Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: squale on September 24, 2007, 05:51:48 pm
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I just got my 2005 Sundance Altamar home. I bought it used and it has been disconnected for the past 9 months. The prior owners said everything was working 100% when they disconnected it. They THOUGHT it was set up for 60 amp service but weren't sure.
Anyhow, if I look at the jumpers on the board, I have under JP19 = NO JUMPERS AT ALL
under JP9 = 5, 7, 9 are jumped.
I have 60amp service hooked up.
When I turn on the breaker I hear TWO clicks come out of the spa circuit board BUT I get no lcd display and nothing else at all happens, the spa is just dead.
So I called Sundance, they told me that I should ONLY have jumpers 7 and 9 jumped, so I took OFF jumper 5 and tried again. Turned on the circuit breaker, same thing, two click noises came out of the circuit board, no lcd display, nothing.
Does anybody know what is going on here? do I have a bad circuit board, lcd display, etc.?
Thanks
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At this point, I'd bite the bullet and get a service tech out there. They could evaluate your electrical setup to make sure you wired it correctly, they could make sure your circuit board has all the jumpers set correctly and verify if you have 60 amps active, and also diagnose your display problem.
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well I know I have 60 amps definately. It's weird that the circuit board makes 2 click noises when I turn on the breaker, and yet nothing else happens on the display or anything.
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okay did more testing.. the spa is on now and working. Weird this is this however...
on the wires that come OUT of the spa.... there are 2 blacks (power), 1 green (neutral), and then a bare copper wire (ground). Well I hook the 2 blacks and green up to the circuit breaker that is in the spa disconnect box. Then the bare copper wire I hook to the GROUND terminal in the spa disconnect box. When the bare cooper wire is hooked up, the circuit blows. When the bare copper wire is DISCONNECTED from the spa box, the spa turns on and everything works just fine.
Problem is... now it seems the spa IS NOT grounded????? The spa is currently ONLY hooked up with 3 wires..... 2 black and 1 green into the spa disconnect panel. The bare copper wire from the spa is just sitting on the floor NOT hooked up to anything...
why is this? is it dangerous to run the spa WITHOUT the copper wire hooked up?
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okay did more testing.. the spa is on now and working. Â Weird this is this however...
on the wires that come OUT of the spa.... there are 2 blacks (power), 1 green (neutral), and then a bare copper wire (ground). Â Well I hook the 2 blacks and green up to the circuit breaker that is in the spa disconnect box. Â Then the bare copper wire I hook to the GROUND terminal in the spa disconnect box. Â When the bare cooper wire is hooked up, the circuit blows. Â When the bare copper wire is DISCONNECTED from the spa box, the spa turns on and everything works just fine.
Problem is... now it seems the spa IS NOT grounded????? Â The spa is currently ONLY hooked up with 3 wires..... 2 black and 1 green into the spa disconnect panel. Â The bare copper wire from the spa is just sitting on the floor NOT hooked up to anything...
why is this? Â is it dangerous to run the spa WITHOUT the copper wire hooked up?
Now, I am not going to pretend I know anything about wiring a spa, but aren't Sundance Spas three wire hookups?
I am going to make a suggestion. Â Go to the forum at www.rhtubs.com. Â There are two techs who post regularly there..n1oty and Rob...who are Sundance experts and help many people. Â If you post your questions there, I'll bet you get some very detailed answers back.
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I think I figured it out.. that bare copper wire coming from the spa SHOULD NOT be used at all. Instead only the 2 power wires and the 1 green neutral wire out of the spa should be used. The green neutral wire out of the spa SHOULD be connected to the GROUND lug on the spa disconnect panel. Before I had the green wire out of the spa connected to the load neutral on the GFCI which was wrong.
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When you say it is a 3-wire setup (and it also says this on the cover of the sentry control box inside the tub) does that mean you only need to hook up a total of 3 wires coming OUT of the hot tub into your GFCI spa disconnect box? I always thought that you needed to hook up 4 wires, 2 power, 1 neutral (green), and then a bare copper (ground) wire.
But when I did this the tub kept throwing the breaker. If I DO NOT hook up the bare copper ground wire at all then the tub works fine. Instead I put the Green wire coming out of the hottub to the Ground bar located inside my spa disconnect panel.
So that means I now ONLY have 3 wires coming out of my hottub connected.
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When you say it is a 3-wire setup (and it also says this on the cover of the sentry control box inside the tub) does that mean you only need to hook up a total of 3 wires coming OUT of the hot tub into your GFCI spa disconnect box? Â I always thought that you needed to hook up 4 wires, 2 power, 1 neutral (green), and then a bare copper (ground) wire.
But when I did this the tub kept throwing the breaker. Â If I DO NOT hook up the bare copper ground wire at all then the tub works fine. Â Instead I put the Green wire coming out of the hottub to the Ground bar located inside my spa disconnect panel.
So that means I now ONLY have 3 wires coming out of my hottub connected.
I am not qualified to answer that question. Â That is why I suggested posting at the Doc's forum. Â They answer these type questions regularly. Â Be prepared, though, as you may get a remark such as...if you have to ask this question you should get a licensed electrician to install. ;)
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I would, at the very least, consult a Sundance dealer. Do you have a manual for the spa? That should tell you what you need to know. It does not seem to me that connecting the wires in different ways to see what happens is a very wise thing to do. You could damage the spa, or do something that could otherwise be hazardous.
txwillie
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well it's hooked up according to the manual. I was just concerned because I am NOT using the bare copper ground wire coming from the spa anymore. I ONLY have 3 wires in total from the spa hooked up... 2 power, 1 ground (green).
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Your terminology is a teeny bit confusing. Â There are wires going TO your spa, not from it. Â
 From your disconnect (GFI) to your spa you need to run the 2 hots and the insulated ground.  No neutral is necessary- don't connect one to your ground bus or to the bonding lug.  Each hot provides 120 volts for a total of 220.
That is exactly what a 3 Â wires setup is. Â The reason for the neutral in a 220 volt circuit is to provide a 120V leg. Â Many (most?) 220v spas need a 4 wire circuit becase some components in the spa need 120 volts, like the lights. Â The heaters and pumps use 220, provided by the 2 hot leads. Â
Sundance uses a transformer to power the components in the spa that don't run on 220- like the lights, and radio, etc..... Â They chose to not use any 120 volt components in some of their spas for whatever reason.
Make sense?
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I am not qualified to answer that question. Â That is why I suggested posting at the Doc's forum. Â They answer these type questions regularly. Â Be prepared, though, as you may get a remark such as...if you have to ask this question you should get a licensed electrician to install. ;)
I just saw your post over there...and you got the remark :(. Â Stick with them and you will get your answers, but Brewman looks like he'll get you to the proper result here. :)
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Brewman, thanks for the help. So basically if you look at the 2005 Sundance Altamar owners manual off of the sundance website, go to page 49 and look at the diagram labelled 'B'.
That is how my wires are hooked up. The green wire coming from the spa (insulated ground) is hooked up to the Ground lug inside the Spa disconnect box. There is a bare copper wire coming out of the spa too, I think the prior owner's electrician put that in and didn't realize he didn't need it. So that bare copper wire just sits on the floor right now and isn't connected to anything.
Is there a way I can test to make sure the GFI will trip if there is a ground fault? I guess how can I make a ground fault and not mess up anything in the hottub or myself? I was thinking of just disconnecting the green (ground) wire coming from the spa inside the Siemans spa disconnect box while the spa is running.. I think if the ground gets disconnected the GFI should trip right? Will this damage anything inside the tub?
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Brewman nailed it! No 110v components like most manufacturers have so no need for the neutral, trust me your spa is still grounded and will trip the breaker if there is a problem, all the lights and stereo are converted to 12v.
It was converted to 60amp already wasnt it?? Way to tell run pumps on high speed if the heater icon stays on its set for 60.
As far as leaking goes you will know there will be a constant wet area of you will see water running out from underneath.
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GFI breakers are very sensitive, and if your spa is running okay, and the breaker isn't tripping, you should be good to go. Â If you hook the breaker up wrong, it'd trip.
You can test the breaker itself using the test button on the breaker, but I wouldn't try and simulate a ground fault. Â I'm not sure how I'd do that.
I'm not an electrician, nor a spa tech, so I really don't know if your plan with removing the ground wire from the disconnect would be a good or safe test.
Or if it would damage anything.
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We get this all the time from electrical inspectors they believe the spa should have a neutral wire hooked up,which as squale has mentioned it trips the breaker and will not run. I tell them to stick there fingers in there and poke around and see if it trips. They never do? ::)
Its all so the reason there is a big orange sticker on there that says attention electrician this is a 3 wire appliance.
But they still dont get it.
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well what I just don't like is the fact that the green wire from the spa is going to the grounding lug on the spa disconnect box. Then I have 6/3 romex wire running from my Square D panel in my house to the spa disconnect box. So the bare copper ground in the 6/3 connects to the same grounding lug as the green wire from the spa connects to. Thus if there is a ground fault, power will need to go through the green wire from the spa, then through the bare copper wire in the 6/3 all the way back to my main panel in the house, then BACK to the spa disconnect box via the WHITE wire, and the white wire is hooked to the Neutral Bus in the spa disconnect panel. The neutral bus is connected to the gfci via the pigtail.
It would seem more wise to me that the green ground wire from the spa be connected directly to the neutral bus on the spa disconnect panel INSTEAD of the ground lug inside that panel. Because inside the 6/3 wire BOTH the white and the bare copper ground wire are both grounded inside the main panel. Thus if you connect the green wire from the spa to EITHER the neutral bus OR the grounding lug inside the spa disconnect panel, they both should do the same thing because they both are grounded back at the main panel. It would just seem that if you connect the green wire to the neutral bus and there was a ground fault that the gfci would trip QUICKER because it wouldn't have to go all the way back to the main panel first.
does any of this make sense?
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I didn't think Romex was the proper wire to use on a portable spa.
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I cant comment on the romex but the way its wired works, and if theres a problem it will trip quicker than you can say Sundance. Quit worrying about it and enjoy the spa,if you are that concerned about it call an electrician!
You cant trust a bunch of ax murdering spa owners. 8-)
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There a a couple things wrong with using Romex cable for a spa whip. One is the uninsulated ground. NEC calls for an insulated ground.
And Romex run in a conduit is subject to de-rating. Basically that means that the allowable amperage maximum could be less than the standard 60 amps.
Really, it's just a code issue, and it may or may not be enforced that way in your area.
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yes the hottub is working fine, but that's not my concern, my concern is WILL the GFI work fine if there is a ground fault? That's the only real way for me to be certain everything is good.. That's why I was thinking of ways to enforce a ground fault and see if the breaker trips.
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My thoughts are that if you spa is working and your breaker isn't tripping, you have nothing to worry about. These breakers are pretty sensitive and if you had anything amiss, you'd be tripping the GFI. So I think you're good to go as far as that is concerned. I don't know if there is enough expertise on this board to advise you on simulating a ground fault. Maybe a pro would be useful, but you'd probably have to pay for their time.
Maybe have the local inspector pay a visit. Most locale's require a permit and inspection for this type of thing, and a inspector would quickly let you know if you have your spa wired safely.
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Okay I took some pictures this morning I want you to check out. These are pictures of the wiring inside the Siemans 60amp GFI spa disconnect box. Here are links to the pictures...
(http://www.jkevin.com/_PICTURES/spabox/1.jpg)
(http://www.jkevin.com/_PICTURES/spabox/2.jpg)
(http://www.jkevin.com/_PICTURES/spabox/3.jpg)
(http://www.jkevin.com/_PICTURES/spabox/4.jpg)
As I said the green wire coming from the spa is connected to the GROUND bar inside the spa disconnect panel. The other side of this green wire is connected to the GROUND block inside the spa panel.
Inside the spa panel where the ground terminal is. I have a few different bare copper wires connected there. If I feel back to where these bare wires go, one of them goes to Pump 1, another one goes to I believe Pump 2 but I can't trace it all the way back because there is a wall where the wire goes through. Then another wire goes to what I believe is the blower. When I picked the spa up, there were 2 bare copper ground wires sticking out of either side of the spa. These bare copper wires are also attached to the ground bar inside the spa panel. I believe these ground wires might of gone to a grounding rod inside the ground. Now these 2 bare copper wires don't attach to anything, I just cut them short and wrapped them up and put them inside the spa panel to hide them.
Like I said, there are only 3 wires in total that come from the spa and hook into the Siemans 60amp GFI Spa Disconnect panel which is mounted on the wall 5 foot away from the spa. There is the green wire which is attached to the ground bar in the spa panel. This green wire attaches to the ground bar inside the spa disconnect box as you can see in the pictures. Then there are the 2 power wires which are straightforward how they hook up.
So does that help any with the pictures?
The connection of the 6/3 Romex at the main house's Square D box is correct, the two powers go to the 60amp NON-GFI breaker inside the panel, and the White wire AND bare copper wire both go to the grounding terminal inside the Square D box.
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Helps a lot! And it looks fine and that is how its suppose to look,just like the 3 spas I have running on the showroom here!!
Relax it is fine!!!
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so I guess the bare copper wire that is connected to the ground terminal on the spa (I think TB3 it's called) and is just hanging out of the cabinent right now.. well I guess I can just disconnect that wire and remove it totally right?
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Yes, some inspectors here anyway require the spa to be grounded outside of the spa to a grounding rod,they also want any metal within 5 ft of the spa grounded to the spa, porch lights,downspouts,window frames if metal.
There is also a code here that states anything with in the space above the tub within 15ft must be grounded also