Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: IL Parrothead on November 27, 2007, 01:19:47 am
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Having trouble sleeping. The Cliff Claven side of my brain has been digesting hot tub minutiae.
I noticed HS Tri-X filters have 325 sq. ft. of filtration whereas many other spa manufacturers (Caldera, Marquis and others) get by with 100 sq. ft. or less.
Those of you who have owned or sold both -- any noticeable difference in filtration?
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This is going to start a fight.
Here is my comparison of a HotSpring vs Marquis:
1.) A HotSpring will filter 5,000 gallons of water per day, whereas a Marquis will filter over 20,000 gallons per day (can be programmed to filter over 100,000 gallons per day)
2.) A HotSpring has no bottom filtration (it only pulls from the top), whereas you will see bottom suction fittings on a Marquis that can pull up small matter off the footwell. On a Marquis, these bottom suction fittings do not bypass the filter when the spa is filtering (they are plumbed in to the bottom of the filter housing).
3.) When you see a HotSpring filter water, you will see very little surface movement. Usually the only thing you will see is bubbles coming up from the bottom of the spa out of the ozone/circ pump return. When you see a Marquis filter water, you will see a lot of water movement (it's filtering at a rate of 80 gallons per minute). All 4 corners of the spa have movement, therefore body oils, hair, and other types of debris are able to be pulled in to the filters before they are able to "cake" to the side of the spa shell.
4.) HotSpring has a clean up cycle if you remember to hit the "Clean Up" button after you get out. Marquis has a system called SmartClean that will automatically do a 1 hour clean up cycle after you get out. The software waits ½ hour after the jets shut off for body oils and other material to float to the surface. After ½ hour the spa comes on and filters 4,800 gallons of water and then shuts off.
Of course this is a biased comparison, to my knowledge all of the above information is correct.
Bottom line: both are quality spas, both will filter adequately.
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I cannot answer your question. But I can say this, I think you are getting caught up in unimportant details. Don't let the sales pitch sell you. If you have chosen a premium brand, you have nothing to worry about. My anology is that you are choosing between an Acura and a Lexus and are fretting over which one has the nicest windshield wipers or the best parking brake.
I too thought carefully about all those details. Now that I have owned my tub for a month, I haven't thought abpout the filtering system again (other to clean the filters). Which tub feels better when you sit in it? Make your best deal on that tub bro!
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Parrothead,
Follow solo's advice and only take this one comment from Markee's post:
"Bottom line: both are quality spas, both will filter adequately." Then wet test until you find the one for you. Good luck in your search.
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This is going to start a fight.
Here is my comparison of a HotSpring vs Marquis:
1.) A HotSpring will filter 5,000 gallons of water per day, whereas a Marquis will filter over 20,000 gallons per day (can be programmed to filter over 100,000 gallons per day)
2.) A HotSpring has no bottom filtration (it only pulls from the top), whereas you will see bottom suction fittings on a Marquis that can pull up small matter off the footwell. On a Marquis, these bottom suction fittings do not bypass the filter when the spa is filtering (they are plumbed in to the bottom of the filter housing).
3.) When you see a HotSpring filter water, you will see very little surface movement. Usually the only thing you will see is bubbles coming up from the bottom of the spa out of the ozone/circ pump return. When you see a Marquis filter water, you will see a lot of water movement (it's filtering at a rate of 80 gallons per minute). All 4 corners of the spa have movement, therefore body oils, hair, and other types of debris are able to be pulled in to the filters before they are able to "cake" to the side of the spa shell.
4.) HotSpring has a clean up cycle if you remember to hit the "Clean Up" button after you get out. Marquis has a system called SmartClean that will automatically do a 1 hour clean up cycle after you get out. The software waits ½ hour after the jets shut off for body oils and other material to float to the surface. After ½ hour the spa comes on and filters 4,800 gallons of water and then shuts off.
Of course this is a biased comparison, to my knowledge all of the above information is correct.
Bottom line: both are quality spas, both will filter adequately.
I would like to see in print from the HS factory anything about 5,000 gallons a day. :-/ It doesn't add up. you mention that both are adequate at filtering..... after you slam the crap out of HS while comparing it to your product. I say "your product" because it is clear to me that you obviously sell marquis tubs . (if you don't sell them you did a good job memorizing their sales pitch ;) I certainly will not claim to know much about either system. I just know I sit in comfort in my HS knowing that every bit of water coming out of my jets just went through my filter...... now I don't care how much HS only pulls from the surface... I have watched the water that gets sucked into the filter compartment ( a compartment that has vents all the way down at the bottom... where it also pulls in water... hmmm how bout that...... for every minute that goes by.... there is new surface water.... so it stands to reason that all your water is being filtered. As for the Marquis being able to pull from its bottom and get some of the debris... I don't think I would want that in my pumps... I like the fact that all water hits the filter before any thing else. I can suck up the sand myself. not a problem...
Again though.. I am sure my opinion is bias as well... after all I did chose Hot Springs. :)
Now what I would like to see... is a comparison done by someone that has intimate knowledge of both brands... with out bias...... no offense meant here... ;)
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If the Hotspring is still using the small laing pumps, then here is about what they would pull for water filtration.
9gpm x 60 x 24 = gallons per day
Thats Roughly 13000 gallons per day
To only achieve 5000 gallons, the circulation pump would only be moving <4 gallons per minute, which does not sound right.
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All of the answers lay here:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1146236009/0
Terminator
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Parrothead,
I suggest once again that you ignore all references/cute drawings re: filtration and concentrate on the tub that feels best to you. Don't be swayed by the attempted marketing pushed by retailers...both Marquis and HS as well as most other tub manufacturers have more than adequate filtration...any other comments are just marketing.
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Parrothead, I suggest that you use FACTS and LOGIC to reach your own decision and leave the FEELINGS in reserve for your family and friends. Feelings do have their place, but not in evaluating a long-term financial decision concerning a consumer product.
That is my opinion. Others may vary.
Good luck with whichever one you choose, though! :)
Terminator
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The fact is: ALL QUALITY TUBS PROVIDE ADEQUATE FILTRATION!!!!!
None is superior or inferior than another. My tub has hot, clean water and it is not a HS or Marquis. When it is filtering (has a circ pump) it is not bypassing the filter. There is no such thing that a filter or tub will clean 100% of the water ... you'd have to remove all the water from a tub in order to achieve 100% filtration. My tub doesn't have a clean up cycle, doesn't use 5 filters (it has 2) and as long as I properly maintain the water - stays crystal clear.
Sometimes all it is is sales dribble!
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All of the answers lay here:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1146236009/0
Terminator
Wow, Term....that thread ALMOST gave me a splitting headache....I'm still spinning...and that spa fairy.....hmmmmmm? Glad I chose my HS before I read that! ;D The thread didn't sway me in any way from appreciating the HS filtration system (which my wife, a medical professional, loves, BTW), it just woulda sent me to bed for awhile (or to the bar at my local Elks club?) and I woulda gotten my spa a week or so later....
The Doob
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The fact is: ALL QUALITY TUBS PROVIDE ADEQUATE FILTRATION!!!!!
None is superior or inferior than another. My tub has hot, clean water and it is not a HS or Marquis. When it is filtering (has a circ pump) it is not bypassing the filter. There is no such thing that a filter or tub will clean 100% of the water ... you'd have to remove all the water from a tub in order to achieve 100% filtration. My tub doesn't have a clean up cycle, doesn't use 5 filters (it has 2) and as long as I properly maintain the water - stays crystal clear.
Sometimes all it is is sales dribble!
I agee. All the majors have good systems that all work well. The rest is marketing.
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I agee. All the majors have good systems that all work well. The rest is marketing.
I agree that all the majors have filtration that works. Some work different than others. Only you can determine the value of the difference.
It is a [glow]fact[/glow] that with Hot Spring all of the water is filtered all of the time. As Markee stated, on a Marquis (and most other brands) 100% of the water is filtered [glow]during filtration cycles.[/glow] When the jets are on, which is when you are in the spa, bypass kicks in, letting debris circulate freely.
I cannot tell you which system is better; only you can decide. I cannot tell you how much value to put on it; only you can do that.
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Clean water = adequate circulation + adeqaute filtration + adequate sanitation.
Take away one of those 3 componensts and you have dirty water.
There is more than one way to achieve adequate levels of all 3. And if you are buying a premium brand, rest assured that they all do a good job of keeping the water clean.
The rest is all marketing. Don't get hooked on the sales pitch/marketing. Buy what feels best to you and don't worry about the rest.
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Is Hot Spring still the only brand to be independently certified by the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF)? Nearly all filters are certified by the NSF, but I believe that Hot Spring is the only brand where the entire spa is certified.
Who is the NSF? http://www.nsf.org
Not that means you won't have clear water in a premium spa - you will - its just one more level of peace of mind.
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Sundances filter might be certified?
Bottom line is, it doesn't matter what kind of filtration you have, what kind of ozonator you have, how its delivered weather you use nat2, how many gallons a day it filters. If you don't take care of the chems it will bite you in the arse end of story.
Some may just take a bit longer to get to that point,the end result is the same.
And my dad can beat up your's. :P
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I think nearly all spa filters are certified. I'd be surprised if they weren't. The difference with Hot Spring is the entire spa is certified. As far as I know, they are the only spas to have that so far.
In my pool service days I would tell my customers that clean and clear water depends on three things:
Chlorination, Circulation, Filtration
Take one leg of the stool away and it falls down. From my experience, all the premium spas provide the Circulation and Filtration. That leaves the last leg up to the customer.
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The real bottom line is most every spa on the market today will filter the water fine. The most important thing in safe and clean water is to be CONSISTSENT with YOUR water care routine. Both Marquis and Hot Springs do a great job of helping in the way they filter your spa and within each system they both offer some conveniences that the other may not but both at the end of the day do fine.
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All of the answers lay here:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1146236009/0
Terminator
I just finished reading all 10 pages... that is the closest I ever want to be to a debate! I have to say... there were some very good points made... All things considered.....................
Still glad I went with the HS... they rock ;D
But I think I will buy a "special" dishwasher for my filters... don't know if I want my dishes washed the same place as my filters... lol.... YUMMY. ;)
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I believe my figure is accurate on the gallons filtered per day on a HotSpring. The HotSpring circulation pump is called a "SilentFlow 5000", meaning 5000 gallons per day correct? To be fair, more water than that is filtered if the spa is used or if the clean-up cylce is activated.
Like everyone else said, go with a spa that fits you the best that is made by one of the premium manufacturers (HotSpring, Caldera, Marquis, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Dimension One). Don't get caught up in things like this.
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It is a [glow]fact[/glow] that with Hot Spring all of the water is filtered all of the time.
So you are telling me that the laing pump in a Hotspring spa moves ALL the water in the tub through the filter ALL the time?
When Sundance was using the laing pump, the surface water barely moved. I highly doubt that a small circulation pump is forcefull enough to filter ALL the water in a tub, ALL the time. In the meantime, until the main jets are turned on, heavier debris that cannot make it to the surface is allowed to float freely.
On another note, some companies DO have better filtration than others. How much better is hard to determine, but if there are different types of filtration systems, some will be better than others.
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On another note, some companies DO have better filtration than others. How much better is hard to determine, but if there are different types of filtration systems, some will be better than others.
This a very fair statement but I think what is being said here is that most spas on the market today will adequately filter your water, some will make it easier and some simply are better but again most will keep your water clean.
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This a very fair statement but I think what is being said here is that most spas on the market today will adequately filter your water, some will make it easier and some simply are better but again most will keep your water clean.
Agreed.
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It would be cool if a rating agency would get spas from all of the major spa companies and fill them up with dirty water and do tests as to what spa turned the water clear the fastest...
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I know terminator had some pretty cool pictures on one post about a HS being filled by the Fire department with dirty water.... I think with in an hour they were bathing in the tub... Had pics of the filters after.... they looked pretty nasty...but the water looked great!!!! I don't remember where on the site I saw the pics... ??
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It would be cool if a rating agency would get spas from all of the major spa companies and fill them up with dirty water and do tests as to what spa turned the water clear the fastest...
That would be cool, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I think the only outfit that would do this would be Consumer Reports, but the industry is not big enough (unit-wise) for them to test spas. Consumer Digest could, but their ratings tend to be controversial. So, I think we'll have to wait a while.
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Unfortunately, I don't think Consumer's Digest ever sees the spas in person that they award the "Best Buy" to. All of the ratings are pretty bogus.
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It would be cool if a rating agency would get spas from all of the major spa companies and fill them up with dirty water and do tests as to what spa turned the water clear the fastest...
I'm not sure that who does it the fastest is the same as who does it best in normal conditions over a period of time.
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I know terminator had some pretty cool pictures on one post about a HS being filled by the Fire department with dirty water.... I think with in an hour they were bathing in the tub... Had pics of the filters after.... they looked pretty nasty...but the water looked great!!!!
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC03511.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC03515.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC03519.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC03574.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/itsfabulous.jpg)
Term
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See... I knew He would come through with the pics :)
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So you are telling me that the laing pump in a Hotspring spa moves ALL the water in the tub through the filter ALL the time?
To clarify (no pun intended ;)) none of the water is bypassed. It all goes through a filter whenever it circulates.
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Remember this thread? How 'bout this for excellent filtration? (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1175191541/0) I only wish I had taken pics of the filters before washing them...they looked just like Term's filters and rinsed out just fine...still using the same filters currently, too. BTW, subsequent refills have not resulted the same, thank goodness.
Parrothead, there are much more important details to fret when buying a tub...just buy a quality tub that fits you well from a retailer who is in your comfort zone and then enjoy! 8-)
And forget all the marketing rhetoric.