Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stones81 on May 26, 2008, 02:47:47 pm
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I got it narrowed down to the HotSprings Vanguard :-/ and the Jacuzzi J-365. I haven't been able to wet test the J-365 yet, but I'm trying to get the local dealer to fill it up. I have a few questions for the forum though:
1. Which one is insulated better?
2. Which one is more energy efficient?
3. Which tub has a better warranty?
4. Which company has a better service reputation?
5. Lastly, what would be a fair price for each including steps and a lifter? I'm trying to get an avg. based on prices around the USA.
Thanks guys! Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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This ought to be fun!! ;)
1. Vanguard
2. Vanguard
3. Vanguard
4. Hotspring
5. In my area = $8995
But in all seriousness they are both fantastic tubs. Wet testing is really the only way to know what spa you want to buy. That way YOU know what YOU like and what feels good to YOU and really thats all that matters when buying a spa.
There may be a lot of bickering in this thread because its a loaded topic and each of us will respectably tell you all about our spas and what features make them great, but it's really about what you like the most.
So with that said....let the games begin! :)
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This ought to be fun!! ;)
I have my popcorn, time for the show.
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This ought to be fun!! ;)
1. Vanguard
2. Vanguard
3. Vanguard
4. Hotspring
5. In my area = $8995
But in all seriousness they are both fantastic tubs. Wet testing is really the only way to know what spa you want to buy. That way YOU know what YOU like and what feels good to YOU and really thats all that matters when buying a spa.
There may be a lot of bickering in this thread because its a loaded topic and each of us will respectably tell you all about our spas and what features make them great, but it's really about what you like the most.
So with that said....let the games begin! :)
Merlin is a Knowledgeable, Friendly, Helpful and Award Winning Hotspring & Caldera Dealer in Southern California
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Yes, and your point is?
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Yes, and your point is?
Geez, My Point is: Merlin is a Knowledgeable, Friendly, Helpful and Award Winning Hotspring & Caldera Dealer in Southern California. What other point is there?
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Picking between the Hot Springs Vanguard and the Jacuzzi J-365 is like picking between a Lincoln and a Cadillac. You can't go wrong with either one. Like Merlin said wet test and which ever feels best, take it home and enjoy. My disclaimer at the bottom of my post is that I own a Jacuzzi J-470 and love it. IMHO you have picked two of the top lines on the market and you can't go wrong when you stay with the major quality lines. A J-365 goes for about $7800 in my area before taxes.
Scott :)
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For what it is worth, Hot Spring published third party testing for energy use of the Sovereign. The Vanguard would be about the same.
All Hot Spring Spas are California Energy Commission certified as performing at acceptable levels for energy consumption in "stand by" mode. Last I checked Jacuzzi is not.
However, wet test. Check out your dealers. Buy from who you are comfortable with; you will be doing business with them as long as the spa is under warranty.
I believe the prices Merlin and Swell Tub mentioned are fairly typical. Jacuzzi Jim could check in here regarding Jacuzzi pricing.
Bottom line, you will love either one!
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Geez, My Point is: Merlin is a Knowledgeable, Friendly, Helpful and Award Winning Hotspring & Caldera Dealer in Southern California. What other point is there?
;)
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since the tubs are pretty much equal
it may come down to which dealer you feel will be there for you if you need them
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since the tubs are pretty much equal
it may come down to which dealer you feel will be there for you if you need them
With two good options to choose from concentrate on the dealer, the price( /package deal) and the wet test.
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Not to spice this thread up or anything but a good dealer is a very important point. Many dealers don't service what they sell in my area. Only Hot Springs and Sundance had a service department in my area. I think the reason Hot Springs has it's own service department here in Las Vegas is because it takes so many technicians to repair the Hot Springs Spa on the strip that the bikini models sit in all day. You know what I mean, the first tech gets on site and figures out that some long hair is stuck in the filter and he calls for backup who forgets his tools. Then he calls the next guy to bring the tools and he forgets the chemicals. Before it's over you have as many technicians as there is models ;D. I kid, I kid. Even Artesian which is manufactured in Las Vegas where I live has another spa service take care of warranty and service issues.
So while a dealer is the one to go to bat for you and is very important during and after the sell. I would also recommend you find a great spa repair service who has an arrangement with your dealer not to charge you service calls on warranty issues. I'm told that most warranty related issues are taken care of in the first 30 - 90 days, after that it is smooth sailing if you buy a quality brand. Since I'm new to the spa scene I don't know if this statement is true or not. My Jacuzzi dealer has an arrangement with a local spa service and all warranty related trips to my house are free for the first year. With some other brands all visits were $65 - $80 even on warranty.
Another thing to consider it that Hot Springs is Watkins premier line. Jacuzzi has 100, 200, 300. and 400 series lines. With Jacuzzi the 400 series would be comparable to the Hot Springs in features. The Jacuzzi J-365 is a fantastic tub but if you are comparing it to a Hot Springs you might be comparing Apples to Oranges. IMHO of course. OK it might be time to grab the popcorn.
Scott :)
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Let me start by saying both are very nice spa's, and you would be happy with either!!
Looking at the specs sheet feature for feature there are differences.
Vangaurd 7"3 X 7'3 X 36" J-365 7'6 X 7' X 38"
32 jets 32 jets
circ pump yes circ pump yes
water features squirting water water fall with colored lights looks nice
2, 1.65 continuous pumps 2, 2.5 continuous pumps 1 is a 2 speed for more variation
150 sq ft filtration (no by-pass) 120 sq filtration with debris trap (no one has one) only 1 pmp is by pass 1
is dedicated to the circ pmp both do a
great job it really comes down to how well you maintain your chemicals.
colored lights yes yes lighted water fall and low beverage light indicators
Shell color option HS 4 Jacuzzi 9
stereo yes yes
controls reach over side (one remote on top) mounted on top for easy access
ABS pan (base) no yes 6" no wood rot or infestation
Foot jets, 2 not well placed (IMO)4 calf Foot jets yes 5 with 4 calf jets
Warranty 7 years shell/surface Jacuzzi 10 year
plumbing 5 5
component 5 5
stereo 1 2
heater 5 year no fault 5 year its never your fault least in the 6 yrs we have been doing it, its
always electrical if anything not chemical or other.
I don't know, each one is very nice spa in its own way, prices will vary. In this area J-365 8495.00 Vangaurd prolly around 9000+
Like everyone said wet test and let your body decide, but when you look at the features the J-365 has to offer, its hard to beat.
Insulation wise and power consumption should be pretty close to the same doubt any consumer could tell the difference in real world everyday use.
Overall let your body decide which you like better, and which one fits your needs comfort wise and how many people you can fit in it, if that matters also as mentioned, make sure the dealer is good, get references if any doubt.
See that wasn't so bad yet!! ;D No need for popcorn yet. :'( Lets keep the replies civil, I will! :)
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1. Number of jets on Vanguard is 32...not 22
2. Control panel...there is one on the front of the spa and another inside the spa for ease of use
3. Foot Jets...the Vanguard has 2 large JetStream Jets as well as 4 Precision Jets for the calves
:)Term
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Amazing what I can see when I put my readers on!!! :o Revised 5/27/08
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Amazing what I can see when I put my readers on!!!
Between having too many cold ones and losing your eye glasses, I'm suprised you can even get the computer turned on. ;)
Stones 81 (did you see the stones in '81?) they're both popular tubs, PErsonaly, I find myself gravatiating towards the Hotsprings, but wet test for yourself and decide.
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Yes, and your point is?
It's not like he was suggesting bias 'er anything... ;)
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I didn't see the Stones in 81' but I did see them in 89',94',97', 02', 05', 06' and 07'
Does anyone know if HotSpring is the "#1 sales leader" in hottubs or if this is just a marketing ploy? Can you really "not find a more energy efficient spa?" or does that just mean that they are equal to their competitors?
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As far as the #1 sales leader, thats always debatable. As far as energy efficient, they are comparable to the other top spa's. Like I mentioned before I doubt any consumer could tell the difference in everyday use.
In a environmentally controlled space who knows depends on a lot of things. I am sure the hs boys will have something else to say as well.
Both Jacuzzi and Hot spring spa's are nice. You set up a wet test yet? Curious where you live?
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I didn't see the Stones in 81' but I did see them in 89',94',97', 02', 05', 06' and 07'
Does anyone know if HotSpring is the "#1 sales leader" in hottubs or if this is just a marketing ploy? Can you really "not find a more energy efficient spa?" or does that just mean that they are equal to their competitors?
Who are you? You know this question is loaded and going to start some excitement. I for one are not biting on this one......
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Like I mentioned before I doubt any consumer could tell the difference in everyday use.
If the consumer was comparing a few of the best insulated ones then I'd agree. Otherwise there can be very noticeable difference. IMO you can say either Hot Spring or Jacuzzi will do well relative to energy efficiency but if you're also looking at say a Master I’d expect a big drop off in that regard.
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True!!
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NJ
A HS dealer told me that Jacuzzi's use more electricity. Probably a sales ploy...
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I didn't see the Stones in 81' but I did see them in 89',94',97', 02', 05', 06' and 07'
Does anyone know if HotSpring is the "#1 sales leader" in hottubs or if this is just a marketing ploy? Can you really "not find a more energy efficient spa?" or does that just mean that they are equal to their competitors?
I will bite since I dont sell em. I have been doing my homework on what tub to buy for the last few months. Lurking and posting here. I like Hot Spring and Jacuzzi, as well as a few others. I have not heard anyone dispute that HotSpring is the #1 sales leader in the industry. 800,00+ units. Jacuzzi has no reference to how many tubs they have sold on their site.
Energy Efficient. Near and dear to my heart in the auto industry. Lucky for me, I dont sell to people that worry about $4.00 per gallon for Gas. In my research I have found several articles on the HotSpring Site that seem to confirm that they are very if not the most energy efficient. It looks to be a well founded claim but I am sure that there may be others that can claim to be as efficient.
Either way, I would agree with many, wet test..... WET TEST...
Pick what fits best for you.
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NJ
A HS dealer told me that Jacuzzi's use more electricity. Probably a sales ploy...
I'd say he truly believes what he is telling you but it will be argued both ways. There are brands out there where the difference would be very noticeable and other cases where there may be a difference but it is not major. As long as both are well insulated take it as a single consideration and don't make your decision based heavily on it alone.
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In my research I have found several articles on the HotSpring Site that seem to confirm that they are very if not the most energy efficient. It looks to be a well founded claim but I am sure that there may be others that can claim to be as efficient.
Either way, I would agree with many, wet test..... WET TEST...
Pick what fits best for you.
LMFAO! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's funny stuff!
Show me a manufacturer that doesn't claim that! But hey... if they wrote it on their website, they must be the very bestest! ;)
I would put hs up in the top 10 spas for sure and I'm not trying to beat them up, but rather seperate the marketing BS from fact. Everyone claims to be the best and this industry seems to overstate almost everything.
As Spatech said, the top brands are a safe bet and I wouldn't put too much emphesis on it as long as you're not buying some no-name brand or one with a poor reputation.
But see what happens when it's in print...it becomes the gospel! :D
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My Jacuzzi is so efficient that Nevada power is sending me a check for the hydro-power I am putting back into the grid. ;D
Now just because I wrote it or said it dosen't make it so.
I remember when I was looking at the Artesians with 5 pumps, the salesman told me that they used much less electricity because the 5 motors were smaller and more efficient. You only needed to run the pump that was running the seat you were in.
The Hot Springs salesman told me that their tub was safer for women. The Coast salesman told me that his company was the only risk taker in the industry and the others followed the same old design. Some salesman give the spa business a bad name. Don't trust everything they tell you....
Scott ;)
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My jacuzzi salesman told me that it had 100% filtration with no bypass....he also told me it would run when I plugged it in. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Fred
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I will bite since I dont sell em. I have been doing my homework on what tub to buy for the last few months. Lurking and posting here. I like Hot Spring and Jacuzzi, as well as a few others. I have not heard anyone dispute that HotSpring is the #1 sales leader in the industry. 800,00+ units. Jacuzzi has no reference to how many tubs they have sold on their site.
Energy Efficient. Near and dear to my heart in the auto industry. Lucky for me, I dont sell to people that worry about $4.00 per gallon for Gas. In my research I have found several articles on the HotSpring Site that seem to confirm that they are very if not the most energy efficient. It looks to be a well founded claim but I am sure that there may be others that can claim to be as efficient.
Either way, I would agree with many, wet test..... WET TEST...
Pick what fits best for you.
Here is the real deal. In this case with the 2 spas that are mentioned it may be fair to say that the HS will cost slightly less to run as it also may be fair to state that the Jacuzzi will have slightly better performance as their is a difference in the HP of the pumps but in either case energy use or power output the difference will be slight. If you take ANY of the well made spas the cost to operate will always be close within a few dollars each month. A well made spa is a well made spa and there is no magic for one to be significantly less to operate than another well made spa. As spa tech mentions low end cheap spas will cost more again no magic.... they are cheap for a reason (they're cheaply made).
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Good to see you old man! ;) Long time no chat!
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LMFAO! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's funny stuff!
Show me a manufacturer that doesn't claim that! But hey... if they wrote it on their website, they must be the very bestest! ;)
I would put hs up in the top 10 spas for sure and I'm not trying to beat them up, but rather seperate the marketing BS from fact. Everyone claims to be the best and this industry seems to overstate almost everything.
As Spatech said, the top brands are a safe bet and I wouldn't put too much emphesis on it as long as you're not buying some no-name brand or one with a poor reputation.
But see what happens when it's in print...it becomes the gospel! :D
Well, I guess anyone can say anything, that is true. But they actually have independent studies to back the claims up, that is more than most can say.
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy_testing.html
I dont own one yet, but I can say that I do my research, if someone makes a claim I will go check it out.
Again, either way, you shold wet test, find the tub that fits you best, and make sure you feel good about the dealer. After all, they will be taking care of you for years to come.
In my experience, the dealer can make all of the difference in your ownership experience. We will have a customer bring in their vehicle, and we will have them in a loaner and on their way quickly. We evaluate the vehicle, and the service manager calls the customer with the report. In or out of warranty we give no charge loaner cars to our customers when they come in for maintenance/repairs.
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I see testing on the The Energy Smart™ Spa – Sovereign® Spa which is 115v (1.5 KW heater) but none on the other "real" spas. ;) Was it done on any 220V spas to give a true comparison?
Why is it that the set of data @ 70 degrees (the warmest of the 3 tests) shows less KW hours than the first 2 but the highest operational cost? Am I reading it wrong? Maybe one of the HS guys can help me out here...
To give yourself an accurate number Bubba G, I would determine the cost per KWH in your area and get an estimate on a spa operating with a 4 or 5.5 KW heater (220V).
My point was that if you're basing your buying decision off of what you are reading on a manufacturers website, you'll end up with 15 spas in your backyard!! ;)
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I see testing on the The Energy Smart™ Spa – Sovereign® Spa which is 115v (1.5 KW heater) but none on the other "real" spas. ;) Was it done on any 220V spas to give a true comparison?
Why is it that the set of data @ 70 degrees (the warmest of the 3 tests) shows less KW hours than the first 2 but the highest operational cost? Am I reading it wrong? Maybe one of the HS guys can help me out here...
To give yourself an accurate number Bubba G, I would determine the cost per KWH in your area and get an estimate on a spa operating with a 4 or 5.5 KW heater (220V).
My point was that if you're basing your buying decision off of what you are reading on a manufacturers website, you'll end up with 15 spas in your backyard!! ;)
I read that too Steve and thought the same thing. I have never read it that closely. This is not a bash fest on the Watkins test. I am just curious to know why the test that was ran at the warmest temp of 70 degrees cost the most to run of any months and it used the least amount of kWh. Is that accurate??
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I see testing on the The Energy Smart™ Spa – Sovereign® Spa which is 115v (1.5 KW heater) but none on the other "real" spas. ;) Was it done on any 220V spas to give a true comparison?
Why is it that the set of data @ 70 degrees (the warmest of the 3 tests) shows less KW hours than the first 2 but the highest operational cost? Am I reading it wrong? Maybe one of the HS guys can help me out here...
;)
Why would the cost of 220v spas be statistically different? 220v heaters simply use the more KWs to heat fasterer.
To read the chart you have to look at the cost of KWHs. So a spa can use less KWHs in one community but cost more to operate due to cost of energy.
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To read the chart you have to look at the cost of KWHs. So a spa can use less KWHs in one community but cost more to operate due to cost of energy.
Thanks for the reply Dan. It says under the chart that they were all tested the same using the same cost for kWh hours. Here is exactly what it reads:
Kilowatt usage based on a 115v Sovereign spa set at 102°F used six times per week, 15 minutes with the jets on and 15 minutes with the jets off during each use. Monthly and daily costs based on 8.5 per kilowatt hour.
I agreed with what you said, but according to the chart, unless I am missing something, that is how it reads.
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Why would the cost of 220v spas be statistically different? 220v heaters simply use the more KWs to heat fasterer.
To read the chart you have to look at the cost of KWHs. So a spa can use less KWHs in one community but cost more to operate due to cost of energy.
:-? So why not perform this test on a 220V spa considering those outsell 115V dramatically? So are you saying they provided these numbers based on various costs per KWH? If so, why does it say, "Monthly and daily costs based on 8.5 per kilowatt hour"? That being said, a tub running in a warmer environment and using less KW's, should operate at a lesser cost, no? :-/
Just trying to understand it, that's all... :)
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My point was that if you're basing your buying decision off of what you are reading on a manufacturers website, you'll end up with 15 spas in your backyard!! ;)
15 Spas??? does each come with a hydro-therapy tech??? ;)
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Also if you look at a spa that runs complete 220v components like a Sundance/Jacuzzi and a Hotspring that has 220v main pmps but 110v circ??(not positive) which would use more energy? SD,jac and HS Heaters are the same at 5.5kw if I am not mistaken.
Still not meant to bash just gaining knowledge.
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My bigger concern of some of the circ pumps out there isn't the operational costs, but instead their performance. Some don't even break the surface tension of the water and filter extremely poorly (fish tank pumps I cam 'em).
Not all circ pumps are created equal! ;)
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There are 2 different charts on the Hot Spring site. I was looking at one with the different rates per KWH. http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy-efficiency.html
The other one is:
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy_testing.html
If you compare the charts, you see the explanation on the second one referring to 8.5¢ per KWH must be a typo.
I will bring to the attention of the Mothership. ;)
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on the second one referring to 8.5¢ per KWH must be a typo.
I will bring to the attention of the Mothership. ;)
HS makes typo's?? :o ;)
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HS makes typo's?? :o ;)
:D ;D ;D :D
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Energy efficiency???
My J480 has got you all beat...hands down.
First you fill it and then it heats the water up to temp. The next morning it turns off for a week.
After it turns back on you use heavily 2 to 3 weeks and it then shuts down pump 2 to conserve energy for the last week (or two) of the month. During this final week it completely turns off at noon every day because it goes through its blow out cycle and pump 2 tries to turn on but pops the breaker.
At this point you're a little disheartened so you don't use it nearly as much which also conserves energy. And when you do use it you are so mad that your body temperature rises and helps the heater which also saves energy.
I'd say that this first month we've used less energy in our brand new Jacuzzi as anyone reading this post used in their tubs. Jacuzzi wins hands down. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Fred
P.S. If I remember...during the 11:00 hour I turn the clock ahead to the 12:00 hour to pass the blow out cycle. I then set the clock back an hour later in the day and do the whole thing over again the next day. Nice heh? >:(
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P.S. If I remember...during the 11:00 hour I turn the clock ahead to the 12:00 hour to pass the blow out cycle. I then set the clock back an hour later in the day and do the whole thing over again the next day. Nice heh? >:(
Sounds like you need a Hotspring ;)
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Sounds like you need a Hotspring ;)
What? And pass up on this great energy efficiency? :o :o
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What? And pass up on this great energy efficiency? :o :o
;D you're right i must be crazy lol
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Energy efficiency???
My J480 has got you all beat...hands down.
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This was one of the wittiest posts I've ever read on this forum. ;D
Good job!
I am sorry for your troubles and disappointments and it is a shame that your dealer is such a goober. It is a letdown when something like this occurs, but it does happen to every company from time to time. I'm sure it will get straightened out very soon.
With that being said, one of my customers has had a frustrating couple of weeks with his new Limelight Flair. When we delivered the spa, I had forgotten to put the owner's manual back in it after familiarizing myself with this new product. The customer called and said that he needed the manual, I told him I would bring it by after work, he said he needed it NOW, so I closed the store and made the 1 hour drive to his house. He was happy, and it gave me a chance to stop by Daddy Sam's Bar B Que in Carthage and eat some of their larrupin' beans.
Next day, the customer calls and says that he is having a problem with some of the jets not staying in place. We immediately sent one of our techs out that afternoon and attempted to fix the problem. We were unable to, he was not happy, so we offered him a different spa, then he was happy.
We took him another Flair, got him up and running. After a few days, he called back and said there was a problem with another set of jets. I explained to him that it is a new product line and there are evidently some bugs that need to be addressed. He conveyed his understanding but also expressed his extreme disappointment in the performance of the spa he truly loves. I tell him that I will talk to my boss immediately and that I will call him back with a solution.
Boss says "Take care of the customer, whatever he wants to do."
He had been eyeing the Envoy before he became mesmerized by the visual appeal of the Limelight, so I called and said that we would upgrade him to the Envoy at NO CHARGE. He says "That'll be fine, but I LOVE the Limelight...I just want it to work right!"
So....we are taking him an Envoy to try. If after using it for a few days he would still rather have the Limelight, then we will get him another one, set it up in the store and test it a few days, and once we are satisfied with it's performance, we will once again make the change....and he won't pay one red cent more than he paid when he bought the spa. THAT is how you make customers for life.
Term
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THAT is how you make customers for life.
Term
I agree. Good management!
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Boy I'm impressed with your customer service. Thank you for sharing that some deals care. I've chatting with you all via IM about the problems I'm having with my Hydropool. I'd be happy if someone would answer their phone - much less address this issue. It boils down that I've got a 5k hot tub with jet issues that no one can / will order or return calls or emails. Pretty rotten use of my money I'd say. Hydropool has lost a customer for life, and anyone I can tell. Thanks for keeping the customer happy, wish I'd purchased from you all. Sigh!
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THAT is how you make customers for life.
Term
That's awesome service and I'm sure you do now have a customer for life. Also, I'm sure this person is going tell everyone how great the service was and that is how you grow a business. You can spend all the $$$s in the world on advertising, but there is nothing like word of mouth to really get a strong customer base.
I on the otherhand am not a customer for life of my dealer and am telling everyone I know about their awful service and am reducing their potential customer base.
Well done Term.
In His Peace,
Fred
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Fred, I sure hope your 480 gets fixed soon. I can't go to bed without using my 470 for 20 minutes. I use to use a natural sleeping aid to help me fall asleep but since I got the spa I don't need them any longer. I haven't had to use my dealer for service yet but I also hope I never do.
Each time I hear about your problems I feel bad and want to send a bouncer to your dealership and help put his head on straight. I sure hope Jacuzzi is doing two things. First, offering customer service classes to this dealer and second they should find out who at the plant signed off on the quality slip on this spa. I know it might have been damaged in transit.
Scott >:(
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Scott,
Pump one still works so at least we are still able to soak. Hopefully pump 2 will get replaced this week and that will be the end of it....we'll see.
Have a great day,
Fred