Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Spiderman on March 29, 2008, 05:17:39 pm

Title: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spiderman on March 29, 2008, 05:17:39 pm
When did this happen?  We've got a family shopping between us and Jacuzzi and the Jacuzzi salesperson insists that Jacuzzi has 100% no by-pass filtration; yes even when the jet pumps are on.  Am I missing something or are they being bamboozeled?  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on March 29, 2008, 05:19:41 pm
Bamboozled.  Its really close to no by-pass but not quite.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on March 29, 2008, 05:30:47 pm
Refer them to this diagram in the 2008 HotSpring brochure:

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/227a1621.jpg)

Term
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on March 29, 2008, 05:36:20 pm
 ;D

Term,

I think I need you to do the brochures for every business I'm involved in...
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spiderman on March 29, 2008, 05:37:24 pm
Thanks for the truth Jim; that's what I thought.

And thanks for your wonderful pic Chris; it truly is a work of art!  ;D
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on March 29, 2008, 05:43:27 pm
Quote
;D

Term,

I think I need you to do the brochures for every business I'm involved in...

Done.....no charge! (Unless you want full color)

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/bauerns2008.jpg)

Term
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on March 29, 2008, 05:44:16 pm
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/f8f2f617.jpg)

 Nope I am not going there!!!!  (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/buckwheat.jpg)

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on March 29, 2008, 06:12:56 pm
Quote

Done.....no charge! (Unless you want full color)

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/bauerns2008.jpg)

Term

 :o ;D ;D ;D :o

OMG!

Careful what ye ask, ye may receive...

Hair's a little long, I think that big fella has me by about 20lbs, and a much better tan...

Let's not let the future Mrs. N. find out about my "modeling" career...
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 29, 2008, 06:17:17 pm
Nice diagram...better original question.  My wife and I are going to buy a hot tub and have been looking for the past couple of weeks.  We started knowing nothing about them and after two Saturdays of looking I/we have become much more informed.

We have narrowed our search down to two companies; Jacuzzi and Hot Springs.  We just came from Allied Pools in Green Bay after wet testing Jacuzzi's 480 model got into the filtration question.  At the time I asked the question we were sitting in a dry 375.  I made the question perfectly clear as I had been told by our local Hot Springs dealer about Hot Springs quality filtration system.  The Jacuzzi dealer assured me that 100% of the water is filtered even with all the pumps running.  I again asked the same question in a different manner and he again assured me that YES all the water is flowing through one of the two filters AT ALL times.

He stated that the circulation pump and one of the regular pumps goes through one filtler and when you turn on the second pump it is gathered through the lower "suction" areas and routed through the second filter.  He said this is not true of all Jacuzzis but only with the higher models.  ( I can't remember the term he used)

We are a little confused right now as we try to sort out this hot tub buying project.  We love the lounge with the jets that are in the 480 but it is a bit pricey.  The lounge in the 375 is the same as the 480 but the jets are different for the lounge. And the 375 has no water in it to wet test.  At the same time we like Moto Massage Hot Spring offers but my wife doesn't like the lounge layout......  and on and on.  We can't wet test the units we think we would like.  My wife says to put the three we have it narrowed down to in a hat and pick.  That may very well be the way we finally make our choice.

Thanks for listening (reading) and any imput you could give would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on March 29, 2008, 06:18:27 pm
 He probably thinks the little white socks that cover the suction intakes are filters, which I guess they are in a way, till they fall off.  ;D
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on March 29, 2008, 06:37:11 pm
Quote

 :o ;D ;D ;D :o

OMG!

Careful what ye ask, ye may receive...

Hair's a little long, I think that big fella has me by about 20lbs, and a much better tan...

Let's not let the future Mrs. N. find out about my "modeling" career...

Jacuzzi Jim sent me that picture and said that it was you.  Maybe I was confused and it was Jim's pic.  I've been drinking wine most of the day, so I am sorry for the mixup.
 :-[

Term
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on March 29, 2008, 06:45:42 pm
That's why you should stick with the bock!   8-)

JJ.... :'(



Edit:  Instead of crying, I think I'll join y'all (in spirit) in a frosty cold one.

Prost!
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 29, 2008, 06:52:52 pm
So how does one find out the TRUTH of this question???  And how is something "really close to full bypass but not quite"?  I wonder if I could obtain a schematic of the tub and then follow the tubbing on the lower suction intacts and see if they flow through a filter before reaching the pump.

We're leaning towards writing the tubs down and drawing them out of a hat.....

Thanks,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 29, 2008, 07:02:26 pm
Oh boy, guys Who is going to win this Pissin' (OMG) Contest :o :o
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on March 29, 2008, 07:05:26 pm
Quote
Oh boy, guys Who is going to win this Pissin' (OMG) Contest :o :o


im out i only have 50 sg ft per Jimbo
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 29, 2008, 07:05:35 pm
By the Way Saved By Grace--these guys will get you laughing.  SOmewhere in all the BS out comes some sort of truth.  One thing is---they are all passionate about their products.

Good Luck.

another spa searcher...and keeping my eye on the prize--


Chris
WWHT :) 8-)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Chas on March 29, 2008, 07:14:34 pm
Hey! Saved by Grace! Me too!

As to the question - as far as I know, HotSpring is the only one with no-bypass filtration and no lower suction fittings. Marquis has a version of it in which the lower suctions were in fact plumbed into the filter housing so that all water did get filtered before going on to pumps. I don't know if they still do this, but it is/was a good system.

Other than Marquis, it is easy - if you see lower suction fittings, you have a bypass arrangement going on. Also - if you have one filter, or one filter per pump, you have bypass - again, except for Marquis.

They all work, but the no-bypass filtration on a HotSpring will do in about ten minutes what a bypass spa can take up to two hours to do. The reason I say "up to" two hours is because the amount of bypass is very much dependent upon the condition of the filter(s). When they are new and clean, lots of water will go through them and the system will work well. As they get dirty, and as they age, they will offer up more resistance to the flow of water, and so more water will be drawn into the lower suction fittings. That means that you will be filtering much less and bypassing much more.

I am an expert on this because our Tiger River, Solana, HotSpot, Caldera and Limelight spas all have bypass arrangements.

Marquis changed their web site, so I can't post the link to the picture I used to use - but I don't know if they are still doing things that way or not. I do know that they put two-speed pumps on the jet system, and they run one of them on low speed to filter - that moves more water than the small circ pump. So if they are bypassing, they are making up for it in volume of water moved. You decide if one is better...


In closing.... let me say that some makers teach their sales team to say, "we filter 100% of the water."

But that doesn't mean that all the water entering the plumbing has gone through a filter. What they may be saying is that if the tub holds 350 gallons, it will filter an amount equal to 350 gallons in a given amount of time, usually one day or one filter cycle. That is an attempt to make it sound equal to HotSpring, which I find quite flattering, but not all that clear.

 8-)

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on March 29, 2008, 07:22:02 pm
Quote
So how does one find out the TRUTH of this question???  And how is something "really close to full bypass but not quite"?  I wonder if I could obtain a schematic of the tub and then follow the tubbing on the lower suction intacts and see if they flow through a filter before reaching the pump.

We're leaning towards writing the tubs down and drawing them out of a hat.....

Thanks,
Fred


   The filtration works like this on the J-375 pump 1 draws though one of the filters, it has a by-pass suction which it will draw from in case the filter is obstructed. The other filter is dedicated to the circ pump. Pump 2 draws solely from the suction in the foot well.  So no, its not 100% no by pass filtration but it does do a really really good job.  But if thats the only reason you are buying a spa for then the Hot springs would be the ticket.

 On the 400 series it has a high flo circ pump similar to a main pump, it draws through that floaty skimmer thing close to 60,000 gallons a day, no by pass suction, filter only.   Now it varies on models but pump 1 for example will draw though whats called the polishing bag, from a suction on the floor btm of the spa, it will filter about 10lbs of sand if that much were to get in there, something a Hot springs cannot do, its a feature I really like, because spas always get grit and sand in them. now pump 2 draws from the std suctions in the btm like the 375.  The reason for me its close to no bypass is it turns a tremendous amount of water over in a day, no its not complete no by-pass but it again does a really really good job.   I would rally Jacuzzi, Sundance, Marquis and yes even the arctic spa up against the no by-pass filtraton of the Hot springs any day.

 All are really good choices! Don't let one guys filtration system sway you to buy the spa  because of it, their are to many things besides filtration.  Comfort,price and of course the dealer. You can have the best spa in the world (Jacuzzi ;)) but if the dealers not gonna take care of you it doesn't matter!


 Ok I am gone for the weekend.   I have left the building YALL have a good weekend!!  Goarctic I do mean you as well!!  :)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Mendocino101 on March 29, 2008, 08:37:06 pm
 Are we not splitting hairs. I mean if you have 100% no by pass or if you filter 100% of the water over and over during the day? Can anyone really make the claim that one is significantly better. What is over looked is water sanitation if your spa water is not balanced and and does not have a safe amount of sanitizer in it than the filtering will not matter with no regard to whose brand it is.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Gomboman on March 29, 2008, 09:49:36 pm
Fred, are you shopping at Spiderman's store? I think your Jacuzzi dealer is not being very honest with you. Why don't you give him the link to this post and maybe he can explain himself. I hope this doesn't go to the Dead Horse section. Good luck with your search........
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spatech_tuo on March 29, 2008, 10:01:46 pm
Quote
Fred, are you shopping at Spiderman's store? I think your Jacuzzi dealer is not being very honest with you. Why don't you give him the link to this post and maybe he can explain himself. I hope this doesn't go to the Dead Horse section. Good luck with your search........

It could also be that he just doesn't know he's not being accurate. The first thing a new spa salesman does is to try to act like he knows what he talking about. The good ones turn it around quickly and eventually become knowledgeable. I remember one new sales lady in particular who was great at sounding like she knew what she was talking about. I marveled at her confidence in sounding informed when she knew she was half winging it. That works with many customers who aren't up to speed but the informed ones smell it out. I would council her after her presentation on what she was missing and she eventually went from sounding like she knew what she was saying to actually knowing and became a very good sales person.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 29, 2008, 10:13:21 pm
Thanks all for your imput.

wewannahottub I take it from your little nurse looking icon that you are in fact a nurse.  So is my wife.  Go luck to you in your search for that prize.  We are very excited to get one in our back yard...in place of the snow that is still out there.  Time is on our side in our search because not only does the rest of snow have to melt, I also have to add onto our deck to put our tub on.  Thanks for the encouraging words.

Chas, thanks for the info.  I take it from your post that you are a believer and a Hot Springs dealer.  I appreciate your time in responding to my post.  I'm a little concerned about we've discovered to be HS policy of not doing business with a customer if there is a closer/local dealer.  What I mean is this..we stopped at the local HS dealer and then traveled approx. 80 miles to another dealer.  At this further dealer we wet tested a Vista and an Aria.  We then dry sat in a Grandee which we liked alot.  He gave us a price and said they would sell it to us and the local dealer would be able to service us.  We ended up back at our local dealer and wet test an Envoy.  During our conversation we told her about our other visit 80 miles away.

To make a long story short she told us that she wouldn't be able to service us that the selling dealer has to be the one to service the customer.  On top of that she called the other dealer and put the kibosh on me getting the best price from them so I would have something to compare deals with.  Almost seemed like price fixing.  Now I have no idea if the price she is qouting me is even decent...which is all I was really looking for; a decent price.  I'm a little put off by that whole experience.

Jacuzzi Jim.  Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me.  It makes alot of sense.  We really like the 480 and the idea of sand getting sucked out of the bottom makes a lot of sense.  We are going to wet test the 480 one more time.  I want to make sure that the foot pedestal doesn't get in my way for stretching out.  My wife absolutely loved the lounge and the jets in the lounge.  I must admit there is nothing even close to those jets that we have come accross yet.  WOW they are awsome...but come with a cost.

As far as splitting hairs; perhaps I am.  However, the Jacuzzi salesman was clear about exactly what I was asking him.  So, one of three things is going on.  1)  Jacuzzi Jim doesn't know what he's talking about.  He sure seems to.  2) The salesman didn't know what he was talking about. Or 3)  The salesman lied to us.  I HATE being lied to.  
So when we go back to the dealer, I will straighten this out or I won't buy from them.

In His Peace,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 29, 2008, 10:43:41 pm
Quote
Thanks all for your imput.

wewannahottub I take it from your little nurse looking icon that you are in fact a nurse.  So is my wife.  Go luck to you in your search for that prize.  We are very excited to get one in our back yard...in place of the snow that is still out there.  Time is on our side in our search because not only does the rest of snow have to melt, I also have to add onto our deck to put our tub on.  Thanks for the encouraging words.

.

In His Peace,
Fred

SBG--I am a nurse--local community hospital ICU.  LIke the dealers on this post (and, sometimes I am tempted to call it Hot Spring Forum---my bad---) I am passionate about my job.  And, for the dealers out there bs'ng to their customers, SHAME---

If one of my patients' families had questions that I couldn't answer, I tell them I don't quite nknow the answer.  (You know, b'cause the docs try to avoid the families!!  my bad again)  and beside that, the nurse is with the patient 8 or 12 hours a day.

Anyhoo--I am ready for the tub, since we decided not to re-do the deck we originally wanted it on, saving us some time and $$$, and put it on the concrete-based porch/deck.  Now if the dealers were ready----or close by....

Continued well wishing in your spa search--but it sounds like someone is going to try to shank you. >:( >:( >:(

BTW--dealers out there---WHy is it you can buy a Dodge (or any car)and take it to another dealer for service, but not a hot tub???

Could this have started another post??? ::) :-? :o

Hooboy.  

WWHT ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 29, 2008, 11:16:00 pm
WWHT

Which tub are buying?  And why?

Thanks,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 29, 2008, 11:28:36 pm
Quote
WWHT

Which tub are buying?  And why?

Thanks,
Fred


So far, we kn't have a clue.  We have only wet-tested a Clearwater, and I have been in my friends new  Arctic Kodiak LE, dry tested D1 Amore (but now we are re-visiting Lotus Bay) Dynasty Caspian 55 (we are waiting for the dealer to get a new tub to wet test,as well, they sell Arctic--I want a Tundra), we have dry sat in Cal Spas--again, not too many recommendations on this forum.  SUndance didn't fit my hubby, and we didn't want to wet test the Maxxus.  Hubby wants to see an Artesian, but can't find any within a 100 mile radius-and I think service would be an issue, then.  

So, he and I have gone back and forth for weeks now, and still not a clue!  I know the HS guys here really want me to check a Grandee, but it just doesnt make me googly eyed. :o  

I am hoping we have our epiphany day soon--when we find the perfect spa at a perfect price with the perfect options from the perfect dealer.  I know, my sights are set high.

Still on the list
1 Arctic Tundra
2 Jacuzzi J470
3 Dimension 1 Lotus Bay
4 Dynasty Caspian 55 or TItan 5000
5 Artesian, if my hubby can convince me to drive far for a dealer and have service charges out the wazzooooo....
but he's cute and I love him :-* :-* and he makes me googly eyed...heehee

(i know--I am cheesy)

Chrisi
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on March 30, 2008, 02:10:25 am
I find the insinuation that Watkins would engage in price fixing in any form to be personally offensive.  A company does not remain atop an industry for over 20 years by engaging in fraudulent practices.  There are plenty of sleazeball spa companies operating in North America, and Watkins is as diametrically opposed to these lowlifes as you can get.

In regards to the local HS dealer not wanting to service a spa he didn't sell, he has every right to do so.  By the same token, the customer is free to buy a spa from whomever he wants.  It is still a free country, somewhat.

Over the years, I've read posts from dealers of many different brands who have indicated that they would not service a spa their comrade-in-arms sold.  Some of these major spa companies (it has been stated) have very defined and strict boundaries.  Just yesterday, a prominent forum member alluded to the fact that if someone bought a "name brand spa" off the internet, they would probably have a tough time getting the local dealer to service it.

Our little company down here in Texas only services what we sell.  We don't sell spas to people that we can not reliably service and we take exception to dealers that don't take care of their customers.  ANYBODY WILL SELL YOU A SPA and they will promise you the moon and the stars and lay it on thick about the service after the sale they're gonna give you.  It's ironic how many of those slicksters are long gone and we're still here and thriving.

It has been our policy for 23 years and it has served us well.  More importantly, OUR CUSTOMERS dearly appreciate the fact that we adhere to certain principles and standards which are evidently sorely lacking nowadays.  If it upsets someone on occasion and we lose a sale because of it....well that's just the price of keeping one's integrity.  And we can live with that.



Ya'll have fun with one another.  I've got a full schedule ahead of me for a good long stretch and my attention needs to be focused there.  I've enjoyed conversing with all of you tremendously, but real life beckons and it's time to move on down the road.

If anyone needs me, give me a holler.  Take care!

Chris O signing off...  Â 

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: IL Parrothead on March 30, 2008, 02:54:00 am
Fred,
I am guessing that your jacuzzi salesman is engaged in what spatech tuo was talking about.  There are, unfortunately, quite a few salesman out there that knew less about their product than I did when I walked into their showroom during my search.  And there were a whole BUNCH that knew very little about the competition.  Most of them would indicate that their spa was the only one to have feature X, until I would tell them of the 2 or 3 other makes that had the same thing.  After I had pretty much made my mind up on what spa to buy, I walked into a store near my office.  They sell Baja.  That guy answered 5 or 6 questions about his own product with answers I later found (on the Baja website) out to be incorrect.  I mean, simple stuff like full-foam or thermal pane insulation!!!
Jacuzzi Jim and Chas sum up the filtration issue pretty well.  One other thing I'll add, is that some people claim (and I'll leave it for the gurus to argue whether it's true) that the HS system can result in less pressure at the jets if their filters are not maintained properly -- because there is no bypass like on other spas in the event the filters get clogged.  I have wet tested HS (I'm assuming with nicely maintained filters), and enjoyed the jets.  Just thought I'd raise the last bullet point on the bypass filtration that I've heard in the past.
All in all, stick with the good name brands (and you've heard most of them in this thread).  They all do a great job providing clean water, albeit with different methods.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 30, 2008, 08:55:36 am
East Tex Spa,

Thank you for your reply.  We have only been exposed to the Hot Tub industry for the last couple of weeks and are still learning the industry.  So that I'm clear on a couple of things.  First, I didn't mean to insult a long standing company like HS.  I was simply expaining what happened to us and to me, locally at least, it was close to price fixing.  We had visited a dealer and he followed up twice and spoke with my wife.  He wanted to know what it would take (price wise) to get our business.  She told him he would have to speak to me.  The third time he called he reached me.  His tone changed completely and he said they wouldn't be able to service us.  I told my wife I'll bet the local dealer called them....sure enough we talked to our local dealer and she told us they spoke to them and that was the end of ANY price negotiating power I had.  Call whatever happened whatever you want....

Secondly, As far as this being a free country, it still is.  Again I'm trying to understand the industry.  Is it an industry standard that any dealer of any brand can refuse to service a product?  If so, then it really isn't a company warranty, but a dealership warranty.  I'm in the powersports business and if we refused to service a unit we would lose our dealership.  In this free country they would back up the truck and take our product away from us.  So my question is, is the warranty that comes with a Hot Springs tub a company warranty that is supported by their entire network of dealers, or is it a dealership warranty that all non-selling dealers are not allowed to or can refuse to service their tubs?  And if so is this what I'll find all accross the industry?  Knowing the answer to this question will really help us make our decision.

East Tex Spa.  You sound like a man I would love to do business with.  You sound like a no-nonsense straight shooter and I wish your store was close by.  After two weeks of spa research our heads are spinning and we just want to be sure our $8K to $11k expenditure is based on solid and truthful information.  Thanks again for your reply.

Parrothead, Thanks for the input.  Makes sense that the HS could lose some power as the filters get dirty because there is no by pass.  The jets in the ones we wet tested sure had plenty of power at the time.  Last night I read through "Beating a Dead Dog" string and came to the conclusion that we aren't going to put much weight on the HS 100% by pass.  I believe the Jucuzzi can keep the water just as clean.

Thanks all,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 30, 2008, 09:09:52 am
Quote

Still on the list
1 Arctic Tundra
2 Jacuzzi J470
3 Dimension 1 Lotus Bay
4 Dynasty Caspian 55 or TItan 5000
5 Artesian, if my hubby can convince me to drive far for a dealer and have service charges out the wazzooooo....
but he's cute and I love him :-* :-* and he makes me googly eyed...heehee

(i know--I am cheesy)

Chrisi

The only one on your list we have experience with is the Jacuzzi J470.  We wet tested the J480.  The 480 has a lounge and the 470 doesn't.  We love the 480 and my wife absolutely loves the lounge.  It has Jacuzzi jets call PowerPro FX2.  They are the best jets we have experienced to date.  There are six in the lounge.  On the 470 they are in one of the corner seats but drop down to a cluster of 5 instead of six.

We would buy the 480 but when we wet tested it we were in and out kind of fast.  My concern is that after the wet test we dry sat in another Jacuzzi that had the sme foot pedestal and it seemed to be in my way for streching out.  I didn't notice it while in the 480 wet so maybe with water in it, it wouldn't be an issue.  But now I'm concerned....so we'll just have to wet test it again.  Another thing is it is the most expensive one were considering at this time.

Have a great Sunday,
Fred
Good luck
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: windsurfdog on March 30, 2008, 10:18:01 am
Quote
Are we not splitting hairs. I mean if you have 100% no by pass or if you filter 100% of the water over and over during the day? Can anyone really make the claim that one is significantly better. What is over looked is water sanitation if your spa water is not balanced and and does not have a safe amount of sanitizer in it than the filtering will not matter with no regard to whose brand it is.

Well done, Mendo...best post in this thread by a long shot.

Fred, forget all the talk and cute drawings re: hot tub sanitation methods.  If you buy any tub from a major manufacturer, you will get a quality sanitation system...all the rest is just marketing.  Do yourself a favor and concentrate on the therapy provided by the tub and the confidence you would have in the dealer from whom you will purchase...and leave all the marketing to the retailers. 8-)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Mendocino101 on March 30, 2008, 10:28:39 am
Quote

Well done, Mendo...best post in this thread by a long shot.

quote]

Wow words I would not think I would hear but Thank you...I agree with you....Just about any spa on the market today will work for filtering sure some will do a better job and do offer some advantages but if you neglect the water management of your spa forget it none will save you...As you said find the spa you like best. What I would stay away from putting any real weight on is things like waterfalls, lights, stereos. Those things I think wind mattering less to folks once in the yard than they seem to do on the showroom floor.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Tailhooker on March 30, 2008, 10:31:34 am
Quote
On my way out the door - time for a quick post.

As Term said, HS strives for integrity in all of its dealers. As any company with 800 plus dealers will tell you, not all live up to the expectations. We are required by contract to service what we sell. Beyond that, I could sell anywhere in the world. I can't market outside of my territory, but I can sell. That's why I don't market via Internet or other means which go outside the area I want to drive my service trucks.

What happened to you does sound bad to me, and I would only say that it is rare from a Watkins dealer. I have dealers near me, and if they offer a lowball price, I have to choose to honor it and eat the difference, or let them have the deal. But I sure don't call the distant dealer and close down anything in the works. We call that "free market" around here...

So, get the best price you can. But get it in writing, and don't waste their time - if you like the price, write the check. Let them know in clear, polite terms that you like the  product and want to buy it at the lowest price you can. Having a pen in one hand and a check in the other is always the very best negotiating tool, and you might be surprised to find the dealer will offer a matching price, or even include travel charges.

Before you write the check, be sure to get a written estimate of the costs of a service call. 80 miles is a 'far piece and it would be fair to pay travel time. You will not have many service calls on a HS tub, but be aware that if you are outside of the normal service area ANY tub maker can and might charge travel time to get to you even on a warranty item.

Then figure in all those variables and go with what you like.

I have worked with Watkins Manufacturing for over 21 years. I have been invited to share my personal testimony on more than one occasion to dealer meetings, Top Gun sales training and other factory-sponsored events. I think you will find them one of the 'good' guys in this business. Not perfect, but they sure are trying to be.

 8-)


Good info, asking for the written estimate, I try to be up front telling the salesmen/women that I am just looking at the moment and so far they haven't been pushy, maybe after I start wet testing their spas they might get a more pushy knowing that I am a serious buyer.  By-pass no by-pass... keep the filters clean and test your water and everything should be fine.  Now the next important question is how many hot tubs with 100% by-pass have a plastic BASE!!! ;D
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 30, 2008, 10:48:07 am
Quote
I find the insinuation that Watkins would engage in price fixing in any form to be personally offensive.  A company does not remain atop an industry for over 20 years by engaging in fraudulent practices.  There are plenty of sleazeball spa companies operating in North America, and Watkins is as diametrically opposed to these lowlifes as you can get.



Chris O signing off...   



Termie.  

I don't think Saved by Grace was dissin' on Watkins.  ONLY THE DEALERS he and his wife are dealing with. That would be the shameful part there.  You gotta admit, just because you are honest and reputable, doesn't mean ALL Watkins (or any other brand dealer) are.  And that is a gol' darn shame. >:( >:(

Stickin' up for us little guys.

WWHT ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 30, 2008, 10:48:51 am
Funny how these things work.  It was Spiderman who started this string and it does end up that he was referring to us.  I want to make it perfectly clear to all that are reading this post.

Spiderman has been great while dealing with us.  Do I think they made a mistake by calling the other dealer? Yes.  However, they have been nothing but completely honest with us.  I will have absolutely no hesitation of buying from them if we decide on Hot Springs.  I have no doubt they would service us like family because that is just how they treated us from day one....  They have opened the store to us on a saturday eveing to wet test and been willing to offer to do it again if we need to.

I hope I've been clear.

Thanks All,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 30, 2008, 10:55:35 am
Quote
East Tex Spa,

Thank you for your reply.  We have only been exposed to the Hot Tub industry for the last couple of weeks and are still learning the industry.  So that I'm clear on a couple of things.  First, I didn't mean to insult a long standing company like HS.  I was simply expaining what happened to us and to me, locally at least, it was close to price fixing.  We had visited a dealer and he followed up twice and spoke with my wife.  He wanted to know what it would take (price wise) to get our business.  She told him he would have to speak to me.  The third time he called he reached me.  His tone changed completely and he said they wouldn't be able to service us.  I told my wife I'll bet the local dealer called them....sure enough we talked to our local dealer and she told us they spoke to them and that was the end of ANY price negotiating power I had.  Call whatever happened whatever you want....

Secondly, As far as this being a free country, it still is.  Again I'm trying to understand the industry.  Is it an industry standard that any dealer of any brand can refuse to service a product?  If so, then it really isn't a company warranty, but a dealership warranty.  I'm in the powersports business and if we refused to service a unit we would lose our dealership.  In this free country they would back up the truck and take our product away from us.  So my question is, is the warranty that comes with a Hot Springs tub a company warranty that is supported by their entire network of dealers, or is it a dealership warranty that all non-selling dealers are not allowed to or can refuse to service their tubs?  And if so is this what I'll find all accross the industry?  Knowing the answer to this question will really help us make our decision.

East Tex Spa.  You sound like a man I would love to do business with.  You sound like a no-nonsense straight shooter and I wish your store was close by.  After two weeks of spa research our heads are spinning and we just want to be sure our $8K to $11k expenditure is based on solid and truthful information.  Thanks again for your reply.

Parrothead, Thanks for the input.  Makes sense that the HS could lose some power as the filters get dirty because there is no by pass.  The jets in the ones we wet tested sure had plenty of power at the time.  Last night I read through "Beating a Dead Dog" string and came to the conclusion that we aren't going to put much weight on the HS 100% by pass.  I believe the Jucuzzi can keep the water just as clean.

Thanks all,
Fred

Fred and nurse-wife ;),

Keep a clear and realistic view of the dealers.  I have learned to not be pressured.  It's easy to fall prey.  Maybe if you tell the HS dealers that you are still looking at other BRANDS--which would be just as, if not more competetive.  I would think ANY dealer/buyer/rep on this forum would AGREE it is YOUR $$$ NOT theirs.  I am going to be upfront with ANY dealer and tell them that their brand is not the only one I am interested in.  What it will come down to, is what the final cost will be, how the dealer handles my business, as well as how will they service and deliver it.  I feel you and your wife will know what is right, and it sounds like these 2 dealers are giving you red flags.  Go with your gut instinct.

Good Luck.  We are going to wet test some D1's today!!! 8-) ;D ;)

WWHT
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 30, 2008, 10:59:04 am
Quote
Funny how these things work.  It was Spiderman who started this string and it does end up that he was referring to us.  I want to make it perfectly clear to all that are reading this post.

Spiderman has been great while dealing with us.  Do I think they made a mistake by calling the other dealer? Yes.  However, they have been nothing but completely honest with us.  I will have absolutely no hesitation of buying from them if we decide on Hot Springs.  I have no doubt they would service us like family because that is just how they treated us from day one....  They have opened the store to us on a saturday eveing to wet test and been willing to offer to do it again if we need to.

I hope I've been clear.

Thanks All,
Fred

Ok, All Clear Now!!  I get inscensed (sp?) if I think someone is getting the run around.

Fred, if SPiderman is giving you good service, good.  And good luck.  I am sure if Spidey is on this forum, he is knowledgable and sees both ends of the spectrum.

Spidey--sorry if I sounded like I was dissin' on ya  lol

WWHT
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spiderman on March 30, 2008, 11:03:42 am
Thanks for response Fred, we really appreciate it.  I'd like to add some info as well for the rest of you fine folks.  The only call we made was to our Regional Sales Manager becuase we were told that the salesman at the other HS store 80 miles away told Fred and his wife that they could sell them the tub and then WE would service it for them.  That's news to me!  I knew per our dealer agreement with Watkins that this wasn't true and it was a down right lie so I called our RSM to verify.  Promising or saying things to potential customers which aren't true and using our name in the equation gets me a little upset.  I'm sure other dealers would feel the same way.   It's possible our RSM called the other store to address the service issue, but I don't know that for sure.  All I know is that we've done all can to help Fred and his wife in any way possible, including telling them to take their time with their spa shopping and purchase so they don't buy a tub that isn't for them; even if that means them buying a different brand from someone else.  Let's face it, anyone who spends as much money as customers do on a hot tub purchase had better make sure its the right tub.  If someone has a bad experience with their hot tub, it's not good for anyone in the hot tub business.    
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 30, 2008, 11:14:04 am
Quote
Thanks for response Fred, we really appreciate it.  I'd like to add some info as well for the rest of you fine folks.  The only call we made was to our Regional Sales Manager becuase we were told that the salesman at the other HS store 80 miles away told Fred and his wife that they could sell them the tub and then WE would service it for them.  That's news to me!  I knew per our dealer agreement with Watkins that this wasn't true and it was a down right lie so I called our RSM to verify.  Promising or saying things to potential customers which aren't true and using our name in the equation gets me a little upset.  I'm sure other dealers would feel the same way.   It's possible our RSM called the other store to address the service issue, but I don't know that for sure.  All I know is that we've done all can to help Fred and his wife in any way possible, including telling them to take their time with their spa shopping and purchase so they don't buy a tub that isn't for them; even if that means them buying a different brand from someone else.  Let's face it, anyone who spends as much money as customers do on a hot tub purchase had better make sure its the right tub.  If someone has a bad experience with their hot tub, it's not good for anyone in the hot tub business.    

good to see both sides of the fence.   ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Chas on March 30, 2008, 12:30:27 pm
Now that sounds more like it. I am glad we got that aired out -

Thanks.

 8-)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: IL Parrothead on March 30, 2008, 05:16:26 pm
Kumbaya, my Lord.....Kumbaya.......... ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 30, 2008, 06:04:26 pm
I'm glad this is cleared up.  However, I still would like to know if Hot Springs is the only one that is really a dealership warranty backed by the manufacturer or if this is the industry standard.  I'm really having a hard time with "we'll service who we want" or "we can't service it if we didn't sell it".  That scares me a bit...anyone else?  Also, if I sell it to someone else the warranty voids, that is very interesting to me also.

Thanks,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: hottubdan on March 30, 2008, 06:21:19 pm
Quote
I'm glad this is cleared up.  However, I still would like to know if Hot Springs is the only one that is really a dealership warranty backed by the manufacturer or if this is the industry standard.  I'm really having a hard time with "we'll service who we want" or "we can't service it if we didn't sell it".  That scares me a bit...anyone else?  Also, if I sell it to someone else the warranty voids, that is very interesting to me also.

Thanks,
Fred

Fred,

It is pretty much an industry standard that the selling dealer is responsible for seeing that what they sell is serviced.  I picked my words carefully.  The dealer does not have to service it; they just have to make sure someone does.

There are several reasons for this.  We like to think we are establishing relationships with our customers.  Perhaps the major difference between what we do and the power sport or automobile industries are that owners bring their vehicles to the service center rather than the serviceman going to your house.  

The spa industry is in its infancy.  Watkins Mfg. is 31 years old; not the oldest but one of the oldest in the industry.  As you have learned here if you have been reading several threads, there are many snaky dealers, who would be tempted to sell anywhere, it they did not have to service what they sell.  In our industry, we have learned you get much better customer service if you can deal with the people who sold you your spa.

Buy the way, I have met Spiderman at a dealer conference in CA.  Those who spend their own money to continue to get educated are industry leaders.  I am sure he will take care of you.

Dan
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 30, 2008, 06:45:56 pm
Thanks for the reply Dan.

This type of warranty is foreign to me.  On the surface it seems quite a conveint manner to hold prices pretty firm.  What is the reason a warranty doesn't transfer ownership?

Also, I have no doubt Spiderman would do much to make our hot tub owership as pleasant as possible.  They've already done more to help us learn about them then anyone else.

Thanks again,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 30, 2008, 06:49:48 pm
Hey, dealers, speaking of servicing olny spas you sold, what happens if a customer moves far away and takes/brings their spa with them??  Then what??  

Just curious

WWHT
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Chris_H on March 30, 2008, 08:08:43 pm
I think it is pretty safe to say that the policy is on a case by case basis.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: hottubdan on March 30, 2008, 08:58:07 pm
Quote
Hey, dealers, speaking of servicing olny spas you sold, what happens if a customer moves far away and takes/brings their spa with them??  Then what??  

Just curious

WWHT

If you have a major brand with dealers everywhere, the dealer in the area you move to picks up the warranty.  If you have a spa from a smaller manufacturer with less dealers you may have to work with the manufacturer to find an independent to help you.

Since most manufacturers compensate for warranty a lot less than service companies charge regular customers (sometimes less than cost), sometimes it is tough.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Chas on March 31, 2008, 12:32:39 am
Quote
Hey, dealers, speaking of servicing olny spas you sold, what happens if a customer moves far away and takes/brings their spa with them??  Then what??  

Just curious

WWHT
Part of my agreement with Watkins requires that I service customers who move into my area. I have no problem doing so - why would I? I want to get to know them, allow them to get to know us, and hopefully build a relationship which will last a long time.

I have been in business so long this doesn't really apply, but I was also required to service any customers who were already in my area the day I opened my store. So if I go take over another dealership ( I have done this once already and may do so again if the economic rebound continues) I will have to service the customers in the area. That may end up letting some other dealer 'off the hook' for tubs they sold into my new area...

The point is that we are pressured by the manufacturer to service what we sell. They take care of us so we can take care of you.

It has already been discussed, but another take on the comparison to the automotive warranty world would be this - they really are the same. If you could drive your spa to any dealer in the country, I'm sure they would service it for you with no worry about who sold it to you. But since I may have to drive a couple hours round trip to show up at your door, I'm going to do what I can to keep my service radius just the right size for my operation, so I can offer the kind of service I would want.

 8-)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 31, 2008, 08:13:48 am
Chas, thanks for explaining.  I kinda figured that was what would happen, but it hadn't been brought up.''As far as the last paragraph in your post, I can't say I blame you or any other dealer wanting to narrow your radius, since that would also backlog your time for your close dealers.

I would assume, as well, though that dealers and independent techs have connections in other towns to refer to if needed. :)

WWHT :)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Vanguard on March 31, 2008, 09:41:28 am
One thing not said yet is about the price fixing.  This really isn't close to price fixing.  All the dealers involved are still able to sell the spas for whatever price they want.

The dealer 80 miles away could still sell the spa for whatever they want.  They just have to service it.  I'm sure when that dealer found out Watkins would stick to its long established policy, he decided he didn't want to have to worry with service far away.  BUT, that was his choice to pull out.

I like the policy myself.  It keeps people from selling all over the country with no regard for service - and that is one of it's main purposes.  Could you imagine what would happen if a really savvy internet guy started selling a top brand all over the country all based on low prices?  That brand would soon get a bad reputation because of the lack of service available.  

Hot tubs are not like many things out there.  For one, the warranties are longer than most products.  Even most cars only have a three year warranty.  Refrigerators only have a one year warranty.  The longer warranty would really expose local service people to fix something under warranty.  And warranty service is typically not a profit center.  So I would imagine the local dealers would rebel and stop doing service work and the brand would be dragged down for it.   Like Chas said earlier, it's not like you can just take your hot tub in for service.  Someone has real costs just getting to your spa to repair it.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: wewannahottub on March 31, 2008, 09:57:20 am
Quote
Chas, ''As far as the last paragraph in your post, I can't say I blame you or any other dealer wanting to narrow your radius, since that would also backlog your time for your close dealers.


WWHT :)


I meant to say close customers.  My bad.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on March 31, 2008, 12:33:18 pm
This is all very interesting to me.  I love learning new things about industries.  I find it interesting that dealers seem to be making very little if anything when servicing a Hot Tub.  To me that should be a profit center for both warranty work and non-warranty work.  If this is true than I can see where a dealer would have to capture as much as they can on the front end of the sale and then hope the person comes back for the chemicals and filters.  Which makes me wonder if one can find cheap chemicals and filters online or walmart.  I could see that hurting a dealer also.

You guys are great with the input.  I really am learning a lot and look forward to the day my wife and I can enjoy actually coming home and jumping in......

Have a great day,
In His Peace,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Mendocino101 on March 31, 2008, 10:28:46 pm
Quote
One thing not said yet is about the price fixing.  This really isn't close to price fixing.  All the dealers involved are still able to sell the spas for whatever price they want.

The dealer 80 miles away could still sell the spa for whatever they want.  They just have to service it.  I'm sure when that dealer found out Watkins would stick to its long established policy, he decided he didn't want to have to worry with service far away.  BUT, that was his choice to pull out.

I like the policy myself.  It keeps people from selling all over the country with no regard for service - and that is one of it's main purposes.  Could you imagine what would happen if a really savvy internet guy started selling a top brand all over the country all based on low prices?  That brand would soon get a bad reputation because of the lack of service available.  

Hot tubs are not like many things out there.  For one, the warranties are longer than most products.  Even most cars only have a three year warranty.  Refrigerators only have a one year warranty.  The longer warranty would really expose local service people to fix something under warranty.  And warranty service is typically not a profit center.  So I would imagine the local dealers would rebel and stop doing service work and the brand would be dragged down for it.   Like Chas said earlier, it's not like you can just take your hot tub in for service.  Someone has real costs just getting to your spa to repair it.


Great post with some real good information. The longer warranty's the lower rate that a dealer is paid to service the spa all contribute to why selling dealers is in most cases are obligated to service the spa. If a person moves than the local dealer takes over service and I think most feel this is fair since it works both ways. Also not all stores are a like and 80 miles away can be far less expensive regarding overheard allowing one dealer to sell for less but actually make the same or in some case more profit. Hot tubs are a small niche market and as such it is not wise to lump than in with other large ticket items. They are a specialty item.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Dipstick on April 01, 2008, 02:01:39 pm
Any spa that has a filter can make the claim 100% filtration, eventually all the water will go through the filter.


Seriously, it does not matter as long as the spa has a filter you can keep the spa clean and sanitized. All the filtration claims are simply marketing tools.

The filtering issue should not play into a purchasing decision.

I can out two 400 gallon spas side by side one with true 100% filtration and one with only a 25 square foot by pass filter and they both will clean water.

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: SerjicalStrike on April 01, 2008, 02:52:26 pm
Quote
Any spa that has a filter can make the claim 100% filtration, eventually all the water will go through the filter.


Seriously, it does not matter as long as the spa has a filter you can keep the spa clean and sanitized. All the filtration claims are simply marketing tools.

The filtering issue should not play into a purchasing decision.

I can out two 400 gallon spas side by side one with true 100% filtration and one with only a 25 square foot by pass filter and they both will clean water.


Hotspring 100% filtration means that anytime a pump is turned on, the water going to that pump first goes through a filter, 100% of the time with no bypass.

Sundance/Jacuzzi 100% filtration means that 100% of the water being pulled into the filtration system is going directly through the filter, with no bypass.  

You cannot guarantee that 100% off the water is going through a filter if there is a bypass, although the user is more important than the filtration system.   If a spa is well taken care of, the size of the filter really doesn't matter, like you say.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Swell-Tub on April 01, 2008, 05:28:28 pm
Quote
If a spa is well taken care of, the size of the filter really doesn't matter, like you say.

So you are telling us that size dosen't matter.

Scott  ;D
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: hottubdan on April 01, 2008, 06:49:25 pm
Quote



Sundance/Jacuzzi 100% filtration means that 100% of the water being pulled into the filtration system is going directly through the filter, with no bypass.  



Sure, 100% of the water being pulled into the filtration system is going directly through the filter, with no bypass.   However, Sundance/Jacuzzi and every nonHotSpring do have bypasses.  Therefore, by definition, with bypasses,  all the water being pulled into the filtration system is going to the filter; however,  not all the water is going into the filtration system.


Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 01, 2008, 06:56:35 pm
 At some point it goes through the filter, just not at that particular moment.  Thing is it is a neat system, but why haven't more manufacturers done it yet? I am sure they could, if they wanted to.  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: hottubdan on April 01, 2008, 07:10:18 pm
Quote
At some point it goes through the filter, just not at that particular moment.    

Agreed! ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Gomboman on April 02, 2008, 02:08:24 am
Why don't other manufacturers besides HS use no bypass filtration? I'm assuming HS has a patent filed on this method?
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: SerjicalStrike on April 02, 2008, 07:49:35 am
Quote
Why don't other manufacturers besides HS use no bypass filtration? I'm assuming HS has a patent filed on this method?


Because other companies don't want to have their customers deal with multiple filters.  The large pumps need 2 suctions, so that means 2 filters.  2 large pumps + a circulation pump = 5 filters.   You also need to have room to house those 5 filters.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: SerjicalStrike on April 02, 2008, 07:56:52 am
Quote

Sure, 100% of the water being pulled into the filtration system is going directly through the filter, with no bypass.   However, Sundance/Jacuzzi and every nonHotSpring do have bypasses.  Therefore, by definition, with bypasses,  all the water being pulled into the filtration system is going to the filter; however,  not all the water is going into the filtration system.



I guess we are getting into symantics at this point.  Sundance designed their spas so that the filtration system and the therapy system are separate.  Therefore, every day, 50000 gallons of water are passed through the filter, with no bypass.  Let me rephrase that.  There is no bypass on the filtration system.  All the water that was designed to go into the filtration system, does.    





Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: hottubdan on April 02, 2008, 09:55:10 am
Quote

I guess we are getting into symantics at this point.  Sundance designed their spas so that the filtration system and the therapy system are separate.  Therefore, every day, 50000 gallons of water are passed through the filter, with no bypass.  Let me rephrase that.  There is no bypass on the filtration system.  All the water that was designed to go into the filtration system, does.    



Exactly!  Which means that the therapy system has no filtration.  As debris is introduced into the spa when you are in it with the jets on, it is circulated through the "therapy system" with no filtration.

All of the water that was designed to go into the filtration system does, true of all filtration systems.  And all of the water that is designed to not go through the filtration system also does so, in a unique way.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Steve on April 02, 2008, 05:25:57 pm
Most spas bypass the filter to some degree with the jet pumps on high. A big issue? Not really in the big scheme of things but HS positioned their marketing around no bypass. No different than Beachcomber's "Protec", Arctics insulation method, Bullfrogs jetpaks and the list goes on and on.

The beauty of it is that every potential consumer has differing opinions of what is important to them. The best story wins is all... ;)

Some couldn't imagine buying a spa that bypasses. Others realize that some spas have better circulation and filtering even with bypass in a 24 hour period but again, it's the brilliance of marketing right! It's no different than the hundreds of Beachcomber spas I sold where the consumer couldn't imagine buying a spa with 3 walls of insulation as opposed to our 4. It's a story and some just tell it better...

What about Arctic's positioning and marketing? One of the best IMO!! They did it different than anyone else and went up against the big boys and it worked. Full insulation? Are you NUTS? What if leaks? How do you get in there to fix it?
Absolutely brilliant marketing and one I wish I came up with.

There's some very good dealers here that have their stories down, no doubt at all. They believe they are the best and that's the way it should be! They bought the manufacturers story no questions and sell it the same way. They are passionate and passion sells. Sales is a transfer of enthusiasm and the rest... well.... how good is your story?

At the end of the day Mr and Mrs potential spa buyer, each spa filters very well, has good insulation properties and therapy. It's a shell of jets with hot water being pushed through it by a pump or 2... the rest.... marketing....

OMG... the secret is out! :o  ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: TubsAndCues on April 02, 2008, 06:12:04 pm
Quote

The beauty of it is that every potential consumer has differing opinions of what is important to them.

At the end of the day Mr and Mrs potential spa buyer, each spa filters very well, has good insulation properties and therapy.


You're right in that it's what matters most to the customer.  All cars go fast, look nice, are comfortable to sit in, and use gas.  The one you buy is determined by how fast you want to go, how nice you want it to look, how well if fits you and your family and how efficient it is on gas.  If you can find the one that's perfect for you and in your price range, you're golden.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 02, 2008, 06:27:59 pm
Quote
Most spas bypass the filter to some degree with the jet pumps on high. A big issue? Not really in the big scheme of things but HS positioned their marketing around no bypass. No different than Beachcomber's "Protec", Arctics insulation method, Bullfrogs jetpaks and the list goes on and on.

The beauty of it is that every potential consumer has differing opinions of what is important to them. The best story wins is all... ;)

Some couldn't imagine buying a spa that bypasses. Others realize that some spas have better circulation and filtering even with bypass in a 24 hour period but again, it's the brilliance of marketing right! It's no different than the hundreds of Beachcomber spas I sold where the consumer couldn't imagine buying a spa with 3 walls of insulation as opposed to our 4. It's a story and some just tell it better...

What about Arctic's positioning and marketing? One of the best IMO!! They did it different than anyone else and went up against the big boys and it worked. Full insulation? Are you NUTS? What if leaks? How do you get in there to fix it?
Absolutely brilliant marketing and one I wish I came up with.

There's some very good dealers here that have their stories down, no doubt at all. They believe they are the best and that's the way it should be! They bought the manufacturers story no questions and sell it the same way. They are passionate and passion sells. Sales is a transfer of enthusiasm and the rest... well.... how good is your story?

At the end of the day Mr and Mrs potential spa buyer, each spa filters very well, has good insulation properties and therapy. It's a shell of jets with hot water being pushed through it by a pump or 2... the rest.... marketing....

OMG... the secret is out! :o  ;)


(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/f8f2f617.jpg)

 Very well said!!!
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Steve on April 02, 2008, 10:41:04 pm
Are you implying that I was on my soap box while typing that JJ? :o

I thought it was one of my more coherent posts... ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 03, 2008, 12:37:43 pm
Steve,

I agree with your previous post - it's about what matters to the customer.

The one point I have mild dispute with is about Artic's marketing.  They do have a brilliant marketing idea, best use of the thermal pane concept I've seen yet (IMO), and it's working great for them from every piece of info I can find.

The mild dispute is in them coming up with the "anti-leak" marketing first.  Other brands have also done this for quite a while (even our locally made brand here - they're over 20 years old and have never been full foam).  Like the use of synthetic frames, this is the proverbial "chicken and the egg".

They do the BEST job with the marketing.  That shows.

From my research it also looks like they have one of (if not the) best thermal pane designs - no doubt that adds to the success of the marketing (just like HS and the no-bypass design).
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 03, 2008, 12:44:05 pm
"The mild dispute is in them coming up with the "anti-leak" marketing first.  Other brands have also done this for quite a while (even our locally made brand here - they're over 20 years old and have never been full foam).  Like the use of synthetic frames, this is the proverbial "chicken and the egg"."



huh?
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 03, 2008, 12:44:27 pm
Quote
Are you implying that I was on my soap box while typing that JJ? :o

I thought it was one of my more coherent posts... ;)


  No it was me on the soap box, in other words, I liked what you had to say!!
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Water Boy on April 03, 2008, 12:51:24 pm
Quote

The mild dispute is in them coming up with the "anti-leak" marketing first.  Other brands have also done this for quite a while (even our locally made brand here - they're over 20 years old and have never been full foam).  Like the use of synthetic frames, this is the proverbial "chicken and the egg".

quote]


(http://www.scurvoriginalz.com/image/16973789.jpg)

What you talkin about Willis?????
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 03, 2008, 12:56:07 pm
goarctic,

Not a slam.  If you think so, re-read the post.  My opinion is that Arctic is doing the best job with a concept of selling that existed before Arctic Spas did.

To clarify:  I think Arctic's success is not due to a brand-new idea.  I believe that the success of the thermal pane is more from doing it so effectively, than from coming up with a completely new technology.

"chicken and the egg" - as in which came first.  It's a metaphor for things which are virtually impossible to discern what came first.  Surprised you've never heard that one before, it's "older than dirt".

Hope I didn't offend you.  Nothing negative was meant in my post - more of a "give Arctic credit for more than just marketing".
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Water Boy on April 03, 2008, 12:56:31 pm
Arctic Spas have never used a "anti leak" marketing first. I don't even know what you are talking about Bauer??
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 03, 2008, 12:58:40 pm
Quote
goarctic,

Not a slam.  If you think so, re-read the post.  My opinion is that Arctic is doing the best job with a concept of selling that existed before Arctic Spas did.

To clarify:  I think Arctic's success is not due to a brand-new idea.  I believe that the success of the thermal pane is more from doing it so effectively, than from coming up with a completely new technology.

"chicken and the egg" - as in which came first.  It's a metaphor for things which are virtually impossible to discern what came first.  Surprised you've never heard that one before, it's "older than dirt".

Hope I didn't offend you.  Nothing negative was meant in my post - more of a "give Arctic credit for more than just marketing".


No problem just looking for a little clarification is all.  I appreciate the response.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 03, 2008, 01:02:07 pm
Quote
What about Arctic's positioning and marketing? One of the best IMO!! They did it different than anyone else and went up against the big boys and it worked. Full insulation? Are you NUTS? What if leaks? How do you get in there to fix it?
Absolutely brilliant marketing and one I wish I came up with.


Guys,

Easy, it was just a response to this portion of this post.

Like I posted before, I think you're success as a brand comes from the product more than the marketing.

If you think I'm wrong about that, feel free to correct me, as I have yet to market or sell Arctic Spas.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Water Boy on April 03, 2008, 01:04:47 pm
No problem Bauer, I see your point now. I wasnt sure what you meant with the antileak thing, but now I do. Thanks for the reply!! :)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spatech_tuo on April 03, 2008, 01:08:09 pm
Quote
goarctic,


"chicken and the egg" - as in which came first.  It's a metaphor for things which are virtually impossible to discern what came first.  Surprised you've never heard that one before, it's "older than dirt".

 

Elementary my dear Watson!!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/26/chicken.egg/
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 03, 2008, 01:13:02 pm
Now I just have to wait for Steve to rebuke me for commenting on his post....

 :-X
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 03, 2008, 01:16:22 pm
Quote

Elementary my dear Watson!!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/26/chicken.egg/


NO WAY   ;D

Nice...

Next time I'm stumped with something, I'm asking you.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Steve on April 03, 2008, 03:26:34 pm
Quote
Now I just have to wait for Steve to rebuke me for commenting on his post....

 :-X

Now now Bauer... don't be sensitive! ;D

It's all good. I certainly didn't imply that Arctic "started" the no-leak sales pitch, rather, they just perfected it and positioned themselves against the big players based largely on that concept. Thanks for clarifying that for me!  ;)  If you want to stand out, do something different rather than trying to fit in to the "more insulation, the more efficient your spa will be" sales approach of all the full foam major players in the industry. That in itself was brilliant and continues to be!

No one is slamming anyone here. It's an observation on the unique selling positions of a given manufacturer and how it may or may not appeal to consumers based on THEIR value.

It's a good thread!

Steve
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Gomboman on April 05, 2008, 03:35:39 pm
Assuming everything is equal between two spas, (same pumps, number of jets etc.) will the bypass spa typically have greater jet pressure compared to the no bypass spa?  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 05, 2008, 04:57:16 pm
If everything is truly equal, that includes the inflow to the pump - so, the pressures would be equal.

If the filters are not cared for (a sin in any spa), then the no-bypass system would lose more power (due to restricted flow).  I don't see this as a flaw in the system - because it is caused by operator error.
(Or...as we used to say in heavy construction...a "loose nut behind the wheel".)

So...
if you care for either spa (all things equal) - the jet pressures will be equal.

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: In Canada eh on April 06, 2008, 07:25:23 am
Quote

Elementary my dear Watson!!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/26/chicken.egg/


This was done in 2006?

I should get credit for it then!!!  I did a philosophy paper on this argument in university in 1984.  

Basically came down to the same answer.  Since the egg is a potential chicken and potentiality preceeds actuality the egg had to have come first.

Easy answer, the only thing was, that I had to drag it out to 1000 words :P
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spatech_tuo on April 06, 2008, 12:28:07 pm
Quote


This was done in 2006?

I should get credit for it then!!!  I did a philosophy paper on this argument in university in 1984.  

Basically came down to the same answer.  Since the egg is a potential chicken and potentiality preceeds actuality the egg had to have come first.

Easy answer, the only thing was, that I had to drag it out to 1000 words :P

It was PUBLISHED in 2006. It was envisioned long before then. In fact I wrote a thesis paper on it in first grade, 1971, so you were just repeating it by 1984.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: In Canada eh on April 06, 2008, 12:35:29 pm
Quote

It was PUBLISHED in 2006. It was envisioned long before then. In fact I wrote a thesis paper on it in first grade, 1971, so you were just repeating it by 1984.



First grade!!!! Darn it ;)

I guess they really isn't such a thing as a original idea
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on April 06, 2008, 07:02:36 pm
For me its as simple as God created the chicken and then it laid an egg.
~Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spatech_tuo on April 06, 2008, 07:36:01 pm
Quote
For me its as simple as God created the chicken and then it laid an egg.
~Fred

Maybe God created the egg and a chicken hatched from it?
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on April 06, 2008, 07:45:09 pm
Who would have cared for it to grow up?
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Bonibelle on April 06, 2008, 11:04:12 pm
So you guys are saying suddenly a fertilized chicken egg appeared and hatched into the first chicken? That would mean that statistically there would have had to be many fertilized chicken eggs that suddenly hatched at the same or relatively same time(chickens don't have real long life spans)...If only one egg hatched...there would not be more eggs or chickens...If many eggs hatched and they were all female, again there wouldn't be any more chickens...same if all male chickens hatched from those eggs...

So it is logical that there was not a chicken first...there were chicken(s) and they produced fertile eggs that resulted in flocks of chickens...Yep, that's how it happened..the end ;D ;D
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Micah on April 07, 2008, 01:09:21 am
I think this link is overdue to be transfered to "Beating a dead horse"...or chicken...or whatever...it just needs to go away
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: windsurfdog on April 07, 2008, 04:27:17 pm
[size=12]
All right...no "choking the chicken" jokes... 8-)
[/b][/size]
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on April 08, 2008, 07:27:45 pm
Before this does go away....

Since we were the ones Spiderman was talking about when he first started this thread I though I might give some observations on the original subject.

We started our hot tub search completely ignorant of the industry.  My wife wanted one, I only wanted one because I knew she did.  (Now I think I'm more excited then she is) Since that very first day we walked through Spiderman's store we have come a long way in our knowledge of the tubs and the industry.  We've traveled over 700 miles, visited over a dozen stores and got wet a number of times.  While we are not experts at this point we are certainly not "Newbies" anymore.

Having said all of the that here's my take on the 100% filtration.  First of all, Hotsprings has a great marketing tool with the 100% filtration.  However, I really believe the best advise we got was that we should pick a tub from a major manufacturer that we really like and the filtration will not be an issue.  In other words, if the tub is a quality tub and we take care of the water we'll be doing good.

Secondly,  the more tubs we tested (Jacuzzis/Hot Springs) the more it seemed that the Jucazzi's had more power to them.  I'm starting to be convinced that part of the reason is because there is a bypass.  I don't know if this is fact or not but it sure seems like it.  When we sat in the Grandee we could not run all of the jets in all of the seats and have the motos going.  There were times the moto was on (we could feel the water) but not moving.  We did find a combination where each seat was utilizing jets but the moto seats then didn't have the shoulder jets going.  On the other hand, the J480 gets all the jets going...and is easily diverted to really blow you away.  This is just my opinion based only on short times in wet tubs, but it seems to me that the bypass pumps help to supply more power to the jets because they don't have to go through the filter.

Thirdly, I wonder about the fact that there are no in-takes at the bottom of the pool on the Hotspring tubs.  How does the dirt/sand that tends to settle get removed?  Perhaps the water gets swirling enough to lift it into the skimmer filter area, perhaps not.  I don't know its just a thought.

And lastly, Hotsprings is pretty excited about their new limelight line.  It's a good looking tub and has jets that remind me of the RX jets we love on the J480.  Spiderman has one filled and we might end up trying it just to be able to help them compare to other tubs.  Here's my point though.  It may be an awesome tub.....but there is no 100% filtration on it.  All of a sudden that "can't do without" marketing tool doesn't matter anymore.  Please don't get me wrong, the Hotsprings was our second choice and we were a refusal of our offer on the Jacuzzi away from buying a Grandee.  I think that much of the dealer and the product.  But after much time and research I have come to the conclusion that as far as a purchasing decision on 100 % filtration, it was (for us) an non-factor.

BTW...it's snowing, we may never get our deck built.

Thanks,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spiderman on April 09, 2008, 11:24:46 am
Congrats on finding a spa you love!  You guys did it the right way.  As far as your question about the Grandee, it sounds like the comfort control knobs, on the bartop, were not turned up all the way, or the diverter valves were not positioned correctly.  If the moto massage jets aren't getting enough air, they will not move up and down.  

Dirt and such in the footwell is easily removed with a spa vac.  With by-pass fittings, I'm guessing the dirt etc. will keep circulating through the pumps, heater and jets until you spa vac it out.  Stay in touch and let us know if we can do anything else for you guys.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 09, 2008, 11:42:19 am
What's even worse than dirt and hair getting sucked into the pump, heater, plumbing, etc is pine needles.  We're located in the Piney Woods area of Texas and pine needles are all over the place.

Out on my deck at the store is a Solana SX spa.  It is typical of other spas in that it has bypass filtration.  I noticed that there are several pine needles sticking out of the bypass fitting in the bottom and it got me to wondering just how many now reside inside the spa's guts.

Anyways, to make a long story end happily, it was a great visual tool to explain to folks the difference in the two filtration options.  It made enough difference yesterday that one guy bought a HS Vista, one bought a HS Grandee, one family bought a HS Vanguard, one lady ordered a HS Prodigy, and another couple bought a HS Jetsetter.  

All of those spas have 100% No-bypass filtration and they felt that it was a very important feature to insure that they don't get all those pine needles in their spa's internals.

It made great sense to them to filter all the water, especially around here with all those pine needles....and fire ants! :)

Terminator (Gotta go deposit some checks!)  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on April 09, 2008, 12:34:34 pm
J480 manual page 42... "Large debris are filtered when either jets pump is running when the spa is in use or during a programmed filter cycle.  These pumps draw water from the footwell suction fitting and through a secondary water polishing filter bag.  The exclusive footwell 'sweeper" suction fitting enhances filtration in the footwell area by creating a "swirling" water motion to mazimize particle agitation and pickup."

The suction in the bottom of the tub is filtered through a bag in the filter compartment.  I'm thinking the dirt, needles and fire ants won't be running through the pumps, heater and jets after all.

Thanks,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 09, 2008, 01:02:44 pm
Quote
J480 manual page 42... "Large debris are filtered when either jets pump is running when the spa is in use or during a programmed filter cycle.

"Either" not "Both"...two different things.  Even Jacuzzi Jim admitted as much.

Close, but no cigar.

On the other hand... ;)

http://easttexasspa.dyndns.org/app/main_admin.asp

Login: guest
Password: hotspring
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 09, 2008, 01:03:05 pm
"Anyways, to make a long story end happily, it was a great visual tool to explain to folks the difference in the two filtration options.  It made enough difference yesterday that one guy bought a HS Vista, one bought a HS Grandee, one family bought a HS Vanguard, one lady ordered a HS Prodigy, and another couple bought a HS Jetsetter. "


sweet, great job termie.  That sounds so good I almost believe it!
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 09, 2008, 01:10:30 pm
Quick story! We had a couple of carney's get in a J-470 at the fair a year back, I opened the spa and the water looked fine, but their was a lot of sand/dirt in the btm of the spa and a beer can.   We ran pump 2 which flows through the bag filter and with in an hour it was 90% gone and all deposited in the polishing bag which will hold close to 8 lbs of sand/grit, it didn't suck the beer can through though.  ;D
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spatech_tuo on April 09, 2008, 01:15:52 pm
Quote
Quick story! We had a couple of carney's get in a J-470 at the fair a year back, I opened the spa and the water looked fine, but their was a lot of sand/dirt in the btm of the spa and a beer can.   We ran pump 2 which flows through the bag filter and with in an hour it was 90% gone and all deposited in the polishing bag which will hold close to 8 lbs of sand/grit, it didn't suck the beer can through though.  ;D

Any loose teeth in the bag?
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 09, 2008, 01:23:25 pm
Quote

Any loose teeth in the bag?


 The carney's I saw when setting up, didn't have any teeth!

  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 09, 2008, 01:36:03 pm
Quote
sweet, great job termie.  That sounds so good I almost believe it!

I daresay I have more credibility than ANYONE on this forum.  Anybody can tune into my store 24/7 and see what goes on.

What part do you find hard to believe?

Terminator
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 09, 2008, 02:05:56 pm
Ya know, on the subject of pine needles...

I live and work (on spas) in Western Montana.  If you know anything about this area, and our forests, enough said.

I've worked on quite a few old spas, not all of them Watkins.
Pine needles in the "guts" (heater, pumps, etc.) has yet to be a problem I encounter.  

I've had to pull numerous items out of pumps and plumbing, due to filters being left out.  But have never had an issue with ANYTHING coming through the suction fittings.

I always gave my customers (our 2 brands or otherwise) credit for having the intelligence (more like common sense) to be able to remove sand, grit, pine needles, etc. from their spas.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 09, 2008, 02:09:32 pm
Quote

I daresay I have more credibility than ANYONE on this forum.  Anybody can tune into my store 24/7 and see what goes on.

What part do you find hard to believe?

Terminator


"if you want to discuss credibility, discuss page 2 of Arctics warranty then pop off"

Did you delete this previous sentence from your post for any particular reason?  Also, our warranty is readily available online at arcticspas.com.  Its one of the best in the industry.  I also question what you really know about Arctic spas, since they arent one of your competitors.  I do appreciate your negativity.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 09, 2008, 02:25:08 pm
Lets get ready to RUUUUUMBLE!!

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/popcorn.gif)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Bonibelle on April 09, 2008, 02:41:21 pm
So Jim, I am curious, is that polishing bag something that the spa owner would empty occasionally, or would it be emptied by a service person in the event of a problem?

I know sometimes I get grit in the bottom of my spa and if I forget to take the turkey baster out to suck it up, it mysteriously disappears on it's own..so it must somehow make it's way to my filters.

I have large ash trees around my house and if I leave the cover off my spa to shock, I occasionally get a few of those seed flyers in the tub..It has never been a problem as they quickly end up in the filters if I don't grab them out.

What could happen if they, by virtue of a by-pass, zipped through my pump and heater? Just wondering in the worst possible case, what would/could happen?

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 09, 2008, 02:55:45 pm
Quote
So Jim, I am curious, is that polishing bag something that the spa owner would empty occasionally, or would it be emptied by a service person in the event of a problem?

I know sometimes I get grit in the bottom of my spa and if I forget to take the turkey baster out to suck it up, it mysteriously disappears on it's own..so it must somehow make it's way to my filters.

I have large ash trees around my house and if I leave the cover off my spa to shock, I occasionally get a few of those seed flyers in the tub..It has never been a problem as they quickly end up in the filters if I don't grab them out.

What could happen if they, by virtue of a by-pass, zipped through my pump and heater? Just wondering in the worst possible case, what would/could happen?



 Yes the bag can be easily removed and cleaned out by the spa owner, they suggest replacing every 6 months the run about 15 bucks or so.  I have seen them go much longer.  

 As far as your situation, the worst that could happen is the stuff could clog your heater eventually, however most if not all systems regardless of price of spa always have a filter before the heater.  Most pumps should be able to chew just about any needle/leaf type stuff up and be filtered out by water turn over.   Which really is the gray area with by-pass and no by-pass filtration.

 For me no by-pass filtration is not a big deal, is it a cool deal and a great marketing tool, sure, but it doesn't make a difference if your water chemistry is not maintained.   If it did I would say Hot springs should stop selling chemicals at least sanitizer anyway.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on April 09, 2008, 05:46:38 pm
The point I was trying to make is that as long as you are looking at tubs that are made by one of the top manufacturers,  find the tub that fits you best and buy it.  Because on any of those (quality built tubs) the filtration systems along with good chemical maintainence will leave you with clean, quality water.  If this is not true then the Hotspring dealers should put a disclosure on the other tubs they sell (limelight and so on) that these tubs will be unable to keep water clean.

This is simply my humble opinion.  I respect and admire the fact that all of the dealers on this website are passionate about what they sell.  It tells me you are proud of what you sell, I appreciate that in all of you.

Thanks,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Spatech_tuo on April 09, 2008, 05:59:20 pm
Quote
The point I was trying to make is that as long as you are looking at tubs that are made by one of the top manufacturers,  find the tub that fits you best and buy it.  

Sounds like a plan.

Quote
If this is not true then the Hotspring dealers should put a disclosure on the other tubs they sell (limelight and so on) that these tubs will be unable to keep water clean.  

But the Limelight is meant to be the second banana to the Hot Spring so a dealer can say "The Hot Spring brand is our top of the line product but if you're looking to spend a little less but still want a lot of featues we have the Limelight over here ...".
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on April 09, 2008, 06:21:48 pm
I understand that.  Really though aren't you going tell them that water will be clean and they will still be able to enjoy the tub......because it fits them....Their budget, their body type and all their other senses.  Come on now...it will stay clean right?

Thanks Spatech.  Iv'e really learned alot from this site and from you.  And I do believe you sold all those tubs.  There is now doubt because you believe in what you sell.  I respect that.

In His Peace,
Fred
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 09, 2008, 06:25:06 pm
Quote
If this is not true then the Hotspring dealers should put a disclosure on the other tubs they sell (limelight and so on) that these tubs will be unable to keep water clean.

You're getting closer....

I show folks the HotSpring, answer their questions, tell them the advantages of owning one and of doing business with us, and then I take them to the mood room and show them the Limelight.  I point out the bypass valves (3 of them! :P) and ask if any of the other spa peddlers have told them what they do (the answers range from "underwater speakers" to "foot suction massagers" ;D), and then I explain EXACTLY what their function is: they simply bypass the filters.  That's it.

The rest is up to them.

Some of them ask if the Limelight will keep the water clean...I tell them it cleans as well as any of the other spas.

Whatever is important to the customers will win out, as it always should.  I show them both sides of the aisle.

Gotta go, 2 good lookig gals are here shopping!

Terminator
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Saved by Grace on April 09, 2008, 06:28:05 pm
Great approach....  Go get um...
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Steve on April 09, 2008, 06:56:03 pm
Quote
The point I was trying to make is that as long as you are looking at tubs that are made by one of the top manufacturers,  find the tub that fits you best and buy it.  Because on any of those (quality built tubs) the filtration systems along with good chemical maintainence will leave you with clean, quality water.  If this is not true then the Hotspring dealers should put a disclosure on the other tubs they sell (limelight and so on) that these tubs will be unable to keep water clean.

This is simply my humble opinion.  I respect and admire the fact that all of the dealers on this website are passionate about what they sell.  It tells me you are proud of what you sell, I appreciate that in all of you.

Thanks,
Fred

Spoken like a seasoned spa pro!  ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 09, 2008, 09:53:37 pm
Quote

You're getting closer....

I show folks the HotSpring, answer their questions, tell them the advantages of owning one and of doing business with us, and then I take them to the mood room and show them the Limelight.  I point out the bypass valves (3 of them! :P) and ask if any of the other spa peddlers have told them what they do (the answers range from "underwater speakers" to "foot suction massagers" ;D), and then I explain EXACTLY what their function is: they simply bypass the filters.  That's it.

The rest is up to them.

Some of them ask if the Limelight will keep the water clean...I tell them it cleans as well as any of the other spas.

Whatever is important to the customers will win out, as it always should.  I show them both sides of the aisle.

Gotta go, 2 good lookig gals are here shopping!

Terminator


kind of like telling everyone about the one page warranty for "hot springs" which I will add is true.  But then when the customer gets their "hot springs" delivered and upon opening up their owners manual it shows all the exclusions of the warranty towards the back listed under the headings of "acts invalidating warranty", and "disclaimers".  Im not implying this is any different than other manufacturers, just stating the other manufacturers dont tout a one page warranty either.

http://www.hotspring.com/cgi-bin/download.cgi?c=3&f=pdfs/OwnersManual_2008.pdf
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Water Boy on April 09, 2008, 11:22:32 pm
Interesting...

It says in there:
"damage to components or spa surface caused by improper water chemistry maintenance" invalidates the warranty.

Is the no fault heater not considered as one of the components? Or if the heater goes out due to improper water chemistry maintenance, is it not covered?? I am asking this as a serious question. :-?
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: hottubdan on April 09, 2008, 11:29:12 pm
Quote
Interesting...

It says in there:
"damage to components or spa surface caused by improper water chemistry maintenance" invalidates the warranty.

Is the no fault heater not considered as one of the components? Or if the heater goes out due to improper water chemistry maintenance, is it not covered?? I am asking this as a serious question. :-?

The heater is covered, no questions asked, for 5 years.  Period.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Steve on April 10, 2008, 12:01:37 am
Is there a dealer on here that has not provided warranty service due to " improper watercare" to one of their customers?

I find this one aspect of warranties (notice I didn't say GUARANTEES) to be far too broad of a loophole totally designed to protect the manufacturer. My issue is that 99% of spa owners either aren't shown HOW to properly care for their water or just don't do everything they should be from a manufacturers view.

The reality is that dealers could negate virtually every claim under this gaping disclaimer if they so chose to do so.

I don't believe any reputable dealer would exercise this part of their warranty to not provide service to a customer. Simply put, a large part of the onus is actually ON the dealer to educate their customers. I understand dealers can't baby-sit their customers but if the spa is THAT bad that a dealer won't provide warranty service, it was more than just a misunderstanding during the teaching of watercare. If there wasn’t basic watercare knowledge provided to the consumer, again, the dealer is partially responsible IMO.

I don’t know of a manufacturer that doesn’t have this written into their warranty but that’s just lawyereze. The decision lays with the individual dealer. I know it’s something I would NEVER do (and I never have in 10 years) to one of my customers… But then again, we were in business for 24 years and wanted to be for another 24…


Steve
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 10, 2008, 11:07:16 am
Quote
Is there a dealer on here that has not provided warranty service due to " improper watercare" to one of their customers?

I find this one aspect of warranties (notice I didn't say GUARANTEES) to be far too broad of a loophole totally designed to protect the manufacturer. My issue is that 99% of spa owners either aren't shown HOW to properly care for their water or just don't do everything they should be from a manufacturers view.

The reality is that dealers could negate virtually every claim under this gaping disclaimer if they so chose to do so.

I don't believe any reputable dealer would exercise this part of their warranty to not provide service to a customer. Simply put, a large part of the onus is actually ON the dealer to educate their customers. I understand dealers can't baby-sit their customers but if the spa is THAT bad that a dealer won't provide warranty service, it was more than just a misunderstanding during the teaching of watercare. If there wasn’t basic watercare knowledge provided to the consumer, again, the dealer is partially responsible IMO.

I don’t know of a manufacturer that doesn’t have this written into their warranty but that’s just lawyereze. The decision lays with the individual dealer. I know it’s something I would NEVER do (and I never have in 10 years) to one of my customers… But then again, we were in business for 24 years and wanted to be for another 24…

Steve

I dont disagree Steve,

This does seem like a large loophole, but it has a purpose.  If I were the manufacturer, and one of your customers left his tub untended for months, and due to that had major problems, is it still a warranty issue, or is it neglect on the part of the owner?  Being in business for 24 years you may not have seen this happen, but I would be willing to guess that a manufacturer that is producing 5000+ spas per year has seen this more than once.  Look at a ladder or a hair dryer, there are enough warnings on them to keep you reading for a while.  These were all driven by legal action against the manufacturer or someones belief that it was a potential risk and needed to be on there to reduce liability.  

[glow]***If you stand above the second rung of our ladder, changing a light bulb, and do not have 3 people holding the ladder while you do it, we are not responsible for your accident, and we are not responsible for your not reading this warning...***[/glow] ::)

A much more expensive mistake that people make is voiding their auto warranty by not getting routine maintenance done on their car.  Its not common, and some dealers may never see a car come in where this is the case, but I guarantee that the manufacturer has seen it plenty of times.  Auto warranties have the same loophole for intentional misuse or neglect, as do warranties on just about any product I can think of, ignorance is not an excuse.  I had a co-worker years ago that did not get the oil changed on the company vehicle for 9-10K miles, it was a brand new car, the engine was ruined, not covered under warranty due to neglect, and our company had to pay the repair bill.

I do believe that most manufacturers that are trustworthy will do whatever they can to assist a customer that has a warranty issue, but there are limits to the warranty, and if they are not spelled out you cannot enforce them.  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 10, 2008, 11:28:42 am
Quote

"""Edited for purpose"""

Did you delete this previous sentence from your post for any particular reason?  """Edited for Purpose"""  I do appreciate your negativity.

Some on the board seem quite touchy, if he deleted it, it was probably that he felt it was the wrong thing to say and removed it, so rather than let it go you keep it alive?  It would appear that he tried to retract the statement and did so in less than 30 minutes.  Pretty fast.

Cant you spa guys just get along????
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 10, 2008, 12:16:17 pm
Quote
http://www.hotspring.com/cgi-bin/download.cgi?c=3&f=pdfs/OwnersManual_2008.pdf

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/doh.jpg)

I did not realize that HotSpring did that and I think it sucks!

I apologize.

Term


Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 10, 2008, 01:26:19 pm
Quote

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/doh.jpg)

I did not realize that HotSpring did that and I think it sucks!

I apologize.

Term



No problem, I just couldnt believe that Hot Springs didnt have disclaimers somewhere in their literature.  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Chas on April 10, 2008, 08:43:48 pm
Quote
just couldn't believe that Hot Spring didn't have disclaimers somewhere in their literature.
I have been handing out full copies of the Watkins Warranty for the 22 years I have been doing this. It is in the brochure, and it is complete with every word.

 8-)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Steve on April 11, 2008, 12:18:40 am
I don't understand the shock here? Is there a spa manufacturer on this planet that doesn't have those same disclaimers?  :-?
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Repeat_Offender on April 11, 2008, 07:24:14 am
Egads! Say it ain't so!! Next thing you know someone will be telling us Texas has a wh*re-house in it!!! (Lord have mercy on our souls...)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 10:16:43 am
Quote
I have been handing out full copies of the Watkins Warranty for the 22 years I have been doing this. It is in the brochure, and it is complete with every word.

 8-)


The only reason I brought it up was because people here were claiming "hot springs" had a no hassle one page warranty with no disclaimers.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 11, 2008, 01:06:05 pm
Looking at the [glow]Watkins Disclaimer[/glow], I dont see anything in here that I have not been told in a store.  

The warranty may be void if, improperly installed, altered, misused or abused, or repairs attempted by non authorized service person.  Letting it get too hot or cold, leaving it uncovered without water in it, use of harsh chemicals not approved by the mfg, water chemistry maintenance.  Leave the covere off while the spa is empty causing heat distress.

Not covering rodent dmg....  And non residential use.  I think that about covers it.  Nothing to be concerned about here in my opinion.


Now the [glow]Arctic[/glow] one has a few more "items" in it, like the Pump Shaft Seal neglect clause, I dont know how hard it is to detect a pump shaft seal failure, but if it leaks and damages other components, they may not be covered.  Not to mention a noisy pump is not a warranty item.

Union connection leaks are considered to be user serviceable and are not covered under warranty service, and any damage from these leaks are not covered under warranty.
 
[glow]Final part, kinda interesting,  Arctic spas warranties are limited to a maximum amount of moneys received by Arctic Spa with respect to the sale of the spa.[/glow]   :-?   Does this mean profit, or total transaction?  Wouldnt this need to say, 5 years or untill you use up the money, whichever comes first?

I also found it interesting that the warranty says that any damage caused by insufficiently prepared ground, or moving the spa, is not covered, and I thought the forever floor allowed it to be installed anywhere (not talking about level ground), in fact the website says as much.

From the Arctic site
Quote
It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks! Just set it on the ground, hook it up, fill and use...installation has never been easier and your floor will last forever in any conditions. In addition, your portable spa is now truly portable. If you move spa locations in your yard or if you move across town, the foundation comes with you.

So you cannot move it, or can you?  I understand if I damage it its my fault, but is it ok to move it?   Set it on the ground, or prepared ground?   :question

The Cedar Cabinet is excluded from the warranty.

Damage caused by not using the cover while the spa is unattended.

I sell high end cars for a living.  I have read enough to see that both companies make a good product.  But there are Too many Disclaimers for Arctic in my opinion...  I am not a DIY person...  Thanks for making me do this homework...
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 01:49:12 pm
First of all I have a "few" issues with your novel.

1."Now the Arctic one has a few more "items" in it, like the Pump Shaft Seal neglect clause, I dont know how hard it is to detect a pump shaft seal failure, but if it leaks and damages other components, they may not be covered.  Not to mention a noisy pump is not a warranty item. "  Water chemistry maintenance which is how its described by Watkins, would imply what Arctic has spelled out here.  Improper water maintenance ruins pump seals.  And by the way its VERY easy to figure that out.  


2."Final part, kinda interesting,  Arctic spas warranties are limited to a maximum amount of moneys received by Arctic Spa with respect to the sale of the spa.      Does this mean profit, or total transaction?  Wouldnt this need to say, 5 years or untill you use up the money, whichever comes first? "

Ill insert a link to the Arctic Warranty, I have read it several times and have yet to interpret this.  http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/warranty/Arctic%20Spas%20Warranty%20English.pdf

3. "So you cannot move it, or can you?  I understand if I damage it its my fault, but is it ok to move it?   Set it on the ground, or prepared ground?"  

Yes you can move it, thats the great thing about the fiberglass floor it can always be moved without worry of the floor falling off.  They are just saying that you can ram your truck into the floor of the spa while moving it and expect it to be under warranty.

All I was trying to prove with bringing up the Hot Springs disclaimers is that all warranties have disclaimers.  Some on here were implying that Hot Springs didnt operate that way.  

I wasnt trying to say that Arctic has the best warranty in the industry, all these disclaimers are much of the same.  Different wording is all.  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Water Boy on April 11, 2008, 02:36:59 pm
Quote
 

I wasnt trying to say that Arctic has the best warranty in the industry, all these disclaimers are much of the same.  Different wording is all.  

And location. What goarctic was saying is that the disclaimers that bubbagump talked about are found in the Arctic warranty. The disclaimers from hot springs he was talking about are not located in the warratny, they are located in the owners manual. He was also implying, as did Steve, that all companies use these generic disclaimers in their warranties.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 11, 2008, 02:50:46 pm
Quote
I wasnt trying to say that Arctic has the best warranty in the industry, all these disclaimers are much of the same.  Different wording is all.

Fair enough...  You guys are the experts not I.

I do have a few questions.  1. If the Pump Shaft seal neglect clause was in direct relation to water care, why dont they say that?  What I read is that the seal is under warranty.  But if the seal leaks, any damage that it causes is not under warranty.  It does not say if it leaks due to poor water chemistry.

2. Also, you say that you have yet to interpret the maximum payout of the warranty, it seems pretty clear to me that they have a set cap on what they will pay in lifetime warranty work on any one specific tub.  I would like to hear more of what you think after you digest it.

And in part 3.  If you install my tub and it is on the ground as the web describes, how do they determine if it was the grounds fault for failure, and does that not negate the forever floor advantage of just "set it anywhere that is level?"  
Saying that the warranty considers insufficiently prepared ground (not talking about level here) abuse.  So my question is, if the ground is level, what does insufficiently prepared mean?  The reason I ask this specifically, is that this feature could save me at least one thousand dollars in a concrete pad or deck to set anyone elses spa, but it appears that it could be used to void my warranty...

I am looking at the limited warranty from Watkins, and it has the limitations and disclaimers listed on it in the brochure.  Not sure why anyone would say that there are none listed, and I dont see any post, admitedly in this thread, were anyone said that there are no disclaimers in the Watkins warranty, again its in the brochure that I picked up at the store.

I wasnt trying to say anything about Arctic or Watkins other than that I am looking for a tub, and the issue was brought up.  Upon doing my homework, I have many more questions about your disclaimers than Watkins.  

Again, thanks for making me do my homework.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 03:03:22 pm
"Also, you say that you have yet to interpret the maximum payout of the warranty, it seems pretty clear to me that they have a set cap on what they will pay in lifetime warranty work on any one specific tub.  I would like to hear more of what you think after you digest it. "

I have read the warranty several times and see no mention of a cap on the warranty.  As a dealer for over ten years this has never been brought to my attention, and it definetely doesnt say that in the warranty.

"Insufficiently prepared" means out of level.  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: tonyp on April 11, 2008, 03:25:16 pm
Quote
"Also, you say that you have yet to interpret the maximum payout of the warranty, it seems pretty clear to me that they have a set cap on what they will pay in lifetime warranty work on any one specific tub.  I would like to hear more of what you think after you digest it. "

I have read the warranty several times and see no mention of a cap on the warranty.  As a dealer for over ten years this has never been brought to my attention, and it definetely doesnt say that in the warranty.

"Insufficiently prepared" means out of level.  

I have absolutely no interest in this but just for kicks I read the warranty once and I see

"Arctic Spas® warranties are
limited to a maximum amount of moneys received by Arctic Spas® with respect to the sale of the spa."

And also if "Insufficiently prepared" means out of level then why state them separately .

"Any damage caused by moving of the spa or improper installation (including insufficiently prepared or unlevelled ground)"
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 11, 2008, 03:26:29 pm
Quote
"Also, you say that you have yet to interpret the maximum payout of the warranty, it seems pretty clear to me that they have a set cap on what they will pay in lifetime warranty work on any one specific tub.  I would like to hear more of what you think after you digest it. "

I have read the warranty several times and see no mention of a cap on the warranty.  As a dealer for over ten years this has never been brought to my attention, and it definetely doesnt say that in the warranty.

"Insufficiently prepared" means out of level.

Ok,  In the link you provided,  http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/warranty/Arctic%20Spas%20Warranty%20English.pdf
Page 2 Section Disclaimers, Last sentence.  
Quote
"Arcric Spas warranties are limited to a maximum amount of moneys received by Arctic Spas with respect to the sale of the spa."
 IMHO this is a cap.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

And if "Insufficiently prepared" means out of level, why say it?  It is stated in the warranty as "Insuffieiently prepared or unlevelled ground"  "Insufficiently prepared" is not necessary (as it is vague) if it means unleveled ground.  Is "insufficiently prepared" intentionally vague?  Because "Unlevelled Ground" is not vague.

Sorry if it seems I am coming at you, this is how I "roll"  and yours is the only brand that I have not had the opportunity to grill a sales person in a face to face meeting about.  So thanks for playing.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 11, 2008, 03:27:53 pm
Quote

I have absolutely no interest in this but just for kicks I read the warranty once and I see

"Arctic Spas® warranties are
limited to a maximum amount of moneys received by Arctic Spas® with respect to the sale of the spa."

And also if "Insufficiently prepared" means out of level then why state them separately .

"Any damage caused by moving of the spa or improper installation (including insufficiently prepared or unlevelled ground)"

HaHa..

My wife says I have a way of sucking people into my conversations...   ;D
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 03:42:16 pm
Quote

Ok,  In the link you provided,  http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/warranty/Arctic%20Spas%20Warranty%20English.pdf
Page 2 Section Disclaimers, Last sentence.  
 Â IMHO this is a cap.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

And if "Insufficiently prepared" means out of level, why say it?  It is stated in the warranty as "Insuffieiently prepared or unlevelled ground"  "Insufficiently prepared" is not necessary (as it is vague) if it means unleveled ground.  Is "insufficiently prepared" intentionally vague?  Because "Unlevelled Ground" is not vague.

Sorry if it seems I am coming at you, this is how I "roll"  and yours is the only brand that I have not had the opportunity to grill a sales person in a face to face meeting about.  So thanks for playing.


Your right, its in there.  But to my credit, I have been a dealer for over 10 years and sold many a spa and this issue has never come up.  I will also say that every consumer that walks in my door to ask about a new Arctic spa receives our FULL copy of warranty.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Merlin on April 11, 2008, 04:01:30 pm
This thread is great!

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: soak-king on April 11, 2008, 04:04:09 pm
Quote
First of all I have a "few" issues with your [glow]novel.[/glow]  

 :o  ::)  ;D

that shaft seal must be a touchy subject around the Artic camp
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Water Boy on April 11, 2008, 04:04:25 pm
Moral of the whole story:

Arctic Spas have a 5 year full warranty.
Hot Spring spas have a 5 year full warranty.

Two good companies offering good warranties. End of story! ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 04:09:03 pm
Quote

 :o  ::)  ;D

that shaft seal must be a touchy subject around the Artic camp


huh?  Not touchy on this end.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 04:21:41 pm
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/4r7pmrd.gif)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: soak-king on April 11, 2008, 04:32:52 pm
 Term, I think that is the most disturbingly hillarious clip I've seen in awhile. Thank you. ;D

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: soak-king on April 11, 2008, 04:37:55 pm
Quote
I have issues with your [size=14][glow]novel[/glow] [/size].  

Bubba did some research and you called his post a NOVEL. Seems a bit touchy to me.  ;)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 11, 2008, 04:42:46 pm
Quote
This thread is great!

Hey Merlin, do you think you can get Maverick to get his head back in the game.???  This is what he has been up to lately...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5883772879840922003


Get him back to his old form>????
http://www.gofish.com/player.gfp?gfid=30-1019564
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 04:46:26 pm
Quote
Term, I think that is the most disturbingly hillarious clip I've seen in awhile. Thank you. ;D

That was video taken of me back when I kept my hair long and wore MuMus...before I quit drinkin' whiskey. :-[

Term (MuMu Free)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 04:47:21 pm
Quote

Bubba did some research and you called his post a NOVEL. Seems a bit touchy to me.  ;)



I call a spade a spade. what can I say.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 04:56:08 pm
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/1182494128186-1.gif)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 04:59:11 pm
Quote
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/1182494128186-1.gif)


Great video, hilarious, I think I spit some beer up my nose.  
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 05:11:30 pm
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/1205150004013.gif)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Water Boy on April 11, 2008, 05:20:06 pm
I know I said end of story, but I had some free time after selling two spas this morning.

I did some homework as well, and after reading the post that goarctic posted about the hot springs owners manual, here is what I found:

http://www.hotspring.com/cgi-bin/download.cgi?c=3&f=pdfs/OwnersManual_2008.pdf

Arctic lists ALL of their disclaimers in their warranty. Everything that one needs to know about the warranty is clearly spelled out IN the warranty. This isnt true of the Hot Spring Warranty. In the HS owners manual,  there are many dos and don’ts listed that follow up with the words "not covered under warranty"

Why are those not disclosed under the warranty itself since some appear to be nitpicking warranties today. They are in fact listed in the attached owners manual all throughout if you take the time to read it too.

I will admit though that the two page Arctic warranty was a lot easier to read than thumbing through the Hot Springs 72 page owners manual to find the disclaimers.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 05:46:34 pm
Quote
I know I said end of story, but I had some free time after selling two spas this morning.

I sold two to two today, too! :D

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/43r001t.gif)
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BubbaGump on April 11, 2008, 05:47:47 pm
Quote
I know I said end of story, but I had some free time after selling two spas this morning.  Great News, I Sold a car today...

I did some homework as well, and after reading the post that goarctic posted about the hot springs owners manual, here is what I found:

http://www.hotspring.com/cgi-bin/download.cgi?c=3&f=pdfs/OwnersManual_2008.pdf

Arctic lists ALL of their disclaimers in their warranty. Everything that one needs to know about the warranty is clearly spelled out IN the warranty. This isnt true of the Hot Spring Warranty. In the HS owners manual,  there are many dos and don’ts listed that follow up with the words "not covered under warranty"   This really isnt about HS or Watkins for me, but if you have examples, I would like to read.

Why are those not disclosed under the warranty itself since some appear to be nitpicking warranties today. They are in fact listed in the attached owners manual all throughout if you take the time to read it too.  I am not nitpicking, I dont think, just asking questions about what I see in the Arctic Warranty.

I will admit though that the two page Arctic warranty was a lot easier to read than thumbing through the Hot Springs 72 page owners manual to find the disclaimers.
 You found disclaimers in all 72 pages???   :(

As I said earlier, I am sorry that I come across as harsh, it is the way I do things.  I dont pull any punches, and when the topic came up I started reading.   I am curious what you found in the Watkins owners manual that would surprise me.  It seems that everone has agreed that there is nothing in the Watkins warranty that is "out of the ordinary" for spa companies.  I have not reviewed the Arctic owners manual, is it available online?

As I also stated earlier the Forever Floor interests me because it could potentially save me a ton of money on other projects, I dont want to pour a concrete slab in my yard if I dont have to,  but it seems that the warranty is unclear on what is considered a suitable spot for placement.  It speaks to the level of the site but it also speaks to the fact that insufficiently prepared ground is something that can void the warranty.

Also, as stated earlier I am not DIY...  From the Arctic warranty, Union connection leaks are considered to be user serviceable and are not covered under warranty service, and any damage from these leaks are not covered under warranty.  So if it leaks, I have to fix it?

Quote
Page 2 Section Disclaimers, Last sentence.   Quote:
"Arcric Spas warranties are limited to a maximum amount of moneys received by Arctic Spas with respect to the sale of the spa."  IMHO this is a cap.
Can you explain this to me?  

Thanks,
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 06:02:31 pm
Im not waterboy but Ill take another shot.

"As I also stated earlier the Forever Floor interests me because it could potentially save me a ton of money on other projects, I dont want to pour a concrete slab in my yard if I dont have to,  but it seems that the warranty is unclear on what is considered a suitable spot for placement.  It speaks to the level of the site but it also speaks to the fact that insufficiently prepared ground is something that can void the warranty

The spa can be placed on any level solid surface.  Grass, gravel, dirt, concrete, supported wood deck. doesnt matter what type

I cant really explain the line about the capped warranty.  Like I said earlier I have delivered and service many a Arctic spa and sold arctics for a long time and had no clue about this.  I really think its a non-issue.  Maybe Tom can help with this one.


Dealers get no reimbursement for tightening up union connection leaks, as a dealer I have never charged a customer for going out to re-tighten a union.  It takes two seconds and is a rare occurrence.  Im sure most spa manufacturers are the same on this as well.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 06:03:46 pm
Quote

I sold two to two today, too! :D

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/43r001t.gif)


Wow, seven this week by my count!  Selling about 400 a year.  Not to shabby!
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 11, 2008, 06:08:55 pm
I would agree that the disclaimers in most warranties are relatively similar - just make sure you're comfortable with the disclaimers on the warranty you purchase.  

If you want a warranty with VERY few disclaimers - check out the Bullfrog "Blame Free" equipment warranty.  It is 2 years shorter than most high-end warranties - but I have yet to read on quite as comprehensive.  You can find the warranty in detail on the Bullfrog site.

Ultimately, I would say the dealer providing your warranty service is a more important factor in choosing a spa.  A dealer who goes the extra mile with a warranty with a large number of disclaimers is worth more, IMO, than a warranty with less disclaimers backed by a dealer with poor service.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: BauerN on April 11, 2008, 06:12:09 pm
Quote
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/1205150004013.gif)


Term,   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This just made EVERYONE's day here!

Simple entertainment for simple Friday minds.  

Thank you.
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 06:17:13 pm
What's great about one of the sales today was that this woman has been calling me for FOUR YEARS asking about spas!  I finally sold her one and I don't even know what she looks like.  It was all done over the phone and by e-mail:

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:09:52 -0700 (PDT)
From:  "deshana xxxxxx" <xxxxxxx@yahoo.com>  Add to Address Book  Add Mobile Alert
Yahoo! DomainKeys has confirmed that this message was sent by yahoo.com. Learn more
Subject: Re: Limelight Flair Hot Tub Info
To: "Terminator" <etspatwo@sbcglobal.net>
 Â   
I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS.  IF YOU HAVE A 110 WILL THE JETS AND THE HEAT RUN AT THE SAME TIME.

Absolutely!

WILL THE HEAT BE ON CONSTANTLY.

Our heater never comes on.  We use the heat from the pump to heat the water!

HOW COOL AND HOW HOT CAN YOU MAKE IT?

You can make ice in it during the summer and boil crawdads in it during the winter!

WE THINK WE ARE SETTLED ON THE SOVERIGN.

Half of the spas sold during the last 30 years are HotSpring Sovereigns!

OUR FRIENDS SONNY AND TRACI XXXXXXXXXX HAVE ONE AND WE WENT TO CHECK IT OUT.
Traci is one sexy babe with a gorgeous bod (don't tell Sonny I said that)!

THEY SPEAK VERY HIGHLY OF YOU.  WE WILL HAVE A RX FOR THE NO SALES TAX.  HOW MUCH WILL OUR TOTAL BE WITH EVERYHING, SPA, SPA LIFT COVER, STEPS, AND OF COURSE THE "DADDY SAMS SANDWICH DISCOUNT."  HA! HA!

We only charge our customers $10 over our cost.  MSRP is $17,150 with stereo, but ya'll are getting it for $9600!

As far as the 'sandwich discount', you and your husband should buy ME dinner based on the great deal you are getting!

LET ME KNOW.  YOU CAN CALL ME AT 903-XXX-XXXX TILL 2:30PM FRIDAY.  LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU.
 
DESHANA XXXX

Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 06:25:00 pm
Quote
Wow, seven this week by my count!  Selling about 400 a year.  Not to shabby!

It has been a good week thus far.  I didn't sell anything Wed or Thurs (nobody even came in :'().  I actually forgot about the 2003 Highlife I sold for one of my customers Tuesday, so it's really 8 (I don't make any commission on it, I just did it to help my customer).

And the week ain't over yet! :D

Term
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Summitman on April 11, 2008, 06:26:57 pm
Quote

It has been a good week thus far.  I didn't sell anything Wed or Thurs (nobody even came in :'().  I actually forgot about the 2003 Highlife I sold for one of my customers Tuesday, so it's really 8 (I don't make any commission on it, I just did it to help my customer).

And the week ain't over yet! :D

Term


Pretty good week here as well!  I think all the solid dealers have been posting good numbers lately.

Good luck
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: East_TX_Spa on April 11, 2008, 06:27:07 pm
Quote
Term,   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This just made EVERYONE's day here!

Simple entertainment for simple Friday minds.  

Thank you.

Just be thankful that I had the decency to take his leash off before I pushed him.  I'm just not that cold-hearted.

Term
Title: Re: Jacuzzi 100% no by-pass filtration???
Post by: Jacuzzi Jim on April 11, 2008, 07:02:46 pm
Quote
Ultimately, I would say the dealer providing your warranty service is a more important factor in choosing a spa.  A dealer who goes the extra mile with a warranty with a large number of disclaimers is worth more, IMO, than a warranty with less disclaimers backed by a dealer with poor service.



  This is so true, the only place disclaimers really could come in to effect is if the customer is a complete BUTT HEAD and unreasonable to work issues out on any said thing.    You could always use it as a scapegoat, and say,
HEY JACK---  your spa has had serious chem damage and were not covering it!!   Of course this is extreme,but it could be handy if such a situation should arise.