Three Rivers Spas with the goal of supplying a good quality spa at a reasonable price. Three Rivers Spas is now a manufacturer of portable electric spas supplying dealers and distributors in 5 countries worldwide and continuing to develop new territories.
It is not my intent to provide this forum with an answer to the question "What's the best hot tub?" but to answer any questions regarding spas and their design to the best of my experience and knowledge. I can be contacted by email at pwybo@trspas.com to answer questions and I will try to check into this forum when I have an opportunity.
Three Rivers Spas only uses the best quality components available in the industry in the construction of our spas. Although some of our components are generic, we believe that the expense of a custom part does not increase the quality or the user experience of the spa and only adds to the cost of the product. Since our goal is to provide quality spas at a reasonable price, we cannot justify the expense of custom tooling when a quality part is available.
When we develop our pump and jetting combinations, we size our pumps according to the number of jets that will be installed on the pump. Adding a diverter valve will allow the user more control over the flow to specific jets, but it also changes the flow rate and the back pressure on the pump. Pumps will operate most efficiently and last the longest when they are operated at the optimum flow rate. Diverters will increase flow when they are in the center position and create back pressure when they are adjusted to one side or the other. This changes the load on the pump and moves the flow rate from the ideal efficiency. We feel that the undue stress on the pump will reduce its lifespan and this is inconsistent to our philosophy of producing a quality spa.
The two 50 square foot filters are located in the filter housing behind the weir skimmer door. When the faceplate is removed, the filters can easily be accessed. Our frames are constructed using 2" x 2" cut from a 2" x 4" piece of lumber. The 2x4 is a dimension piece of wood that is much straighter and is made of better quality lumber than a 2x2. Our frames are built with a "stick" frame construction similar to that of a house and they have been designed to support the load of the spa. We use pressure treated lumber where the frame contacts wet surfaces, but do not feel the extra expense is justified in areas that will not be exposed to the elements. Our shells are constructed of cast acrylic with an ABS backing and they are re-enforced with a two part urethane compound. Urethane offers better adhesion and has similar structural properties to fiberglass and it is an environmentally friendly alternative to styrene. We also use slice valves on both of our pumps. Even though this adds expense, it is valuable if service is required.
Three Rivers Spas does not offer a spa that will suit every buyer. All of the features we install on our spas have been tested and proven to be of the highest quality and reliability. We have never selected a component of lesser quality to save money, but we will select components that are less expensive as long as they do not impact the function or reliability of the spa. Our goal to make a quality spa at an affordable price does not always allow us to match all of the features of our competitors spas, but if a feature can be added without sacrificing quality or function and will improve the spa experience, we will make it part of our product offering.
As far as claims by dealers that they are selling more spas than we manufacture, I do not know how they would know what our sales figures are any more than I would know how many spas that they sell. I cannot comment on the opinion of my previous employer and they are entitled to their opinion and is is just an opinion, but Balboa supplies us with our lighting systems and several of our A/V components, so I doubt that they would be claiming that we are a poor quality manufacturer. Three Rivers Spas dealers who sell and service our product are the only people qualified to make claims to the quality of the product that we sell and the customer service that we offer. Anyone else is just trying to discredit a product and company that they know very little about. We are currently still doing business with every dealer that we have ever had so there are not even any ex-dealers that may have had a bad experience with us out there that would be able to make these statements.
I am sorry about the long post, but there were a lot of questions that needed to be addressed. If you have any more questions or concerns regarding Three Rivers Spas, please contact me directly at the email address above.
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Well I’ve never even heard of them but someone often brings up a name that makes me Google them. I looked at their site and the spa molds look pretty basic like other smaller regional brands out there like Phoenix, Diamante, etc. What part of the country are they in? Is it the Pittsburgh area like the name suggests?
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So, if you loose power and your spa freezes, Jacuzzi will fix it under warranty??? Just curious.
I can sell you a 7 year warranty for $250
Who said anything about losing power? The Three river warranty states that if you oprtate your spa outside of the perimeters on 34 degrees farenheith and 120 degrees farenheit the warranty is basically void.
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LOL. Ok, I give. If you plan to soak in water that is below freezing, or cook lobster in your spa, you better not get a Three Rivers. The clear choice there is jacuzzi or other brand.
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PAul, so the earlier implication made by your comrad of the spas being constructed of 2x4's was a lie, I find the implication of a 2x4 being wripped is stronger than an actual milled 2x2 to be rediculous and to be just a story. The fact that you believe that you only need pressure treated lumber on the bottom is silly. WHat happens when the snow packs up against the spa and begins to melt saturating the 2x2's that are not pressure treated. Does it not deteriorate the wood? Are you using anything as a base on the spa?
THe story of not using diverter valves is pretty good as you are correct it does decrease when you use the diverter to create a 90 degree angle. This would imply that you do not use 90 degree angles in your spa is this correct?
Further if you could explain the warranty not being valid if the spa is operated outside the parimeters of 34 and 120 degrees.
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LOL. Ok, I give. If you plan to soak in water that is below freezing, or cook lobster in your spa, you better not get a Three Rivers. The clear choice there is jacuzzi or other brand.
So you are saying this is stated regarding the temp of the water? How could you possibly operate the spa and decrease the temp below 34 degrees? How are you going to get it above 120?? WOW! This gets better by the minute.
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Doesn't matter much either way, seems the guy is happy with the 3 rivers spa, personally I think for the price the J-345 is the better spa jet wise power wise and what it has to offer in general, and trust me 22 jets are more than enough in the J-345. Of course it doesn't sound like he's wet tested, but that's his choice and I am sure he will be happy with it.
When I get time I will check the spas out.
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Spa Man
I hope that you are having fun trying to confuse the consumer. It is no wonder that spa sales are down nationwide with the selling technique that I am seeing in your posts.
We use stud grade certified 2x4 lumber that we rip in half to get our 2x2's. 2x2's are made of the small piece of heart wood that is left over when all of the good lumber is cut from the tree. This leftover lumber is used for 2x2's and is prone to warping and provide less structure and are recomended for use as strapping and not for structural support. We also use several pieces of 2x4 for our vertical supports in the frame. As I said before, our frames have been designed to support the load of the spa. Since there are both 2x2s and 2x4s in our frame construction, my colleague is not lying about his claim. When snow piles up against a spa, it needs to melt in order to turn into water. Unless the spa is standing in 4" of water, the synthetic panels will protect the rest of the wood from exposure to standing water. We install a polyethylene cover on the bottom of the spa to keep the pressure treated toe kick from sitting directly on wood or concrete. The bottom pad will allow drainage to prevent the accumulation of water.
You are correct that we do use 90 degree elbows in our plumbing. Your confusion lies in the fact that we design our plumbing flow rates and match them to the pump that is installed. The diverter allows the flow rate to be varied by the user and is not a controlled flow rate. Place an amp meter on the pump wiring and vary the flow rate with the diverter. You will see that the amp draw changes reflecting the change in load on the pump motor.
Our spas have been tested to UL 1563 that requires that the water temperature set point can only be varied between 50F and 104F. It is impossible to operate the spa at a temperature above or below this setpoint. If the temperature of the spa goes above 112F, the safety feature on the spa pack will shut it down due to a high limit failure. If the temperature drops below 40F, the pack will go into smart winter mode and attempt to protect the spa from freezing. Our warranty states that if any damages occur when the water temperature exceeds 120F or drops below 34F that it is not a fault of the spa and was caused by external circumstance and the spa will not be covered. The warranty may not clearly state that we are referring to water temperature instead of air temperature, but since the spa is designed to operate in all climates and has built in protection to prevent it from operating outside of these temperature ranges the disclaimer refers to problems arising from water temperatures outside these parameters.
This is pretty standard stuff and all spas that pass UL1563 standards have these same built in features and as a professional, you should know this. If you have a spa that is covered under warranty for damage from freezing or at water temperatures exceeding 120F, then you need to send me a copy of that warranty or you could be accused of passing misleading information.
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Hello and first of all thanks for any help. looking for a new tub and my choices are limited due to location. can't even find a dealer that will wet test. best dealers in the are carry jacuzzi j-345 $6900 bullfrog 451 $6500, three rivers spas 840-d $6200. any suggestions or thoughts are welcome.. once again thanks!!!
The quote on the Bullfrog 451 is a fair price. I know we have a few happy 451 owners on this forum, they might be able to share what they paid. Good luck.
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We spoke with Paul Wybo when we first opened our store in 2005. He was great to talk with and had a nice mid level tub. We choose not to carry them because at the time they were new to the industry and they did not have the features we needed for our customers.
Good luck Paul and keep plugging along. Just don't pull an Infinity and start making a piece of turd because you are trying to shove to many out the door and don't care about customers!
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Checked out the website nothing really stands out as far as the spas go, kinda look like an Artesian Island class, the lounger leave a lot to be desired. All in all not a bad spa, but in my opinion does not compare to the Jacuzzi 300 series, more like the 200 series. For 6200 compared to the 6900 of the Jacuzzi it would be a no brainer the Jacuzzi would win out. But that's my opinion.
I found the warranty lacking, read the part about the cabinet must be a typo, or I am not reading it right??
http://www.trspas.com/warranty.html
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Paul, How come you don't offer a zip code dealer locator or an 800 number on your website? You do offer a phone number but why should a customer have to spend money just to find a dealer? Could you please explain?
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From the TRS warranty:
Three Year Cabinet Warranty
Most real estate agents acknowledge that homes advertised with a hot tub will generate more inquires and sell more quickly than a similar home without a portable hot tub.
What? How does what realtors say have to do with the warranty. ;) You might want to fix that.
I would like to know where that information comes from anyway. I've had two homes with a hot tub that I've sold. Neither of the buyers wanted the hot tub and I had to get rid of it by selling it on my own.
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One other question for Paul on the warranty. What is the warranty on the spas that are not Premium? Your website only gives the warranty for the Premium series. Or all of your spas in the premium series? Just curious.
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A buddy of mine has 6 pumps in his spa (Artesian).
:o
I think I'd be selling that behemoth when the warranty expired.
He's had a few pumps serviced/replaced several times already after about 2 years.
There just isn't any other way to get maximum power to the minimum number of jets in a spa than to divert. A spa without diverters simply cannot give the same massage short of being inefficient and putting more pumps or just plumbing in a few jets per pump.
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Paul, How come you don't offer a zip code dealer locator or an 800 number on your website? You do offer a phone number but why should a customer have to spend money just to find a dealer? Could you please explain?
Our company email addresses are located on our web page. We can be contacted via email free of charge if you are interested in finding a dealer near you.
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One other question for Paul on the warranty. What is the warranty on the spas that are not Premium? Your website only gives the warranty for the Premium series. Or all of your spas in the premium series? Just curious.
All of the spas on our webpage are the Premium Series Spas.
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Paul, The stress on the 56 frame pump is very minimal, you would put more stress on the pump by adjusting several of the jets down than you would using a diverter. Essentially by turning a diverter all you are doing is creating a 90. They are a great feature! I do understand if you do not want to spend the money. Further you are correct, it is my fault spa sales are down nation wide.
Lastly, a 2x2 is a 2x2 no matter how you slice it, I grew up in Idaho, my dad was a sawyer and a saw filer for the local saw mill. Here is the method they use still today in making lumber, the log is sent into the debarker, then a shaper creating a 12x12 plank, the plank is then sent into either a 2x12 saw where the plank is formed into 6 2x12 boards (some are sent into a 4x12 but few). The 2x12 are then sent into another saw, this saw is set at the dimensions of either 2x2,2x4,3x3,2x6,few are done @2x8,2x10or adjusted to 4x4. The lumber is then sent into a plainer and on to a green chain where the lumber is sorted and stacked and ultimately sent to Home DEpot for spa maunfactures to dig through and get the best they can find. The cracked pieces or "imperfect pieces are sent through as stakes and lathe. The reason 2x2s you find at say Homedepot are warped and twisted is because of their thin shape and the fact that they have not been dried properly. A pressure treated 2x2 has been dried and cured and is much stronger than the cheap and twisted 2x2 of Home Depot. If you were to wrip a 2x4 in two and it was not cured yet you would have the same twisting and shrinking.
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So Paul...Is this your factory?
(http://www0.globexplorer.com/tiles/img?p=mercator-ellipsoid&n=1&l=1&t=a&e=0&xi=69048&yi=98311&z=18&key=iFb8UFInbweGlkYPqqYTMBgWfxsg96sqHWM5yuI9tQNkWfiwgN47JgEF6GbTzC3o)
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Tazman, That is not our factory, it is the bigger building beside the image you have shown.
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Tazman, That is not our factory, it is the bigger building beside the image you have shown.
WHEW! I was gonna say "it may be short but it sure is skinny" ;D
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Nothing wrong with short and skinny! That building is on our property, but it is leased out to another business. Our factory is 56,000 square feet and we have 7 additional acres for expansion.
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Inneed,
Wow, this is one of the better one's I've seen lately, but I haven't been around as much as I'd like (I run a service/install department - and have been slammed with deliveries for a couple months).
Back to your original post - that is a very good price on a 451 (especially if you have some nice JetPaks and features with it).
One JetPak advantage for a spa owner is the ability to customize your therapy (regardless of the number of jets - think feeling, not stats). This can be more important for a new spa owner - if you buy a setup that doesn't work for you down the road - swap 'em.
That DOES NOT mean you should skip a wet test - even though you could switch jets, you will need to find the most comfortable mold for you.
Btw, with Bullfrog you don't need to worry about 2x2 vs. 2x4 construction - no wood, 100% synthetic frame (yes with extra supports).
I hope you're enjoying this thread as much as I am... ;)
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WHEW! I was gonna say "it may be short but it sure is skinny" ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
[size=48]LMAO![/size]
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New dilema, additional cash now for Hot tub budget 8-) Going to actually get to wet test a hotspring vista, the three rivers model. But I have found another dealer who has Vita Spas? anybody have any comments on them?
thanks
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We bought a Three Rivers Hot tub back in 2008, worst hot tub we have ever owned. We decided to go with a Three River because a friend of a friend was a dealer. He lied to us about the Hot Tub, he said he would service it when ever needed. He sold us the cheapest filters for $40 dollars a piece and come to find out I could have bought them for $12.00 on the Internet. The dealer would nver respond to v-mail..once hsold it e was done...We have had so many issues with this Hot tub and had to all a Thermospa repair person to come and fix it. Now both seals have gone out on the pumps. About every six months something else goes out on this ot tub. Pretty soon I am going to did a hole in the ground ad make a pond out of it. I have known several people with thermospas and they have to had any issues at all with there tubs and theyhave owned them longer than we have owned this thermospa. Do not buy a Three Rivers spa shop before you buy.....these a not high quality, I paid $5400 for this and would never buy another one.