Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Hillbilly Hot Tub on July 12, 2008, 01:12:34 pm
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Well I have started my adventures with the All Natural Treatment by the Natural Hot Tub Company.
I have done the spa Penetrating Cleanser. I am draining the spa today while here at work and will refill when i get home. The spa is sqeaky clean, granted it is only 3 months old, but I was having issues with foam. When I added the cleaner it made a goo foam, but that soon went away. This stuff is not foamy at all like the swirl away or jet clean. I pulled all the jets and a few had some white residue that was making them a bit hard to turn(an issue I am trying to get Brillance to figure out what it is, seems to be a risidual salt byproduct) the cleanser got them freed up and clean again.
I am draining right on my lawn as this is part of their advertising that all is safe. I soaked and cleaned the filters with their filter soak which is also safe to just dump on the lawn.
Tonight when tub is up to 90, I will add the water treatment and dichlor as the directions say. If you follow their directions, you only need dichlor 1x per week, but in talking with them I will need to add it more often. They suggest adding a small amount when you are done soaking, then leave the jets on full for at least 10 mins. with the cover open to gas it off, leaving you a virtually chlorine free tub.
I hate the idea of having to go back out to the tub to shut the cover after 10 mins. or so, specially in the winter, we will see if it is worth it.
I will keep all posted on my adventure. please if anyone else uses this seeweed based product, let me know.
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Is this the stuff that Doc sells on his web site? I know you're a spa retailer but if it is, some people there have had good results.
A question to you though - if you adding small amounts, I would assume you are talking 1 PPM why do you have to leave the cover off for 10 minutes? Typically dichlor users tend to only leave the cover open when they shock and we add 3 PPM as a normal dose.
What info I've gotten from enzyme companies is that chlorine and enzymes seem to be counter productive ... enzymes will be eaten by the chlorine you've added so as you add chlorine the enzymes become less. Less enzymes means less effectiveness which causes to either add more enzymes or more chlorine.
I sometimes wonder if adding the enzymes is like adding good bacteria to a fishtank - you want to establish aerobic bacteria in a fishtank to outnumber anarobic which would be devistating. The more colonies of aerobic you have the better the fish will flourish.
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Is this the stuff that Doc sells on his web site?
Vaguely similar, but no. As I understand it the All Natural Treatment by the Natural Hot Tub Company is the original formula, while what we offer, "The Natural", is a reformulated, improved version with the same basic ingredients. I should note, NEITHER are EPA approved sanitizers.
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Vaguely similar, but no. As I understand it the All Natural Treatment by the Natural Hot Tub Company is the original formula, while what we offer, "The Natural", is a reformulated, improved version with the same basic ingredients. I should note, NEITHER are EPA approved sanitizers.
I had some communication with the Eco One people when I first got my spa and they claimed to be the original as well.
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;D I'm rather confidant that I've been selling the stuff we have for longer than Eco One has been around.
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.I should note, NEITHER are EPA approved sanitizers.
They did say they are not EPA approved, thats why the dichlor. He told me to leave the cover open to gas off the dichlor which would make it an "all natural system". I have my reservations about using dichlor each use, may as well just use dichlor, but we will see.
I was told that the dichlor does not eat the enzyme by this company and eco one. Not sure if it is true or not. So far it has a really nice fresh smell, no chlorine smell at all. First night I had a white scum line even though I made sure to be thourghly clean, but it went away. I have a 540 gallon spa and I am only adding about 3/4 ounce of dichlor after use....
Time will tell......
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He told me to leave the cover open to gas off the dichlor which would make it an "all natural system". I have my reservations about using dichlor each use, may as well just use dichlor, but we will see.
You took the words right out of my fingers.
8-)
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We were big users of an enzyme system but we always told our customers to wait 6 hours after the addition of the enzymes before adding chlorine. Chlorine will kill anything including enzymes.
Leaving the cover open is only required when shocking and not just adding small amounts of dichlor. There is no offgasing when just adding a small amount.
I'm confused though how this can be called an "all natural system" when dichlor is in the mix? :-? I wouldn't suggest NOT using dichlor but I wouldn't suggest it is all natural either! ;)
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Chlorine is in the table of elements, therefore"natural" (so is Bromine!)
I am going to try to use the least amount of dichlor as I can get away with without having soup and see what happens. They call this stuff water treatment and directions say to shock weekly or as needed. They suggest dichlor because it is environmentally friendly due to it dissipating quickly in hot water and it is also a risdual sanitizer.
I guess I am a bit on the wary side.....the tub does smell nice, I do not notice a difference in the feel of my skin after soaking, but $34.95 is a lot of money unless it does wonders. I still like N2 with the low chlorine recipe as a "natural" choice.
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Well, I have cut the chlorine down to about a half of teaspoon after use for 2 nights. Still clear and smells nice. My risdual is at .5 the next day, plus I have 24 hour ozone. The PH has stayed constant at 7.8 so far. Hard to get used to that being ok since this system runs normal 7.8-8.4. 7.8 I can deal with...8.4 I may get a bit worried.
Time will tell, and next months 10 vacation will be intersting to see what happens to it!
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Well, I have found I can not keep the chlorine level as low now that a little more time has passed. I have to use the recommed amounts that I would need if I was using just chlorine, but if i do the chlorine when exiting the tub there is little to no chlorine smell the next night. The water has stayed clean, no spa ring and the PH stays at a soilid 7.8-7.9.
So at this point I have not had to adjust the PH or add anything but the dichlor. Water is great, does not seem to be drying to the skin like straight dichlor at this point.
No one else that has had experience with this or other"seaweed" based systems. What do I have to expect further down the road?
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Week 2 of this system.....Have been having to use more dichlor to keep a reading. Super shocked 2 days ago, was ok for a day, now my total chlorine is high and free chlorine low...have to super shock again. Right now strong smell of chlorine....debating if I will shock with MPS although they don't suggest this because the inhert ingreidients in MPS are not all natural......
Ph has been ok except the last 2 days, it is falling lower. Maybe because my tub needs a shock.
Water is still crystal clear with no foam...
As we go on it will be coming down to....Is it worth the cost....are we saving that much in clarifiers/ph adjusters and foam down?
Will update again next week....Still looking for other users exsperiences....
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Week 2 of this system.....Have been having to use more dichlor to keep a reading. Super shocked 2 days ago, was ok for a day, now my total chlorine is high and free chlorine low...have to super shock again. Right now strong smell of chlorine....debating if I will shock with MPS although they don't suggest this because the inhert ingreidients in MPS are not all natural......
Ph has been ok except the last 2 days, it is falling lower. Maybe because my tub needs a shock.
Water is still crystal clear with no foam...
As we go on it will be coming down to....Is it worth the cost....are we saving that much in clarifiers/ph adjusters and foam down?
Will update again next week....Still looking for other users exsperiences....
Hillbilly,
I know you guys are professionals in the spa business but I have to say as a consumer - it doesn't seem worth it.
If you're adding as much chlorine as you did, what's the point. You said you super shocked - what was the combined chlorine reading when you shocked? If you didn't get that 10x more free chlorine than combined then you just added to the problem. If you did and you have a high combined chlorine ... I'll give you one guess how it got that high.
I know you're new here and I don't know if you're familiar with the Vermonter method but most of us who use chlorine use his method. A few of us are using bleach and at least for my experiment so far it has worked OK. Even shocked with it and my tub is OK with it's water chemistry and I'm not adding any stabilizer.
I can appeciate the idea of experimenting, the people here can tell you I have done some experimenting with my tub and if that's all it is - I think you may prove (or is it disprove) how good those enzymes really work ... at least for you. During my experiments I have found that ozone is no big deal and that N2 or the Frog isn't either - for my water.
Keep us informed!
Vinny
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I experiment because I will not sell something in my store unless I can say it works. I am farmilar with the Vermonter method, its on another forum, but I can't honestly push that method. For 1, it will void the warrenties of the tubs we sell amd 2, the newer tubs with many jets raise the PH way to much to deal with all the time.
I have to disagree also with your opinion of N2, I love that system overall. I only had to add chlorine once a week, MPS after each use, Sea Klear natural clarifier and I never had an issue. I also like Brillance chlorine free bromine system, no bad bromine smell like traditional bromine.
Now the next week of the natural. I got it figured out that I was not using enough dichlor to oxidize all the wastes causing me to have the chlorine smell and having to super shock (yes it was at least 10x more). Being that I feel this is very costly to be adding this much dichlor, I decided to use MPS to shock with. Although they do not suggest MPS because it has inhert ingreidients that will make the water no"pure" when I dump it, they said it could be used. Doing this has decreased how much dichlor I have to add and I have no chlorine smell. PH is staying at 7.8 without any adjustments, water is still clear and no foam at all.
I leave for 2 weeks of vacation next week, so that will be the test. They told me to shock before I go, making sure the chlorine level is at 5 when we leave. We will see.
They cost for this system has been high, and I am not a big chlorine fan, so I am not big on that aspect. If I did not start using MPS to shock, my CYA would have been sky high and about due to dump the tub. No way would I have got 3 months from this water, since the MPS it has required less chlorine.
It does not seem to dry my skin anymore than I all ready have, but it is not helping it noticably either. No signs of itch, but I never had an issue with itching at any other time except if the PH was off. Have a couple of jets that are turning on/off hard. I have to pull them out during the day to see why. I worry where the PH tends to be on the higher side with this system.
Still no one else out there that has used this system over time that can chime in to likes and dislikes???
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Also, I forgot to add, I asked how the enzymes did not die with the chlorine and ozone. I was told that their enzymes are not living like other companies, so they can't die like the others. I then asked how "dead" enzymes "eat" up the goo and I was told it was a trade secret of a secret mixture of enzymes.
I was never told how this scientifically worked. At this point for all I know, it may be a glorified clarifier and PH buffer!
I was a bit angry that they could not exsplain how dead critters eat, at least in laymans terms. I did not want thair recipe!
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There's something not right and it may be with me.
How is using the Vermonter's method voiding any warranty? Are you sure you're not confusing the Vermonter method with the bleach method? If you add chlorine before or after use what's the difference with the tub manufacturer - you're using chlorine! You have not stopped using chlorine so it can't be the chlorine. Adding chlorine after only affects the possible safety of the tub's users as there will be no chlorine when soaking.
I believe aeration causes the PH to drop not raise. I have read that the reasons PH goes down in most tubs is because 1) the acidic affect of dichlor (won't go into it unless pushed - I barely understand it to get too deep) and 2) the aeration of the jets. My water has always dropped in PH during the 3 years of use, since I've been using bleach it has remained about the same ~ 7.6 to 7.8.
Adding MPS will raise your TDS faster then dichlor but will not raise your CYA as you said. CYA of 300 which most of us deal with depending on use is still killing bacteria. People have used MPS daily and chlorine weekly without anything extra except the N2, the only problem I can see is that your not killing bacteria with the MPS and you do with chlorine. I can't say why N2 or the Frog doesn't work well but in my water but it doesn't, getting an extra clear day using them just isn't worth it IMO. Your using chlorine and clarifier weekly seems a little extreme since these things shouldn't be needed if the product is doing it's job IMO.
As far as "killing" the enzymes - they are right they aren't alive but neither is dirt, soap and body oils. These all get "eaten" by chlorine and MPS so I would imagine as either is introduced to the tub the enzymes are being neutralized. Considering they didn't or couldn't explain should raise a red flag.
If it works for the two week vacation then it may be the thing to add when you do go on vacation and that's it.
It's nice to see that as a dealer you're not blindly listening to whatever a company tells you!
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Also, I forgot to add, I asked how the enzymes did not die with the chlorine and ozone. I was told that their enzymes are not living like other companies, so they can't die like the others. I then asked how "dead" enzymes "eat" up the goo and I was told it was a trade secret of a secret mixture of enzymes.
I was never told how this scientifically worked. At this point for all I know, it may be a glorified clarifier and PH buffer!
I was a bit angry that they could not exsplain how dead critters eat, at least in laymans terms. I did not want thair recipe!
It is always a red flag to me when a company will not explain what is in their system or how it works.
I would have to wonder about Poison Control and an MSDS if they do not supply their "secret ingredient".
Otherwise, it has been interesting reading about Hillbilly's experiment. But, I do wonder,...
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Sorry Vinny, I'm the one not right...it is the bleach method I was talking about, I will have to go back and read the vermonter method again, its been a long summer....need my vacation....thought I smelled the ocean last night and we are 2 hours away from it!!
What I have been taught is PH will rise with airation/ozone/multi jets. I am sure the different chemicals all play a different role, again, I was on the bleach method of thought.
Manufacutres will void warrenties if you use chlorine that is anything other than dichlor, if they find out. The Ph of some chlorine is very high, others very low, so they are trying to prevent people from damageing the tub with the wrong type of chlorine, plus some have added stuff like calcium..But this is all an ongoing saga, specially in another forum. My opinion is, if it works for you, no bad side effects than go with it!
wewanna....the website is www.thenaturalhottubco.com I cant find the MSDS or a true exsplanation there either.
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Well we are back from vacation, had a mishap while we were gone.....
We left the tub as we were told, bring the chlorine level up to 5. 5 days into our vacation we got a phone call, checked on tub and a fuse had blown, no filtering, no ozone, no heat, tub was at 85 degrees Our son has not been taught how to change these yet so we had him shut off the breaker and we would deal with it when we got home.
On arrival home 7 days later I thought I would open the cover and have bad smells and gooey water. To my suprise the water was crystal clear, PH was at 7.7 and chlorine reading was at 2 still. Replaced the fuse, shocked it to be safe and off to the races. The water was great that night.
So, I will have to give credit there, I really thought I would have a soupy mess and did not, even with the tub shut down. Still no real complaints, just weighing the cost factor, i guess I am still a bit of a N2 fan at heart.
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This is similar to what I'm trying. It's called the pebble system. I don't know if its been covered before. It's simple. I drop 2 quarter size river rocks into the spa and let them settle to the bottom. That's it. I've been doing that for a month and my water is clear and tests are great. All I have to do now is every once in awhile, like once a day, add some di-chlr, along with the nature 2 cartridge that is always present, the river rocks make the hot tub practically maintenance free. ;)
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I've always advised, if there's absolutely no possibility of freezing, simply shut off the spa. If the spa is covered, and the water is still, nothing is getting mixed into the water that will start growing. I've seen spas that are shut off for a few months, that only take a little chlorine to get back up and running.
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I will have to disagree a bit, There is always stuff in the spa, if the sanitizer level drops, it will start growing. The filters are a prime breeding ground. You dont save enough money to shut it down just to heat it all back up again IMO.
If the sanitizer level stays up, you should be safe. I was worried my sanitizer level would get chewed up quickly from stuff growing in the filters etc.
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And I must disagree even more :-). If you shock the spa, there shouldn't be anything "living" to start growing, until it get's mixed into , or introduced into the water. Any churning of the water, or air being introduced through the jets will add "living organisms" into the water more quickly than letting the water "stand still". Additionally, moving the water will cause it to aerate more, becoming more oxygenated, allowing more to grow. While the filter CREATES a huge demand on sanitizer, it's more for oxidizing dead matter that's trapped there.
I will have to disagree a bit, There is always stuff in the spa, if the sanitizer level drops, it will start growing. The filters are a prime breeding ground. You dont save enough money to shut it down just to heat it all back up again IMO.
If the sanitizer level stays up, you should be safe. I was worried my sanitizer level would get chewed up quickly from stuff growing in the filters etc.
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Its a safe bet that just about any spa with a good cover would do as yours did while on vacation - that is: chlorine shock it before you go and shut it down.
I have had plenty of my own, and my customer's tubs do this.
The chlorine is more stable once the water temp drops. Seventy or so would be better, but still, eighty is much better than 101 or 102.
And, as Doc said, with no movement, other than whatever currents may occur as the water cools, and no outside influence, the water should stay fine for a couple of weeks easy.
I did a very careful trial of a natural enzyme based product several years ago. I found the one and only difference was that the tub smelled lightly of Coconut, and our skin felt softer getting out. We could do that with a fragrance. In fact, we do.
8-)
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Doc said months, not a week or 2. If there is no chlorine residual, stuff will grow. For just a couple of weeks the cost to heat it back up outweighs what was saved by not runiing, or very close to it.
This system does not have coconut, I am farmilar with the one you are talking about and I did not have good luck with that one.
The advantage so far with this one is no clarifiers being used (and I am a Sea Klear lover!), no foam down, lower risdual of chlorine. PH has being staying in line with ALK, although it is a bit higher than I am used to running. No scum lines and filters rinse out very easy. I have not noticed softer skin, although there is lanolin in this. I have terribly dry skin to begin with.
Disadvantage is cost, does it outweigh the benifits...
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For just a couple of weeks the cost to heat it back up outweighs what was saved by not runiing, or very close to it.
I'm sorry, but this is completely untrue. Newtons basic law of cooling should be evidence enough. In addition, much less will "grow" in water with a lower temperature. And as I've said before, and I'll say it again, I've seen a number of tub that were simply shut off for MONTHS, and with little effort the water can be saved.
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I'm sorry, but this is completely untrue. Newtons basic law of cooling should be evidence enough. In addition, much less will "grow" in water with a lower temperature. And as I've said before, and I'll say it again, I've seen a number of tub that were simply shut off for MONTHS, and with little effort the water can be saved.
Doc is correct! I have done it many of times.
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And I have seen a number that look like swamps. Yes cooler water grows less germs, but grows germs never less. As a legitimate insured buisness that personally knows and cares for my customers, I would never suggest my customers to get into a tub that has not been sanitized for months, then shocked.
Its an ongoing battle to what it saves turning a tub down for a short time, I go by what my father who has 50 years with the electric company tells me and my own tests of shutting the tub down for that. Others may be right, or have different opinions on this forum also, so I am done arguing that mute point, this thread was about an enzyme product I was trying not how can we save old nasty water.