Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: lincolnpark on December 10, 2007, 05:44:30 pm
-
Hi, My husband and I recently decided to start looking at spas. We started at Watkins looking at Caldera, moved on to Emerald because they were less expensive and locally made (Grand Rapids). Finally we looked at the HotSpring Vanguard. We have not wet-tested any yet. (We were very disappointed that the Emerald model we were interested in could not be wet-tested and that bothered me a LOT- I can't see making a purchase without wet-testing the model we are interested in).
So. Here we are. Here are some of my questions:
1) what considerations are there to making a purchase/install in winter weather (it is already winter for all intents and purposes here in MI)?
2) I am very concerned about, how do I say this tactfully, having the spa placed nicely on our property without it looking 'plopped down'. Due to the location we have chosen for various reasons, the tub would be visible from the street. Obviously we will be looking at privacy screens but I have been disappointed in the durability of what we've seen. We get a strong west wind and I think those pre-made screens look like they will blow right over. To go into more detail, the obvious choice for our tub is a concrete patio that is on the side of our home adjacent to the walk-out basement slider. We do not wish to place the tub in the backyard for reasons I don't want to go into right now.
3) Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands. I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?
4) The dealer is offering us a small discount (300) off of a floor model Vanguard. He said it has never had water in it and that it's been on the floor 3 weeks. Should we consider this or should we insist on a brand new one?
5) What other spas should we look at in that price range?
Looking forward to learning more from her!
Jen
-
The Vanguard is an excellent spa. President George W Bush has one at his house!
1) Winter is a great time to own a spa. Alsok dealers are willing to offer their lowest prices of the year in order to move out the old spas
2) Hot springs are built for a lifetime of r3elaxation. Lifetime means that it is built to look nice for a long, long time. Perhaps a lifetime if someone doesn't live for too long.
You can put a surround around the spa. It is make of redwood and surrounds the spa to give it more of a built in look.
30 NEVER BUY A SPA FROM SOMEONE THAT WON'T NOT ALLOW WETTESTING!!!~
They are trying to hide there spas inadeqeacies.
4) All Hot springs spas are filled at the factory for testing. He probally means that it hasn't been filled since. $300 is a fair discount. It will work just as fine as a new one.
5) Sundance, Marquee, Jacuuzi, Dementian 1, Coleman, Artic, Artesian, Beachco0omber, and Softub make good spas.
-
[
3) Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands. I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?
Welcome to the forum.
I can speak on item 3 as we purchased a Vanguard this summer. The spa does not have jets that strictly emit air. The jets will mix water and air (you can adjust the amount of air you want with most of the jets). When you wet test, and I'm sure you will, have the salesperson show you how to divert the air flow and adjust it to the amount you want. Several of the jets have individual air diverters.
When we first sat in the corner seats with the air on full blast for the back and shoulders it blew us out of the seats so don't get hung up on the number of jets. Remember quality not quantity.
:)
-
The Vanguard is an excellent spa. President George W Bush has one at his house!
Is that an endorsement? ;D
-
Is that an endorsement? ;D
I think I would rather give that "Consumers Digest Award" a second look. :-[
-
Once you wet test, you'll know not to get hung up on the number of jets. What matters most is that the jets that are there work well, and equally as important -- offer different types of therapy/sensation per seat. I've wet tested several tubs -- still haven't purchased -- and can tell you that HS ranks up there (in my opinion and my wife's) among the top. I agree with the "don't purchase if you can't wet test" theory. I also agree on whom to trust -- HS, Caldera, Marquis, D1, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Artesian...I'm sure I'm missing a couple.
-
I have had a Vanguard for a couple of years and am very happy with it and my dealer.
One thing you should consider is that a huge amount of spa space is taken up by the two "moto massagers" I would lve to have some other unit in place of one of them...just no need for two IMHO. That said- the unit is a breeze to maintain, water filtering is perfect- I have never ever seen ANYTHING suspended in the water ..I have had it cloud up for reasons unrelated to the spa but no unfiltered junk. Electric used is not noticable.
I would like air-jets and generally a bit more variety in the jets but overall this is a fine unit and I would not buy any other brand.
BTW..ALL spas are going to reguire expert service at some point. Unless you have great independent spa people available then you want to buy from a dealer who has been around and has a good service department. My dealer is 30 miles away and the only Hot Springs dealer for a long distance..I was very nervous buying a $9,000 spa from someone so far away. No problem, he has sent people out for very minor issues even when I told him I would do the job myself..never a question and the 3 times I have needed some help the sap guy always ran extra tests and replaced minor parts that functioned but had been upgraded since my purchase. Super service.
-
3) Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands. I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?
I've been in many spas with and without air jets. Air infused into the water jets is a key feature but jets that have air alone are a do-nothing jet for me. They look fine in the showroom where their cause a lot of turbulence in the water but it’s mostly for show as far as I'm concerned.
Some may say they like them and I certainly won't argue that but in the end it’s really about what you think when you wet test them. I've gone to customer's houses MANY times when they’ve had a spa with a blower (air jets) for awhile and sooo many times while I'm there they ask with a puzzled look "what are those jets supposed to do for me".
-
2) I am very concerned about, how do I say this tactfully, having the spa placed nicely on our property without it looking 'plopped down'.
3) Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands. I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?
4) The dealer is offering us a small discount (300) off of a floor model Vanguard. He said it has never had water in it and that it's been on the floor 3 weeks. Should we consider this or should we insist on a brand new one?
5) What other spas should we look at in that price range?
A few of my answers:
2) I'm actually in the exact same situation. My tub is visible to one set of neighbors and will be visible to my new neighbors, should the vacant lot next door be developed upon. What the previous owner did was build a deck around the hot tub and put up lattice walls so that no one can see in. What I've done on top of that is allow a few trees and bushes to grow taller than they should for added privacy. If a Gazebo is a bit expensive right now, consider buying some pre-fab lattice panels at Home Depot and putting up a little fence around the tub to tide you over. You should be able to build a fence for less than a couple of hundred (you'll probably only need 3 fence poles and two or three sheets of lattice.
3) I tested a couple of Hot Springs tubs, and liked a few things about them. I loved their flat back massager seats. Ultimately, I went another way because of a few things. Their tubs were a little short for me for one. I was also unimpressed by their jets compared to those of several other tubs I tested. It's not the number of jets themselves (I think they were all in the right places)....but I found there to be a lack of pressure compared to tubs that were priced quite a bit less. I think that's due to the horsepower in their motors (the one I eventually bought had over 3 times as much).
Also...I like the air jets. The tub I finally settled on had a ton of them (in addition to water jets) and it's a nice bonus. My Dad's tub had them too, and on a winter night...there's nothing like turning those things on in a really hot spa. Especially if you turn off all the jets and JUST use the air.
That being said...I didn't really focus on the specific number of jets. One tub I tested had over 70, and that didn't make it any more comfortable than the spas I tested with half that many. Wet test....it's really the only way to tell what feels right to you. Looks and specs aren't nearly as important as how it feels.
4) 300 bucks doesn't sound like much to me. What was the starting price on that tub? It seemed to me that everywhere I went, they had "retail" prices on their flagship tubs from anywhere from 8000 up to 13,000 then they were "on sale" for as low as 9 or 10. When I told each dealership I wasn't buying the tub there, suddenly....they found one they could sell me for hundreds or even thousands less. The whole process was funny that way. Hot Springs had a floor model for me for a lot less than their best price the week before. Arctic blew me out of the water by offering me a tub for 4000 less than anything they had in their showroom only two days earlier. Phoenix (the lowest priced spa I looked at) started out low, but even they were willing to go down more than 300 bucks.
The main thing to remember with any negotiation like this is that you have to be willing to walk away (and not come back). Often times, when you rule a dealer out...you'll find that they come up with all sorts of deals. If they don't, and you have other options....just cross them off and move on. If you MUST have that tub and you let them know that...just be prepared to pay a little more than you would if you could take or leave it. I think if you wet test all the brands you can find in your area....you'll find you have a lot of options, and you'll really be able to be price choosey at that point.
5) Some other models I recommend you check out: Jacuzzi 470. It's a very similar layout to the Vanguard, but I thought it was better. It was in my top 3, but ultimately I didn't choose it because I wanted a lounger model (and Jacuzzi's 480 was too short for me)
Sundance was good too. I tested the Cameo, and I really liked that one a lot. They have a model called Majesta that is a lot like the Vanguard. Their spas have a lot of bells and whistles available which was neat. I sat in that one dry, but did not wet test.
Last but not least, if there's one in your area, check out LA Spas. They have a model similar to the Vanguard called the Concord, and I thought the performance was better than anything I tried. Ultimately for me, it came down to the Concord or a similar model called the HEET with the lounger. I tested over a dozen tubs and that's the one I eventually picked. It's being built as we speak.
Whatever you choose, welcome to these boards! I just got done searching extensively for a tub myself, and had many of the same questions you did. I found a lot of people here to be very helpful.....but the most important thing you can do is Wet Test. No matter what brand someone recommends or why.....nothing they can say will equal your own experience sitting in the tubs and finding out what's right for you.
-
I think that's due to the horsepower in their motors (the one I eventually bought had over 3 times as much).
3x the horsepower??
Are you comparing a continuous horsepower rating of one spas with a continuous horsepower rating of another or did your dealer/manufacturer give you a spec sheet that rated the pump in BHP, brake horsepower (aka starting Hp) which some use in a sly way to make it seem they are using "bigger" pumps?
For instance, if you go to the Hot Spring website and look at a Grande you'll see it rated both ways to show the difference and help if comparing to a manufacturer that only uses the BHP rating On that spa it has two pumps rated 2.5 Continuous HP (or 4.8 BHP) and 2.0 Continuous HP (or 3.9 BHP). Whenever you are quoted horsepower you always want to know if they're trying to slip in the BHP rating.
-
3x the horsepower??
Are you comparing a continuous horsepower rating of one spas with a continuous horsepower rating of another or did your dealer/manufacturer give you a spec sheet that rated the pump in BHP, brake horsepower (aka starting Hp) which some use in a sly way to make it seem they are using "bigger" pumps?
Yeah, I just looked on the LA spa web site.. the Heet actually has the same horse power as the Vista here is the cut and paste discription:
2-3 5 MBHP / 2.5 HP cont. each
-
5 MBHP / 2.5 HP cont. each
Very good, they are showing it both ways. Hopefully the salesperson would quote both or if only one way would quote the continuous but ...
-
Very good, they are showing it both ways. Hopefully the salesperson would quote both or if only one way would quote the continuous but ...
that would be the ulitimate flim flam right?? :D
-
3) Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands. I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?
4) The dealer is offering us a small discount (300) off of a floor model Vanguard. He said it has never had water in it and that it's been on the floor 3 weeks. Should we consider this or should we insist on a brand new one?
5) What other spas should we look at in that price range?
Looking forward to learning more from her!
Jen
Welcome to the Forum! You will find some great info here. Don't get caught up on the # of jets. HotSpring offers a variety of jets and once you wet test, you will find out what feels good and what doesn't. 100 mini jets is good for "jet count", but how do they feel and is there enough pump to provide a good massage? The moto massage jets in the Vanguard count as 1 jet, but feels like 8.
$300 is $300. The floor model still has the 5 year warranty which starts the day it's delivered to your house. If you want a brand new one you'll have to wait until HotSpring starts up production in January, unless your dealer has one in the warehouse.
Other spas to look at..... look at what you can, wet test them and then make your decision. Find a dealer you like and can trust. Remember, you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get.
-
that would be the ulitimate flim flam right?? :D
Believe it or not some will say whatever it takes to sell, especially if it’s not really a lie but just a convenient spin on reality. I also love the one where the manufacturer will have a single jet with maybe 8 ports and they will count that as 8 jets in their jet count.
This site is good at helping people understand a few of the curves out there and to realize wet testing and quality are far more important than jet counts and horsepower.
-
Believe it or not some will say whatever it takes to sell, especially if it’s not really a lie but just a convenient spin on reality. I also love the one where the manufacturer will have a single jet with maybe 8 ports and they will count that as 8 jets in their jet count.
This site is good at helping people understand a few of the curves out there and to realize wet testing and quality are far more important than jet counts and horsepower.
Hmmmm then in that case you could count the "soothing seven" on the HS as 14 jets right there... !! :o
-
My wife and I just ordered a Vanguard several weeks ago. We were just informed that we will be getting the 2008 model instead of the 2007 model that we ordered. This is because they are no longer making the 2007. Has production on the 2008 models started yet, or do they start up after the new year? We are hoping to get our tub by Christmas.
-
We get updates daily on which spas are still available to promise and which ones have sold out for the year. And on most of the models, they will start the new model tubs early if they have to. In fact, I have four 2008 spas on my showroom floor because we happened to sell the floor models - which we do every year around this time - and it so happened that they were out of 2007 models.
Yes, they will ship the next year model when they sell the last of the current year. They are amazing in the way they do not keep any stock on hand, making just the spas needed just in time. However, they can predict days - sometimes even weeks - in advance the exact day a certain model and color will roll off the line and be ready to ship or pick up. They have it down.
8-)
-
If your dealer ordered from Watkins, you should get it. If you don't get it in December look for it mid January.
Everyone here will tell you, the waiting is the hardest part.
-
"new here- leaning towards the HS Vanguard."
I was having the same problem. Then I realized that I had two different shoes on.
-
I own a 2006 Vanguard and it is an awesome tub. Great jets and very economical. I live in Indy and leave my tub at 100 degrees. So far this winter my electric bill has increased less than $10 per month.
-
"new here- leaning towards the HS Vanguard."
I was having the same problem. Then I realized that I had two different shoes on.
arf, arf. :D
-
Thanks for your input so far! We looked at Caldera's again today and we are adding them to our list. We looked at the Niagra and the one that's like a Niagra with the lounger (can't recall the model name off the top of my head). That dealer told us that Caldera and HS are the two best spas out there (he doesn't sell HS due to the protection laws or something- the HS dealer is down the street).
What are the major considerations between the HS and the Caldera? I know they both use the ozone but the HS used 5 regular sized looking filters while the Caldera used one giant sized filter. What does that mean to me as a user? What if I said that it is extremely important to me to have clean water all the time with the least amount of chemicals (as I'm sure this is a common desire among spa consumers). I don't want to add too many other brands into the mix but we may check out Marquis as there is a dealer in town. Between these 3 which allows for the cleanest water?
Also I believe the Caldera had a deeper seating, which I desire, although I think less choice of seat height as compared to the Vanguard.
We still need to wet-test these- probably over the weekend
-
We still need to wet-test these- probably over the weekend
Let your last statement be a key indicator as to which to choose along with your confidence in each particular dealer to be there for you both before and after the sale.
I would also suggest that if at all possible, try to wet test all the same day, back-back-back or at least all the same weekend. That way your brain can better correlate the differences you feel in a short time span as opposed to wet testing one this weekend and then another next weekend and having to compare how they feel when one is fresh on your mind and the other not so much.
-
Thanks for your input so far! We looked at Caldera's again today and we are adding them to our list. We looked at the Niagra and the one that's like a Niagra with the lounger (can't recall the model name off the top of my head). That dealer told us that Caldera and HS are the two best spas out there (he doesn't sell HS due to the protection laws or something- the HS dealer is down the street).
What are the major considerations between the HS and the Caldera? I know they both use the ozone but the HS used 5 regular sized looking filters while the Caldera used one giant sized filter. What does that mean to me as a user? What if I said that it is extremely important to me to have clean water all the time with the least amount of chemicals (as I'm sure this is a common desire among spa consumers). I don't want to add too many other brands into the mix but we may check out Marquis as there is a dealer in town. Between these 3 which allows for the cleanest water?
Also I believe the Caldera had a deeper seating, which I desire, although I think less choice of seat height as compared to the Vanguard.
We still need to wet-test these- probably over the weekend
I believe you are talking about the Caldera Geneva. My sister has one. I have the HS Vista.(little bigger than the vanguard ) I have soaked extensively in both. You will be happy with either. I actually found the seats in my Vista deeper than the Geneva. I do love the strong jet in the bottom of the Geneva. I also thought about getting the Grandee...which is really just a bigger version of the Vanguard. I Like the motomassage ... however not enough to waste two seats on it.. I rather have more options. ::)
-
We bought our Vanguard in 2006 and it has worked well for us. More jets does not = better tub. We are all happy campers in our family, 1.5 yrs later.
-
Yeah, I just looked on the LA spa web site.. the Heet actually has the same horse power as the Vista here is the cut and paste discription:
2-3 5 MBHP / 2.5 HP cont. each
Very good, they are showing it both ways. Hopefully the salesperson would quote both or if only one way would quote the continuous but ...
that would be the ulitimate flim flam right?? :D
Wait, now you have me confused. The LA Spas HEET on the website has close to the same Horsepower as the Vista does. The Vista says it has two 4.8HP pumps (2.5 continous) and the HEET says it has 2 5HP pumps (2.5 continous). However....the HEET I wet tested had an extra 5HP pump (2.5 continuous) installed on top of that for a total of 15HP (to the Vista's 9) or 7 continuous to the Vista's 5.
I liked the way it felt so much, that that's the one I ended up settling on. When I bought it, I ordered my tub configured the same way. I saw the panel and it had three pumps in it in the showroom.....so I'm not sure how that would make it the same as a 2 pump tub.
Can someone explain this?
-
3) I tested a couple of Hot Springs tubs, and liked a few things about them. I loved their flat back massager seats. Ultimately, I went another way because of a few things. Their tubs were a little short for me for one. I was also unimpressed by their jets compared to those of several other tubs I tested. It's not the number of jets themselves (I think they were all in the right places)....but I found there to be a lack of pressure compared to tubs that were priced quite a bit less. [glow]I think that's due to the horsepower in their motors (the one I eventually bought had over 3 times as much). [/glow]
The above post is the one that got us to respond to explain that you didn't get 3x the HP as you indicated you believed you received. It seemed that maybe you fell victim to the BS of the BHP shell game.
Wait, now you have me confused. The LA Spas HEET on the website has close to the same Horsepower as the Vista does. The Vista says it has two 4.8HP pumps (2.5 continous) and the HEET says it has 2 5HP pumps (2.5 continous). However....[glow]the HEET I wet tested had an extra 5HP pump (2.5 continuous) installed on top of that for a total of 15HP (to the Vista's 9) or 7 continuous to the Vista's 5.[/glow]
Can someone explain this?
In your subsequent post 2 days later you got it right. Your spa has 50% more HP than the Vista, not 300% more.
Now having said that, it should be all about feel, not HP. Since you wet tested I assume you went by what felt best, not simply which had the bigger number.
-
L.A. spas and Hot springs are the only 2 spas that have what "we in the industry" call one hundred percent filtration WITHOUT bypass.
All of the water goes throught the filter. They stay cleaner than other spas, pay no attention to what others will try and tell you.
I have seen them all and these two REALLY keep the water clean.
-
The above post is the one that got us to respond to explain that you didn't get 3x the HP as you indicated you believed you received. It seemed that maybe you fell victim to the BS of the BHP shell game.
In your subsequent post 2 days later you got it right. Your spa has 50% more HP than the Vista, not 300% more.
To be honest, I originally thought the Vista had 1 5HP pump and the Heet had 3 of them. I didn't know the Hot Springs had two pumps (my salesman never mentioned that). However, when someone posted that they were the same, I knew that couldn't be right....so I went to the website and checked out the detailed specs myself. The Heet still has more HP....but not 300% more. I stand corrected.
One question: How many pumps does the Vista come with Standard? How about the Envoy? I'm wondering if perhaps I wet tested a one pump HS vs. a three pump LA. That certainly wouldn't be fair.
Now having said that, it should be all about feel, not HP. Since you wet tested I assume you went by what felt best, not simply which had the bigger number.
You assume correctly. The Hot Springs was always in my original top few choices (especially after all the positive reviews I read everywhere). It's one of the only brands that I really didn't find a bunch of negativity about. While I chalk a large percentage of that up to the fact that the sites I visited are frequented by Hot Springs salesmen.....I also saw many owners say good things, which I really respected.
After a Wet Test, it wasn't a contender anymore. When I compared the other dozen or so spas I tested, the LA Spas Heet and Concord ended up as the top two choices. I figured it had something to do with all that extra Horsepower....but perhaps that's not as important as I thought it was.
For people that know about this stuff....perhaps you can explain a little more. What does the max horsepower rating mean anyway?
-
"What does the max horsepower rating mean anyway?"
Continuous Operating is the amount of HP the motor is capable of producing while your spa is in operation. Brake HP is the momentary(sp?) HP the motor produces at the start up, before dropping to Continuous HP.
-
Replying to the Caldera/Hot Springs question.....Every spa has their own way of cleaning. In the end, all of the top end spas.....Hot Springs, Caldera, Sundance, Jacuzzi, D-1, Marquis.....they will all keep the water as clean as possible, as long as you maintain it.
I chose the Caldera Niagra. I originally wanted the Geneva (the one with the lounge), but after wet testing, I liked the flexibility the Niagra has. I love the BIG foot jet, and I love the fact that it is not right in the middle of the floor. I love the wide variety of jets, which is Caldera's philosophy of "circuit" soaking....each seat gives a different massage. I didn't want a spa with 2 seats the same. I love the open floor, which I didn't think would matter, but now I realize how much I move around the spa, and even sit down in the footwell sometimes!
I have only had it for 2 weeks, but I am very happy. I cleaned the filter for the first time last night. It was really easy......but I would not have enjoyed doing 5. I also love the lighting in the Caldera.
My advice....WET TEST!!!! Don't let the filtration system or horsepower or amount of jets be a factor. All the high- end ones are comparable. Go with what feels best. Write down pros and cons RIGHT AFTER testing, and don't be afraid to re-test. ( I tested a few 2-3 times, but kept coming back to the Niagra....4 tests would not let me eliminate it). Good luck and happy hunting!
-
To be honest, I originally thought the Vista had 1 5HP pump and the Heet had 3 of them. I didn't know the Hot Springs had two pumps (my salesman never mentioned that). However, when someone posted that they were the same, I knew that couldn't be right....so I went to the website and checked out the detailed specs myself. The Heet still has more HP....but not 300% more. I stand corrected.
One question: How many pumps does the Vista come with Standard? How about the Envoy? I'm wondering if perhaps I wet tested a one pump HS vs. a three pump LA. That certainly wouldn't be fair.
Josh,
You assume correctly. The Hot Springs was always in my original top few choices (especially after all the positive reviews I read everywhere). It's one of the only brands that I really didn't find a bunch of negativity about. While I chalk a large percentage of that up to the fact that the sites I visited are frequented by Hot Springs salesmen.....I also saw many owners say good things, which I really respected.
After a Wet Test, it wasn't a contender anymore. When I compared the other dozen or so spas I tested, the LA Spas Heet and Concord ended up as the top two choices. I figured it had something to do with all that extra Horsepower....but perhaps that's not as important as I thought it was.
For people that know about this stuff....perhaps you can explain a little more. What does the max horsepower rating mean anyway?
All I was telling you is that EACH pump is the same EXACT size on the Vista and the Heet. You just chose to get an extra pump installed on your Heet.. giving you three pumps. But all pumps are the same size. The way you originally posted it made it sound like you thought yours was a 5 hp each...and that the Vista had 2.5 hp. Both have 2.5hp.
Vista comes standard with two. I don't believe you can have more as an option.. it defeats the purpose of being energy efficent I would think?
-
My advice....WET TEST!!!! Don't let the filtration system or horsepower or amount of jets be a factor. All the high- end ones are comparable. Go with what feels best. Write down pros and cons RIGHT AFTER testing, and don't be afraid to re-test. ( I tested a few 2-3 times, but kept coming back to the Niagra....4 tests would not let me eliminate it). Good luck and happy hunting!
I absolutely agree. I took along a little digital recorder and went out to the car immediately after every wet test to document exacty how each seat felt. I tested over several days, many back to back....so this was truly the only way to remember exactly how I felt about each and every tub I tested. With this little aid, I remembered every seat I liked, how strong each tubs jets were compared to others, how deep seats were, or how long the lounge was......
Without that, I'm sure I would have forgotten things. When I went back and listened to the tapes, it was easy to create a list of the top few to go back and give a second visit to. That's also how I eventually narrowed it down.
Vista comes standard with two. I don't believe you can have more as an option.. it defeats the purpose of being energy efficent I would think?
Although I heard many stories in the showrooms, I really don't believe there's such a thing as an "energy efficient spa". Fact is, they all cost within a few bucks of one another to operate each month....and I'm guessing that average cost doesn't have much to do with how many pumps are in there. Energy use is likely all about how many gallons of water they hold and how efficiently they bring it up to temperature (and maintain that temperature).
Now...when you're actually in there and running the jets on full blast....that's a different story. I'm sure during that hour or so....the Heet with the 3 pumps is going to be more of a power hog than the Vista with only 2. My particular spa even more so....because I added about a billion lights. ;D Those things are ok with me, because they provide a better experience. If that costs me 50 cents more or something per kilowatt hour while I'm in there, I can deal with that.
The rest of the time though, most spas just sit there with their heater and circulation pump running. I'd imagine the specs on those are about the same (and in similarly sized tubs, probably cost within a buck or two to operate each month)
-
Josh,
I would say maybe. I personally like less light as I enjoy the stars. I am not sure how the HEET runs... but I know when I am in my Vista alone I only need one pump going.. for which ever seat I am sitting in... when the tub is full... I have both pumps on...and my friends ask me to turn the power down as it is too intense... but again... I don't have many 6'4 giants in my tub ;) I have no complaints with my tub. I looked at the LA spas sight...and the HEET is a very nice looking tub.. with a lot of jets.. I am sure with that being said its a good thing you have the extra pump.
Either way... I don't think any of us can really go wrong... with the tubs that are mentioned on this sight... they all have different features...its all in what the individual is looking for. ::)
-
I absolutely agree. I took along a little digital recorder and went out to the car immediately after every wet test to document exacty how each seat felt. I tested over several days, many back to back....so this was truly the only way to remember exactly how I felt about each and every tub I tested. With this little aid, I remembered every seat I liked, how strong each tubs jets were compared to others, how deep seats were, or how long the lounge was......
Without that, I'm sure I would have forgotten things. When I went back and listened to the tapes, it was easy to create a list of the top few to go back and give a second visit to. That's also how I eventually narrowed it down.
Although I heard many stories in the showrooms, I really don't believe there's such a thing as an "energy efficient spa". Fact is, they all cost within a few bucks of one another to operate each month....and I'm guessing that average cost doesn't have much to do with how many pumps are in there. Energy use is likely all about how many gallons of water they hold and how efficiently they bring it up to temperature (and maintain that temperature).
Now...when you're actually in there and running the jets on full blast....that's a different story. I'm sure during that hour or so....the Heet with the 3 pumps is going to be more of a power hog than the Vista with only 2. My particular spa even more so....because I added about a billion lights. ;D Those things are ok with me, because they provide a better experience. If that costs me 50 cents more or something per kilowatt hour while I'm in there, I can deal with that.
The rest of the time though, most spas just sit there with their heater and circulation pump running. I'd imagine the specs on those are about the same (and in similarly sized tubs, probably cost within a buck or two to operate each month)
Not sure that makes sense.
-
Josh, I have to disagree with you on operating costs. From what I've been reading on this site, and others, those spas that are not full foam insulated can cost tremendously more per month to operate.
-
Josh, I have to disagree with you on operating costs. From what I've been reading on this site, and others, those spas that are not full foam insulated can cost tremendously more per month to operate.
You're definately right on that, but be careful. It's not just how much foam, but also what density of foam and whether or not it's an open or closed cell foam.
The other thing that affects how energy efficient (or inefficient) a tub can be is the circ pump that runs 24/7 vs. a 2 speed pump that kicks on and off to heat and filter. That kicking on and off causes a larger surge of energy than continuous use (like that of turning a light on and off vs. letting it run continuously).
I don't want to start a big debate, but these are why the Hot Spring lines are so energy efficient.
-
WET TEST WET TEST WET TEST. TAKE YOUR TIME. PLAY WITH ALL THE FEATURES. ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS. DO YOU NEED AIR? YOUR IN MI, IN THE WINTER IT WILL BLOW COLD AIR. DOES THE FI;TER HAVE A BYPASS? DOES IT HAVE AIR VENTURI OR DOES IT NOT GIVE YOU A CHOICE. DO YOU LIKE THE 5" JETS OR THE 3" JETS? DO YOU FLOAT OUT OF A SEAT? DO YOU NEED MORE FOOT JETS? ARE YOU A SOAKER? MAKE A LIST OF WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU. IS IT FOR THERAPY OR LIESURE? DO HAVE BACK PROBLEMS? DOES THE DEALER HAVE SPARE PARTS IN STOCK? HOW LONG HAS THE DEALER BEEN IN BUSINESS. DO YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE NEXT SPA DELIVERY FROM THE FACTORY FOR PARTS TO ARRIVE?
REMEMBER THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE WITH THIS SPA BEYOND THE WARRANTY PERIOD AND MI IS COLD. DON'T WANT A SPACICLE.
-
Okay, here's my two cents on all the pump nonsense. This is one of the most misleading things in this industry and it drives me crazy. The pool industry does it as well. Some pool builders will promote how many HP they use when they build a pool.
Sure, you can get a pump that says 2.5hp. But, does that mean Brake or continuous? Is it a full-rated or an up-rated pump? See, a 2.5hp Uprated pump is really a 2.0hp full-rated pump. It just lets you say what you want.
Some pump manufacturers ask their spa manufacturer what hp they want shown on their pumps. If the mfg says I want it to show 2.5 hp, the pump guys just put that sticker on there.
__________
As to the three pumps - Just because you have three 2.5hp pumps does not mean you have 7.5hp in your spa. It means you have three pumps that are 2.5hp. You don't add each pump to get a total. Its not like the the water goes through pump one, then pump two, then pump three and the water gets accelerated by each pump. It just doesn't work that way.
If you have had a spa with 100 mini jets and that was all, if you had 2 pumps, then most likely the mfg would split the jets and give each pump 50 jets. If you added another pump, then you'd see the mfg split them to 33, 33, and 34. You would feel more pressure in the second instance because you have the same horsepower coursing through fewer jets. But, you wouldn't have more total horsepower.
I have sat in many spas. I have sat in spas that claimed to have 7hp pumps. They felt weaker than some that said they had 2hp pumps.
_____________________
As to some of these higher horsepower claims - I worked at one time for a commercial pool equipment manufacturer. We made commercial swimming pool pumps. It is not uncommon for a 100,000 gallon commercial pool to have two to three 3hp pumps. I can tell you that the water moves really fast in that situation.
Here's an example of a a 5hp and 3hp pump: A 5hp pump needs to have a 6" suction line and a 4" discharge line. I have never seen a spa with that size of plumbing. A typical 3hp pump requires at least a 2 1/2" suction line. Again, you don't see that in spas.
_______________________
What matters is how you personally like the feel of the spa. Don't get sucked in by how many horsepower the literature says the spa has. If you like the seating and the pressure of the jets, that's all that matters.
-
Okay, here's my two cents on all the pump nonsense. This is one of the most misleading things in this industry and it drives me crazy.
I have sat in many spas. I have sat in spas that claimed to have 7hp pumps. They felt weaker than some that said they had 2hp pumps.
I will add my two cents to this also. The HP thing also drives me crazy. Who cares how many HP a motor is brake or peak,its all about the pump not the motor. Gallons per Minute are the only true way to measure the performance of a pump. Horsepower is a measurement of the motor not the pump.
There, I have vented and now I feel better
-
Josh,
I would say maybe. I personally like less light as I enjoy the stars. I am not sure how the HEET runs... but I know when I am in my Vista alone I only need one pump going.. for which ever seat I am sitting in... when the tub is full... I have both pumps on...and my friends ask me to turn the power down as it is too intense... but again... I don't have many 6'4 giants in my tub ;) I have no complaints with my tub. I looked at the LA spas sight...and the HEET is a very nice looking tub.. with a lot of jets.. I am sure with that being said its a good thing you have the extra pump.
Either way... I don't think any of us can really go wrong... with the tubs that are mentioned on this sight... they all have different features...its all in what the individual is looking for. ::)
I live in Seattle, so the stars don't appear as often as they may in cities with clearer skies. During the summer they're out a lot....but I don't tend to be in the hot tub. There are those wonderful winter nights where it's freezing cold and clear....and for those nights, I imagine I will have the lights off too.
Other times (such as party nights)....I can see turning them on and setting off a light show to rival my Christmas tree. Something like 120 lights in this tub I've got, it's going to be crazy cool.
I don't think a lot of people are probably into that....and that's probably why it was an optional feature. Even the salesperson said "Are you sure you want that many?". :)
As far as the pumps go....I think you're right...I'll generally only use one or two, but I like the idea that when I have company over, we can turn all the seats up all the way and no one has to sit in the "weak seat". That's the one thing I really liked about this tub compared to others. I'm sure that won't matter a lot of the time either (since it's usually just me and one or two people)
Overall...to use a car analogy, I ended up buying one with sports car performance....even though I'll probably be doing mostly city driving (a Civic would have been fine). :)
It should be noted that while I am very happy with my choice in purchase....I wouldn't recommend AGAINST any brand of tub that I tested. While there were a few that weren't right for me (because of my height or the fact that I wanted to the option to have jets that felt like a firehose when turned up all the way).....there wasn't one that I got into and said "This is just lame in general".
I can tell people the best things about any tub I tested. I've said a lot about the LA Spas....but I also had a lot of favorable things to say about brands like Hot Springs, Phoenix, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Arctic and a few others that aren't popping into mind.
One thing I didn't find during my search was a hot tub that sucked so bad I wanted to warn people not to buy it. I'm sure they're out there.....but none of them were in the list of big brands I checked out. :)
-
I would definitely try out the Epic at your Marquis dealer in town.
-
I live in Rockford and have bought 2 spas in Grand Rapids, both form Dave at Waterland Spas. Waterland is now part of Zagers, but Dave still works there. He comes from a repair/service background and is very knowlegable. I bought an Artesian Island Captiva in 2006 (a 2005 model) from Waterland, and it has been great. One nonmovable jet broke and Zagers fixed it under warranty no questions asked. Zagers carries Vita and Reflections and D1 at its other locations. And Dave can still order Artesians. Obviously, don't buy a spa if you don't like it, but if you like what Zagers carries, I don't believe you need to worry about the dealer. As far as other dealers, you have obviously been to Pools Plus. I have never bought from them, but they have been a dealer in Grand Rapids for along time. The Marquis dealer I believe is now located in Lowell. Currently, I do not believe there is a Sundance dealer in Grand Rapids. Emeralds are intriguing because they are built in Grand Rapids (I visited the factory the first time I was buying about 8 years ago), but the dealer will not fill any tub other than the one they have water in, as you found out. Plus, I found the jets to be of poor quality compared to other brands. Blue Water Spas used to carry Jacuzzi, but I do not know what has happened to them. Good luck shopping!
-
There are a lot of good tubs out there. From research on this board, we Wet Tested to death (going back again to our final choices), checked out quality, energy efficiency and warranty, then made our decision to go with an HS Vanguard based upon the quality of the DEALER (amongst other things, of course :)). Other tubs had quality features, too. Other dealers, in our area, did NOT. Our dealer was the final deciding factor, as we plan on having this tub for a long time and did not want any grief in case we needed service (either in or out of warranty).
Good luck in your search, and may this forum, and The Force, guide you!
The Doob, former Jedi apprentice.
-
Good luck in your search, and may this forum, and The Force, guide you!
The Doob, former Jedi apprentice.
The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. 501st saw to that. ;)