Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: draket on February 29, 2008, 09:21:02 am
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I'm torn between the Cal SPA Avalon and the Hot Springs Spa Sovereign. Can anyone recommend the best between the two? Thanks
TY
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This will start a debate here, but I'll throw in my two cents.
I prefer Hot Spring over Cal Spas - by far. Now, there are some folks on the forum that are more than happy with their Cal Spa. I have been in the industry for well over twenty years and have seen how Cal Spa treats it warranty. If you have a big dealer for them, your warranty is likely to be taken care of - although, Cal may not pay them for a long time. If you have a small Cal Spa dealer, good luck in getting warranty taken care of.
I know at least ten people who used to be Cal Spa dealers. All ten quit because they could not handle the quality issues and not getting paid for doing warranty work.
Having said all that, you don't know me from Adam so I could be telling big fat lies just to prop Hot Spring. Had you asked the same question and thrown another brand such as Marquis, Sundance, Jacuzzi, D1 and others, I'd tell you to make sure whatever spa you pick is very comfortable to you and meets your needs and wants. But, you didn't ask about those brands, you asked about Cal Spas, so I won't tell you that.
Cal Spa fans, feel free to plaster me now. ;D
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Thought my 1,000th post should be something good. A Cal Spa versus Hotspring question certainly fits the bill. If the prices are comparable, the Hotspring is the way to go. I would probably argue that the Hotspring is the way to go either way.
On a second note, Cal Spa changed their warranty again. In 2007, they had a lifetime warranty on their pump seals and a 5 year warranty on their cabinet. This year there is not a mention of the pump seal and a 3 year warranty on the cabinet. This is, at least, the 5th year in a row they have changed their warranty. From 2006 to 2007, they added verbiage regarding their “lifetime” warranty on the heater and ozonator to state that the labor is only covered for 5 years.
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On a second note, Cal Spa changed their warranty again. In 2007, they had a lifetime warranty on their pump seals and a 5 year warranty on their cabinet. This year there is not a mention of the pump seal and a 3 year warranty on the cabinet. This is, at least, the 5th year in a row they have changed their warranty. From 2006 to 2007, they added verbiage regarding their “lifetime” warranty on the heater and ozonator to state that the labor is only covered for 5 years.
Wow, the constant changes in warranty coverage is a real tip-off, IMO. A warranty is such an important document to both the customer and the company. I can't imagine why a company would expend the legal costs involved in modifiying their warranty coverages in each of the past five years. They must drive their attorneys (and customers) crazy. And it sure sounds like a weasley way to do business!
I wonder if it would be possible to tell what the biggest problems Cal Spa has had in the past five years by analysing at the areas of the warranties that have been shortened or eliminated? Might be interesting.
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The HotSpring offers some things I'm afraid you would miss if you chose another brand:
The MotoMassage jet is one of a kind. The new Sov has the DX version, which is a double. It is wonderful! It is the jet that started the whole moving/spinning jet thing, and I love how it covers your entire back with one jet. Now - the web site doesn't show this change yet, and if your dealer has a2007 model on display it will have the single still. Not bad, just not the new version.
The jet variety: there are small, large, and extra large jets. The small and large jets have interchangeable nozzles which can make the jet an open jet, a straight jet, or a spin jet. And all have the ability to be adjusted as to the amount of air mixed in without changing other jets in the tub. Very unique.
The tubs have an engineered system of foam insulation which is made up of layers of different density of foam. Firm where it needs to support things, soft and airy where it needs to be, and solid as a rock on the very bottom to seal the bottom of the spa.
And - this tub is backed by the largest maker of Portable Hot Tubs on the planet. I know others lead you to believe they are the biggest, but they pale in comparison. Watkins is huge, and they are part of an even larger publicly traded company.
Pump shrouds which capture the hot air from the pump motors and recycle it back into the tub for you, while quieting down the motors.
Self-priming systems, bottom drains, outside drain connections, sound system options, great non-wood siding which is on it's fifth generation, outstanding reputation in the industry....
I have to go to work now....
8-)
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Between Cal and anything, I'd go with the anything... even Hotspring.... ;)
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I do find it interesting there are salespeople for:
Hot Spring
Sundance
Jacuzzi
Arctic
Marquis
Coleman
Bullfrog
and others who post here, but I don't think I have ever seen a post from a Cal Spa representative. Are they not proud enough to toot their horn.
I know they have an advocate in Zep who is a Cal Spa owner.
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I do find it interesting there are salespeople for:
Hot Spring
Sundance
Jacuzzi
Arctic
Marquis
Coleman
Bullfrog
and others who post here, but I don't think I have ever seen a post from a Cal Spa representative. Are they not proud enough to toot their horn.
I know they have an advocate in Zep who is a Cal Spa owner.
Cal Spa reps don't stay around long enough. Ever wonder why they seem to always be looking for reps?
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draket,
I love my CalSpa.
My CalSpas dealer has been great.
I ordered some accessories from headquarters and they
were nice, helpful, and very responsive.
I am not a dealer, have not ever worked in the industry,
and do not own stock in any hot tub/spa company.
Before I purchased my CalSpa I spoke with other satisfied CalSpa customers.
CalSpa sells lots and lots and lots of tubs
CalSpa just built a huge new state of the art facility in California.
To imply most CalSpa customers are unhappy and/or are getting ripped
off is in my opinion ridiculous. Hey 2EachHisOwn.
I will say this......this message board is extremely biased against CalSpas
and in my opinion sensationalizes every little possible problem with a Cal
and greatly downplays any problem with a "board favored brand". If there
is a problem with a Cal it's "see they are junk". If there is a problem
with a "favored brand" it's "oh not to worry I think they fixed that problem"
or "Oh I'm sure they'll take care of you". With that said even the most
biased can be very nice, helpful, and offer wonderful advice to people that
don't own the tubs they sell.
As in most cases I would suggest you check out the dealer, wet test, talk
to people that own both, not just people that sell them and make the
decision on what fits you the best.
BTW, My brother has had a Sundance for years, loves it and has never had a
problem. I hear Hot Springs is a great brand as well and there are lots of
people that sell them that frequent this board that will gladly tell you
every single thing about the Watkins brand of tubs.
Good luck.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Parties2008026.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Hooters066.jpg)
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Its not even a fair comparison. An Avalon series tub is one step up from starter series. It should be in a comparison with say a Tiger river spa. Now If you compared something in the Classic series to an HS tub then it maybe more comparable. If the dealer is trying to tell you that the Avalon is a top tier top for less money just walk away. IMO it should come down to the wet test between the 2 tubs. The Hot Spring tub could have the best warranty in the world but if your not comfortable in it then its worthless.
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I do find it interesting there are salespeople for:
Hot Spring
Sundance
Jacuzzi
Arctic
Marquis
Coleman
Bullfrog
and others who post here, but I don't think I have ever seen a post from a Cal Spa representative. Are they not proud enough to toot their horn.
I know they have an advocate in Zep who is a Cal Spa owner.
Spaman used to come here as a Cal apologist and did his best to explain away the reputation they earned. Then he switched to D1/Marquis and after selling them for a short time he seemed to understand the difference between a premium spa maker and a company that just puts parts together, creates a warranty that looks good on paper and calls themselves a top spa maker.
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"Spaman used to come here as a Cal apologist and did his best to explain away the reputation they earned. Then he switched to D1/Marquis and after selling them for a short time he seemed to understand the difference"
So someone defended the brand they sold, and now they defend the brand they currently sell.
Yeah makes sense to me.
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"Spaman used to come here as a Cal apologist and did his best to explain away the reputation they earned. Then he switched to D1/Marquis and after selling them for a short time he seemed to understand the difference"
So someone defended the brand they sold, and now they defend the brand they currently sell.
Yeah makes sense to me.
Very well spun but he clearly stated that now after he sells one of his current brands he doesn't see NEARLY as many after sale issues as he saw after selling Cal. I'm only relaying what Spaman has said after selling Cal for years and then switching to a couple premium brands!
To me it makes sense, without another brand(s) to compare to there is really no way to clearly say whether the brand you work with is top notch or not. Once you see in person what else is out there you start to get a better feel for the Quality of that which you've been working with.
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draket,
I love my CalSpa.
My CalSpas dealer has been great.
I ordered some accessories from headquarters and they
were nice, helpful, and very responsive.
I will say this......this message board is extremely biased against CalSpas
and in my opinion sensationalizes every little possible problem with a Cal
and greatly downplays any problem with a "board favored brand". If there
is a problem with a Cal it's "see they are junk". If there is a problem
with a "favored brand" it's "oh not to worry I think they fixed that problem"
or "Oh I'm sure they'll take care of you". With that said even the most
biased can be very nice, helpful, and offer wonderful advice to people that
don't own the tubs they sell.
As in most cases I would suggest you check out the dealer, wet test, talk
to people that own both, not just people that sell them and make the
decision on what fits you the best.
BTW, My brother has had a Sundance for years, loves it and has never had a
problem. I hear Hot Springs is a great brand as well and there are lots of
people that sell them that frequent this board that will gladly tell you
every single thing about the Watkins brand of tubs.
Good luck.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Parties2008026.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Hooters066.jpg)
Zep,
I will just say this, I think it is great that you are so happy with your purchase and as such you back your maker. The issue that many who are in the industry have is that over the years Cal has earned their reputation be it what it is. I am not far from where they are made and I get to speak with many people who have had dealings with them and at best it is a very mixed bag of comments. What most give them credit for is being a great marketing company that makes a pretty product.
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Zep,
I will just say this, I think it is great that you are so happy with your purchase and as such you back your maker. The issue that many who are in the industry have is that over the years Cal has earned their reputation be it what it is. I am not far from where they are made and I get to speak with many people who have had dealings with them and at best it is a very mixed bag of comments. What most give them credit for is being a great marketing company that makes a pretty product.
Exactly, they've earned their reputation and no single spa owner who loves his spa is going to change what others think of them. No one is saying that Zep shouldn't be happy with his spa as no one has said every person who ever bought a Cal has been unhappy. Its very easy to get a poor reputation for Quality and Service and at the same time its very difficult to turn that reputation around. It'll take a LOT more Zep-like positive experiences and a lot of time for them to put that past behind them.
I hope Zep enjoys his spa for years to come but I know its a sample of one and in statistics that is just a blip on the radar screen.
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The HotSpring offers some things I'm afraid you would miss if you chose another brand:
The MotoMassage jet is one of a kind. The new Sov has the DX version, which is a double. It is wonderful! It is the jet that started the whole moving/spinning jet thing, and I love how it covers your entire back with one jet. Now - the web site doesn't show this change yet, and if your dealer has a2007 model on display it will have the single still. Not bad, just not the new version.
The jet variety: there are small, large, and extra large jets. The small and large jets have interchangeable nozzles which can make the jet an open jet, a straight jet, or a spin jet. And all have the ability to be adjusted as to the amount of air mixed in without changing other jets in the tub. Very unique.
The tubs have an engineered system of foam insulation which is made up of layers of different density of foam. Firm where it needs to support things, soft and airy where it needs to be, and solid as a rock on the very bottom to seal the bottom of the spa.
And - this tub is backed by the largest maker of Portable Hot Tubs on the planet. I know others lead you to believe they are the biggest, but they pale in comparison. Watkins is huge, and they are part of an even larger publicly traded company.
Pump shrouds which capture the hot air from the pump motors and recycle it back into the tub for you, while quieting down the motors.
Self-priming systems, bottom drains, outside drain connections, sound system options, great non-wood siding which is on it's fifth generation, outstanding reputation in the industry....
I have to go to work now....
8-)
Chas, or anyone tough question HS or Caldera? Can you answer that? I have 2 different dealers down where I live. Therapy and jet variety would be my top priorities... tall guy at 6'3" with wife and kids too.
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Chas, or anyone tough question HS or Caldera? Can you answer that? I have 2 different dealers down where I live. Therapy and jet variety would be my top priorities... tall guy at 6'3" with wife and kids too.
Ya gotta wet test to make that kind of decision. Only way to know which is for you. Both have larger models that will fit a tall person.
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I agree that Zep should be happy with his spa as I am still in contact with many of my old Cal Spa customers and they all seem to be happy with their purchase and the dealer which they purchased the spa from. Just Thursday I was in contact with a local weather man who bought a Cal Spa from me and he said the spa and service has been incredible. I do say that the phone where I currently work does not ring nearly as often for service. In all fairness there is the fact that they have sold a great amount more spas than my current employer and have been in business longer. I do not miss the phone calls though.
I also enjoy not having to explain the internet complaints and nation wide reputation that goes with the Cal Spa name, which I still maintain is largely attributed to the fact that they loan their name to their dealers.
I would buy a D1 over a Cal Spa for the record!
I am still in contact weekly with friends who still work for the dealer in Denver and they seem to be maintaining the same employees that have worked there for years so they seem to be doing well.
I was sad to hear about some recent store closures in their company though, but far and wide they are still the largest store front dealer in the industry.
Bottom line is buy what and whom you are most comfortable with and be proud of your well thought out purchase.
Pay no mind to Spa-Tech he is just looking to find a reason to publicly pick on me. ;)
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Pay no mind to Spa-Tech he is just looking to find a reason to publicly pick on me. ;)
I have great respect for my elders (wow 15 years in the spa industry) and those who have to overcome certain disabilities.
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I have great respect for my elders (wow 15 years in the spa industry) and those who have to overcome certain disabilities.
I don't really consider my club foot a disability, other than the fact that I tend to walk in circles but I almost always get to where I am going eventually. ;)
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I was sad to hear about some recent store closures in their company though, but far and wide they are still the largest store front dealer in the industry.
How many dealers and stores do they have?
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How many dealers and stores do they have?
Well they have the entire states of Colorado, Minnesota and a 35,000 square ft showroom in Vegas. Also parts of Kansas.
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Well they have the entire states of Colorado, Minnesota and a 35,000 square ft showroom in Vegas. Also parts of Kansas.
Factory stores or dealers?
You are saying they have 2 to 4 states covered? I'm confused.
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Chas, or anyone tough question HS or Caldera? Can you answer that? I have 2 different dealers down where I live. Therapy and jet variety would be my top priorities... tall guy at 6'3" with wife and kids too.
Tail, I've tested them both. It really is subjective. I liked HS a little better, but my pal Ivie (I think Searchinginfl here) liked the Caldera better. Have some fun & wet test!
Let us know what you think!
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The Caldera tubs have the same control system as the HS, but with some different programming. They have the same pumps, but with different HP ratings according to models. Generally Caldera have larger, more powerful pumps than HS.
Caldera tubs have a system whereby you can shut off the water flow to jets, increasing the water pressure from too much to absurdly too much.
Caldera spas do not have the Moto Massage jets, but they do have the Waterway toggle jet which can be toggled from a straight jet to a spin jet easily. They are a good jet, and I hope HS has them sometime soon.
[Edit - the new Limelight spas have them. ]
Caldera spa shells have fiberglass backing, and a ten-year structural warranty. Nothing generally goes wrong with the structure, no matter who's spa you buy...
Caldera has several levels or series of tubs - a couple have stereos, most have ozone factory installed, still others are much more plane-jane.
Good quality, enjoyable tubs. Let your backside decide.
8-)
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Mendo just a few thoughts.....
I know Cal is not perfect ....But I also have seen numerous complaints about "the message board can do no wrong favored brands" and that includes the sacred Hot Springs brand. Admittingly for various reasons, it would even be safe to say from my observation there have been more complaints on this board by Hot Springs owners than CalSpa owners. Of course I am not saying Hot Springs is anything but a great spa....heck I may even own one one day if I can buy it from Terminator....but it is true that 99% of the complaints on this message board about Cal come from people that do not own a Cal Spa.
The difference is the "favored brands" complaints are downplayed.....it's always "oh dont worry" or "ah Watkins looked into that and I think that problem is fixed now" or "Hot Springs redesigned that and it's ok now" or "well call your dealer I am sure they'll take of it".
It's always different...like in the thread stuart started "Hot Springs changing the rules again!"...."oh if Watkins is now making some lower quality frame tubs or selling at Costco I am sure there is good reason"....but when "non-favored brands" do the same thing it's an indication they are low quality....blah blah blah. ::)
It's pretty easy to predict, I see new people join this site and they are either a new tub owner or a rep from a company and maybe they say how excited they are about their tubs....maybe they do a little harmless bragging about their brand of tub.....but if they brag about a "non favored brand" they are quickly "put in their place". Just ask Josh and others that break the "unwritten rules". Thou shall not brag too strongly about non-favored brands. If that rule is broken...soon to follow are the little subtle "between the lines" stuff that implies "well I am glad you like that brand of tub" BUT.......or "I sure hope you end up happy with THAT BRAND"....Look at what is going on right now in this thread ....the "Oh I am so happy Zep loves his CalSpa BUT...BUT...BUT" ....as if it is soooooo unusual a Cal Spas owner may be happy!......Mendo I'm not mad or upset.....it's actually pretty funny to watch....the "my tubs better than your tub nah nahnah 6th grade banter"......LOL
Someone even implied if a manufacture doesn't have a rep posting on this message board it must be a sign they make spas of questionable quality!.......Oh ok sure this message board is the center of the spa universe!.....LOL
It's not just me, I spoke with other Cal Spa owners before I purchased and they were all happy with their Cal Spas tub. 99% of you guys demeaning Cal don't own a CalSpa tub or currently sell CalSpa but you're all experts about current day Cal Spas.
Since I have boken all the unwritten rules with this post I expect the "favored brand Calvary" to soon charge in...lol
So I suppose I'll just say we'll agree to disagree.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/calvaryblacke.jpg)
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As I`m reading Zep`s post, I`m thinking .... yeah .....we do exactly that!! :-X
Well....you guys do.... ;)
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Zep,
Great post and really you are a asset to Cal Spas in your passionate praise of their product. I think you understood my post and what I was saying. That Cal Spas reputation is what it is for those in the industry who though the years have had many dealings with them. In our store Cal Spas and than Hot Springs are far and away the brands most customers have owned in the past or currently own (outside of our own customers). I like to speak to them to find out their experiences as we can learn both the good and bad based on the feedback I get. I think so much of what makes a tub well thought of by the owner is how they are treated by the dealer and never more so than if they have a problem. I have said this before but when a problem arises for a customer it is an opportunity for us to reinforce why they allowed us to earn thier business and if handled in the right manner most come away feeling very good about thier purchase and quickly forget the issue but remember that they were treated well.
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Zep, Great post and really you are a asset to Cal Spas in your passionate
praise of their product
Ya know Mendo all I basically ever say is "I Love My CalSpa".
I don't think I have ever stated or implied Cal is a better brand than "X".
I have never called or implied another brand was "junk".
I assume Hot Springs is "the best" in a lot of categories from what ya'll say.
I do know that there are other factors besides reliability when a consumer buys a product that also factor into a purchase. I bought a little sports car once that I
knew would not be as reliable as a Toyota.
Mendo you seem like a great dealer dedicated to your customers!
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Great thread! For those of you that don't know, I am a HotSpring Dealer. I just want that out there so everyone knows I'm a little biased.
As far as the "sweeping under the rug" of the problems customers have posted on here concerning Hot Springs, I would like to state that I haven't seen anyone repost saying the problem wasn't taken care of. When customers ask me what problems has Hot Spring had in the past, I tell them. The reason I do is we stand behind our product and strive to make our customers as happy as we can.
Now, just to clarify, I'm not saying that other companies don't do this, but I do remember a few threads about companies not coming through on the customer service end.
I've got nothing negative to say about CalSpa, and in fact I try not to talk bad about any other brand, only to explain why mine is superior.
My theory is this: I would rather a customer buy from a competitor and be happy than purchase from me and be unsatisfied. My tubs aren't for everyone, and the same can be said about all brands. I think sometimes we get too caught up in the feather ruffling to realize this.
Do I wish everyone would buy a Hot Spring or Tiger River? Sure, but at the end of the day if my customers are overjoyed with the service and performance from their tub and our company, I've done my job. And by doing so, I can promise I'll keep growing my customer base year after year.
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This month marks 2-years for my Hot Springs Vanguard. I'd have to say I doubt there is an easier to maintain spa anywhere out there, though this is the only one I've ever owned......
We had problems last year with the side panels warping...the dealer sent guys out here 3 times. Once with the wrong color, the second time replaced but they still were not sitting flat but the 3rd time it was fixed. As far as function, the thing kicks butt, and feels like it did the first day. We have had no regrets with our HS Vanguard.
FWIW......
Jack
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I have a review thread on my Calspa Avalon 844L. Ive only owned it for 4.5 months, but I really like it. If pricing isnt an issue I would wet test both and pick your favorite. I bought the Avalon because I liked alot of things about it...including price.