Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: knightcap on August 09, 2008, 04:27:09 pm
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I have a two year old hot tub, typical acrylic shell. I have a crack in the shell, about 1.5 inches long and about the width of a finger nail. Water is leaking through it. I tried to repair it using some Plumbers Epoxy Putty from Home Depot, but it didn't work -- water still leaks, and it never really cured, as I can pick it out with a knife.
Dealer is no help -- says the manaufacturer went out of business, so my 10 year warranty is no good, and the dealer won't help -- Prestige Pools in St. Louis. Stay away from them!
Can anyone suggest a product or a method to repair this? I see a lot of products on the Internet -- anyone have any experience with any of them? Thanks for your help!
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Well, first, if this is an acrylic shell backed with fiberglass, then the crack should not be leaking. What most folk don't realize is that the acrylic shell in their fiberglass-backed spa is often quite permeable, and the fiberglass is what holds the water.
So, I would look for another source of your leak. And easy way to tell - empty and dry the area. Clean out any of the first repair materials. Cover with a high-quality packing tape if you have a glossy surface, or some silicone if it is textured. Seal it good, but realize this is just for troubleshooting and not a fix. Fill the tub and see if she still leaks.
Now, if this tub is not fiberglass-backed, then the crack is most likely leaking. I would put an epoxy fiberglass patch on the back, and then use and acrylic surface patch on the inside to seal it up.
8-)
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Thanks for the reply and the tips. I have gone under the hot tub, and peeled off some of the sprayed on insulation. I am pretty sure that I can see the water coming through the shell.
How do I know if I have a fiberglass backing? The tub is the Alexa model, made by Outback. I think it is a lower end brand made by Hot Springs?
Finally, if I follow your suggestion and do a temporary repair with silicone caulk (it is a textured surface), how will I be able to get the silicone caulk out later to do the real repair? Won't that be difficult?
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Do not use caulk. Use 100% silicone. It is sold here as tub and tile sealant, or even adhesive.
Caulk will wash right out as soon as you fill the tub, so don't use any product with the word caulk on the label.
If you have a dealer who sells that brand, I would ask them about the construction of the tub. If it is made by HotSpring, it is not a name I am familiar with - they don't sell those here in the US.
If you peeled off insulation and saw a smooth surface, it is most likely not fiberglass.
8-)
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(http://www.swimmingpool.com/hotproducts/img/alexa.jpg)
Is this your tub?
8-)
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Yes, that is my tub! However, mine is not solid blue -- it is king of blue/grey speckled, not a smooth finish.
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Well, first, if this is an acrylic shell backed with fiberglass, then the crack should not be leaking. What most folk don't realize is that the acrylic shell in their fiberglass-backed spa is often quite permeable, and the fiberglass is what holds the water.
Actually, acrylic is non-porous. One of the big advantages (in baths, spas, and kitchen couters) is the resistance to the development of mold and mildew. This is also why it is impossible for bacteria to form within the material (acrylic layer).
For more info:
http://www.aristechacrylics.com/spas/
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Actually, acrylic is non-porous, but only in it's original manufactured form, of a flat sheet. Once it's heated, then vacuum formed into a mold, it becomes porous. QUITE porous.
As for the impossibility for bacteria to grow, this is also untrue. Small scratches can harbor bacteria and the scratches can be too small for sanitizer to enter to kill the bacteria (of course once the bacteria exits the scratch it get killed). This has all been proven by scientific testing done on a wide variety of cutting boards and published in the early 90's in SClENCE NEWS.
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Could you please provide link(s) supporting that information?
I'd love a chance to study it more in-depth.
Thanks in advance.
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Sorry, no got no more. Actually, I'm not even sure it was ever online. Early 90's? Online?
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Does that mean you are unable to provide documented third party support for your claims?
I just went back to Aristech's site - the non-porous claim applies to cast acrylics (i.e. spas).
If there is a lack of support for the claim that acrylic is permeable, it looks to me like Aristech would be the authority on the issue.
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hi
where are you located, maybe i will be helpfull i gott some experience on acrilic repair let me know
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There are several places to get a repair kit but first you have to address the crack. If you could take pictures of it and post them or email me with them I can help more.
I'm currently writing a article on this so it's a good time for me to walk through it.
1. drill stop the crack on both ends with a small drill bit
2. if you can get to the back of the shell (even if you have to dig foam and move frame pieces) you need to get a fiberglass repair kit from Lowes or home depot and do a strength patch on the back of the shell
3. use a dremmel tool to grind the crack into a "V" that you can fill and then begin your fill process. If this is only acrylic without fiberglass backing you only need to use one material, if it has backing you might need to use a filler.
here are some links to acrylic repair products....
http://www.acrylicrepair.com/
http://www.multitechproducts.com/main.php
I use the Multi Tech and it works well but all of this takes some skill, you might want to contact a bath repair place to do it unless you have some art skill about you.
There is a lot more to this including texturing and the surface finish however I will go over that only if you are looking to do it yourself.
Bottom line is it really depends on how far you want to go and how good you want it to look. If you don't care about the crack showing than your options increase quite a bit.
If you do this yourself you will want to buy a solvent from Home Depot call MEK to do the clean up and texturing but be sure to wear gloves and mask. This is known to cause cancer and I'm not so sure it didn't have something to do with my getting Kidney cancer this last year.
Finally you might research this a bit more, if it is truly a Watkins product you might be able to call them and see if they can help with it.
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Does that mean you are unable to provide documented third party support for your claims?
Early 90's SClENCE NEWS magazine published the study. I believe it was 1993...... I don't believe it is or was ever online, someone sent me a photocopy of the article years ago. Go dig it up if you want. I don't have the need or desire to ;)
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I will vouch for the fact that acrylic, in the finished form of a hot tub is porous. Ask any repairman who has dealt with 'cobalting,' or 'blisters,' or other problems in the surface of a tub.
The plastic sheet, as it ships from the plastic maker, is very non-porous, but that ends with the stretching and forming in the vacuum mold machine.
8-)
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Contacted Aristech last week - would have posted sooner but have been in the field and out of state.
My e-mail:
Hello,
I run a service and install department at a Bullfrog Spas dealership in Montana. I also spend time (when I can), researching and writing in online spa forums.
During a recent discussion, there was a claim made that once an acrylic shell is heated and vacuum formed from its original sheet, it becomes very porous/permeable. A further statement was made that, because of this, the fiberglass layer actually holds the water (as opposed to the acrylic layer).
I have been attempting to research this myself, to little avail. If at all possible, I would greatly appreciate if someone at Aristech could e-mail a response back to me. No great explanation necessary, would just like to confirm or deny.
Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Michael
The response:
Dear Michael,
The claim made below is absolutely false. The fiberglass is used to rigidize and strengthen the acrylic shell. In fact, if you cut a cross section of a fiberglassed acrylic shell you will find porosity in the fiberglass where air gets trapped between the layers as the fiberglass is sprayed and rolled. Therefore, the acrylic shell is a nonporous material. Please let me know if I can help you with any other questions or concerns.
Best regards,
Todd Whitney
Global Acrylics Market Manager
Aristech Acrylics,LLC
7350 Empire Drive
Florence, KY 41042
Not trying to ruffle feathers, I just have a thing about accurate technical data.
I have seen enough cross sections (various fiberglass and others) to back up Mr. Whitney's statements.
I think we're headed for BADH - ;) ;D
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Popcorn anyone? ;)
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OK. I guess I stand corrected. All of those tubs I have seen with obvious porosity and leaks must have been non-porous. I have been wrong before. Of course, these would be older tubs going to the landfill, or tubs I have been called in to repair over the past twenty-plus years - from any number of tub makers. The problem had to be something else then.
I am always ready to learn new things. I would, however, like to ask how many of the over 100 manufacturer's production lines this gentleman has inspected? I have no trouble agreeing that in sheet form the product is non-porous exactly as he says. If the tub is built correctly, I'm sure the sheet could still be perfectly water tight. I also agree that the fiberglass can be porous due to air entrapment. Sometimes I do repairs with thickened epoxy resins and I lay them up too thick. The heat generated makes them boil, and they become riddled with air bubbles.
I would be very impressed if he actually will vouch for every tub maker that they do not under any circumstances exceed the elastic or plastic limits of the product as they form it? Will he vouch that the temperature of the ovens is not only correct, but perfectly even, and if it has designed-in variations in heating that those variations are perfect for the mold in use?
I guess I don't see the big deal - he says his product is non-porous, I say I have seen tubs with porosity. There are a boatload of possible variables and even changes between the sheet as it goes out the door of the plastic plant and when I see it as a repairman, in use. I think we can both be right.
8-)
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I would be very impressed if he actually will vouch for every tub maker that they do not under any circumstances exceed the elastic or plastic limits of the product as they form it? Will he vouch that the temperature of the ovens is not only correct, but perfectly even, and if it has designed-in variations in heating that those variations are perfect for the mold in use?
That's a great point - I feel a bit silly for overlooking that.
There are a boatload of possible variables and even changes between the sheet as it goes out the door of the plastic plant and when I see it as a repairman, in use. I think we can both be right.
8-)
Agreed. Ultimately, it can go either way, depending on the variables.
:)
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I'm really thrilled that someone proved Chas wrong ;) ;D ;D 8-).....but, can we get back on subject.
What's going on with the Crack?
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When we worked for a spas manufacture, the sheets of acrylic (lucite) had to be stored where there was no humidity per instruction of lucite. We were told they would absorb moisture and when put into the ovens, it would raise he**. This was before they went in the oven....very interesting.....
There is a stuff called pool fis that will fix up to a 1/4 inch hole or crack. It works really well.
Is the crack somewher that when you add water/weight it is going to cause it to spread open, ie the footwell?
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Hi, OP here. My crack is fixed. The crack was located on one of the seats, just where it starts to go vertical and run down into the footwell. From under the tub, I peeled away the insulation and could see the water coming through. There is a two-by-four brace under the seat, and when the tub is empty I can see about 1/8 inch gap between the shell and the 2x4. So I assume it wasn't supported properly. I hammered a shim into the gap.
For the crack, I called a company called Surface Specialists. They are a franchise, and have an office in St. Louis. They were recommended to me by several others, including Prestige Pools and Henry Plumbing. The basically followed the method above -- drilled holes, used a dremel tool, and added some type of acrylic repair compound. It looks great! Best of all, it hasn't leaked again. You need to search hard to find the crack.
I'd recommend these guys, you can find them on the Web.
They charged $177 for a one hour appointment. Seemed pretty high to me. Prestige Pools, who sold me the tub, gave me a $100 gift certificate to their store to help cover it -- since I also have a pool, I'll use this for chemicals, pool toys, etc.
So, a happy ending, but I'm down $77.
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100% clear silicone will work pretty good but it will get yellow or cloudy and start to come apart over time from the chemicals and the heat of the water. I would suggest fiberglass resin, it cures fairly quicky and you can use a flexible soft plastic squeegee to force it into the crack. let it cure, then do it one more time.
You can get fiberglass resin at any auto parts store or home improvement center. I've used for many fixes in the past.
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Hi,
I asked them why they names their spas "Outback Spas", they replied that it is because most dealers kept them "OUTBACK"
LOL!! ;D ;D ;D
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When I had a crack in my fiberglass shell I used a shell repair kit that worked very well. It has been a year now and still no leaks :D It is very important that when you go to use a repair kit that you make sure that you clean the area and be sure that the area is also dry.