Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: solo on September 14, 2007, 09:06:00 am
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If you've followed my posts, you know that I have settled on one fo 2 spas: The Sundance Hamilton (700 series, 400 gallon tub) and the Hot Springs Sovereign (355 gallon tub).
Sundance Price: $6895
HotSprings Price: $6995
This isn't necessarily about pricing and which tub is better though. I am wet testing each tub in the next week (visits already scheduled) and will offer the one I like best.
My question is this: Would you ask for any additional freebies for paying cash/check? The hotsprings dealer will throw in the cover lifter already if you pay cash/check. The Sundance Dealer hasn't offered any freebies. The Sundance Spa does not come with an ozonator. I am thinking to ask for the either the lifter, the ozonator, or both with a cash offer.
Paying cash saves the dealer the 2-3% they would give to the credit card which is $140-200.
Thoughts?
My theory is that it can't hurt to ask and that most dealers are more likely to give freebies than drop the price further.
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You are right on regarding the reasonable value of a cash discount vs. credit card and that dealers would typically prefer the freebie vs. lowering the price.
It sounds like HS is already throwing in lifter for cash price.
Good luck. ;)
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The hotsprings dealer will throw in the cover lifter already if you pay cash/check.
My theory is that it can't hurt to ask and that most dealers are more likely to give freebies than drop the price further.
Since one dealer has already indicated he'd sweeten the deal if you paid cash then I'd certainly ask the second dealer.
You're right, it never hurts to ask. Some will not do it, some will not but nobody will have issue with you asking because that gets requested fairly often.
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Solo, you're certainly correct about the 3% savings to the dealer. If you wind up choosing the Sundance, my suggestion would be to ask the dealer for the freebie. If he says no, then if you have a credit card with cash back/rewards, you can always use the credit card...
Out of curiosity, what IS included in the prices you were quoted on each side?
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Included:
Hot Springs...Spa, cover, steps, starter pack on chemicals. If you pay cash, they throw in the cover lifter.
Sundance..Spa, cover steps, starter pack of chemicals. No cash offer. This spa does not have an ozonator (but does have 2 pumps where the HS has only 1).
Presently leaning towards the Sundance, but I want the ozonator and the Cover lifter thrown in. That sales rep isn't high on ozonators and I don't think they are really needed, but it's just something I kind of want.
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Keep in mind, the Hot Spring price also includes your electrical subpanel. More than likely, the Sundance does not. I'd check into that as well. A box at Home Depot can run around $100 - $150.
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One of the reasons they include (if they cant sell it to them first) the sub panel is because you cant buy them any where that I know of, could be wrong, or can you buy such a thing at Lowes/Home depot?
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One of the reasons they include (if they cant sell it to them first) the sub panel is because you cant buy them any where that I know of, could be wrong, or can you buy such a thing at Lowes/Home depot?
Any electrician can fabricate the sub panel. It is included because so many homeowners think they know what they are doing, ignore the pre-delivery instructions and buy the cheap box at the mass merchant. Then they are disappointed when they cannot wire it.
guess whose fault it is! >:(
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You'll never know until you ask the other dealer....sounds like both prices are well with in lines of other'sposted here on this forum. good luck.
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One of the reasons they include (if they cant sell it to them first) the sub panel is because you cant buy them any where that I know of, could be wrong, or can you buy such a thing at Lowes/Home depot?
Jim,
I'm not sure about the US market but, here in Canada Home Depot sells both Siemens and Square D GFCI breaker panels for spas, prices range from $125 to $250 pending size.
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Jim,
I'm not sure about the US market but, here in Canada Home Depot sells both Siemens and Square D GFCI breaker panels for spas, prices range from $125 to $250 pending size.
I am guessing those are the standard 50 amp spa breaker panels. Hot Spring requires a box with a 30 amp and a 20 amp breaker. 50 amps from the main, then it splits.
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Never Mind :-[
You Hot Springs guys just gotta be difficult eh ;)
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Hey Canada eh,
Is it not cold enough to be soakin'???? ;D ;D ;D
HS guy's are touchy....HS gal's are worse.... ;)
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A 60 amp Hot tub Panel at Lowes is $80 here in the STL. That was $35 cheaper than my friend who is an IBEW electrician could get it for through his employer's distributor. It was the exact same thing.
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Although 60amp boxes can be had at the Home Improvement stores, isn't the point here that the 60amp panel from these places won't work with the Hot Springs due to it's "different" wiring, right? If so, do you run two sets of wires to a Hot Springs if they DON"T include the panel? If so, then it seems that Hot Springs almost HAS to include the panel (in order to be apples-to-apples) with the Sun Dance, right?
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That sales rep isn't high on ozonators and I don't think they are really needed, but it's just something I kind of want.
I wonder how he/she would feel about it if it was standard like it is on the Sovereign :-?
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I wonder how he/she would feel about it if it was standard like it is on the Sovereign :-?
I believe Sundance offers three different CD ozonators for their spas now. Biguanide users are generally advised to not use an ozonator. Some people may just not want an ozonator. I have removed mine and do not (at this time) intend to replace it. Ozone is not a slam dunk and you shouldn't have to pay for it if you don't want it.
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I believe Sundance offers three different CD ozonators for their spas now. Biguanide users are generally advised to not use an ozonator. Some people may just not want an ozonator. I have removed mine and do not (at this time) intend to replace it. Ozone is not a slam dunk and you shouldn't have to pay for it if you don't want it.
Tony,
The market has made ozone a slam dunk. You are the exception that proves the rule.
I think Spiderman's question was more about salesmanship than ozone.
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Tony,
The market has made ozone a slam dunk. You are the exception that proves the rule.
I think Spiderman's question was more about salesmanship than ozone.
I agree. The market has made ozone a slam dunk. Its all fed by the no maintenance/no sanitizer spa and that is salesmanship. ;)
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Need to also keep in mind, HSS are only 50 Amps. 60 Amps draws a lot more power and many homes do not have the space for 60 Amps, so they have to have an electrician add another panel.
One of the reasons HSS splits the breakers is to put the heater on one breaker and the pumps on another breaker. That way, if, for some reason, the heater causes a breaker to trip, the pump will still work. This is beneficial in keeping the water circulating until the trip is discovered. You can imagine some people wouldn't discover their breaker had tripped for days and then come out to water that has just been sitting.
It also helps in cold climates. The water will still move in the spa and not freeze.
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Need to also keep in mind, HSS are only 50 Amps. 60 Amps draws a lot more power and many homes do not have the space for 60 Amps, so they have to have an electrician add another panel.
One of the reasons HSS splits the breakers is to put the heater on one breaker and the pumps on another breaker. That way, if, for some reason, the heater causes a breaker to trip, the pump will still work. This is beneficial in keeping the water circulating until the trip is discovered. You can imagine some people wouldn't discover their breaker had tripped for days and then come out to water that has just been sitting.
It also helps in cold climates. The water will still move in the spa and not freeze.
I always listen for the hum of the circ pump whenever I put my dog out in the morning ... a reassuring sound.
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Need to also keep in mind, HSS are only 50 Amps. 60 Amps draws a lot more power and many homes do not have the space for 60 Amps, so they have to have an electrician add another panel.
One of the reasons HSS splits the breakers is to put the heater on one breaker and the pumps on another breaker. That way, if, for some reason, the heater causes a breaker to trip, the pump will still work. This is beneficial in keeping the water circulating until the trip is discovered. You can imagine some people wouldn't discover their breaker had tripped for days and then come out to water that has just been sitting.
It also helps in cold climates. The water will still move in the spa and not freeze.
Doesn't HotSpring split their 120 and 240 through the breaker?
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I agree. The market has made ozone a slam dunk. Its all fed by the no maintenance/no sanitizer spa and that is salesmanship. ;)
Although I'm not 100% sold on ozone, I do think it does a little somethng. When I had my ozone running 24/7 I found I got an extra day of clear water. Clear water is not indicative of a bacteria free tub but it must have been doing something. I usually run my ozonator about 8 hours a day.
My tub will be 3 YO next June and I am planning on adding a stronger ozonator along with a length of tubing (14 to 20 feet) to act as a contact chamber. I'm thinking and maybe wrongly so that if the low output ozonator and the 10 feet (?) of tubing that is used now does a little something that a higher output ozonator with 24 to 30 feet of tubing to act as a contact chamber may do a little bit more.
I am amazed at how people report different results on how ozone works for them. I would like to see if more ozone plus more contact time will result in longer lasting water between doses.
If it doesn't do anything, I'll be out $200 for the experiment. If it does do something, I'll still be out $200 but I satisfied my curiosity.
I am also amazed that the industry is promoting how well ozone works, it's even spreading into the pool industry now. Maybe one day ozone can be seen as a primary sanitizer/oxidizer but we're noit there yet.
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The HS GFGI breaker is an unusual animal, and unqiue to HS. So if it fails, and it will, you have to return to HS and purchase a new one. The proper line of questioning, I guess, would be what is the replacement cost of the special HS GFCI breaker? Remember this.....nothing is thrown in for free. The off the shelve breaker is easy to repair, just go to HD and pick it up. All GFCI breakers have a life span. I wouldn't buy a hot tub based on whether it includes a breaker.....look much more deeply at the product, what do you want in a tub? Good Luck....Tom
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If you want your deal to go real smooth and with no hassle, you say the dealer offered you a price of 6995.00 telling him you will not pay a penny more than 7500.00 plus tax it will make things much better and easier.... ;)
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Need to also keep in mind, HSS are only 50 Amps. 60 Amps draws a lot more power and many homes do not have the space for 60 Amps, so they have to have an electrician add another panel.
One of the reasons HSS splits the breakers is to put the heater on one breaker and the pumps on another breaker. That way, if, for some reason, the heater causes a breaker to trip, the pump will still work. This is beneficial in keeping the water circulating until the trip is discovered. You can imagine some people wouldn't discover their breaker had tripped for days and then come out to water that has just been sitting.
It also helps in cold climates. The water will still move in the spa and not freeze.
You can hook just about any spa on 50 amps and it will run fine. Also not that it matters much HS spas use some 110v components where as Sundance and Jacuzzi do not in the upper lines.
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Although I'm not 100% sold on ozone, I do think it does a little something....
I'm thinking and maybe wrongly so that if the low output ozonator and the 10 feet (?) of tubing that is used now does a little something that a higher output ozonator with 24 to 30 feet of tubing to act as a contact chamber may do a little bit more.
If it doesn't do anything, I'll be out $200 for the experiment. If it does do something, I'll still be out $200 but I satisfied my curiosity.
Do some more research before wasting the $200. Mfg's have put a fair amount of research into this and (most likely) your tub is set up optimally already. At one time there was a lot of discussion on this and the other boards about "contact chambers" but the result was that this was mostly "market-techure" rather than anything substantial. Ozone is a short-life element and requires exposure to a large amount of water in order to be effective. Most restrictive "chambers" hold too little water to be effective for treating an entire tub. But don't take my word for it, due more research online.
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The HS GFGI breaker is an unusual animal, and unqiue to HS. So if it fails, and it will, you have to return to HS and purchase a new one. The proper line of questioning, I guess, would be what is the replacement cost of the special HS GFCI breaker? Remember this.....nothing is thrown in for free. The off the shelve breaker is easy to repair, just go to HD and pick it up. All GFCI breakers have a life span. I wouldn't buy a hot tub based on whether it includes a breaker.....look much more deeply at the product, what do you want in a tub? Good Luck....Tom
The breakers are standard GE or Square D GFCI breakers.
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Do some more research before wasting the $200. Mfg's have put a fair amount of research into this and (most likely) your tub is set up optimally already. At one time there was a lot of discussion on this and the other boards about "contact chambers" but the result was that this was mostly "market-techure" rather than anything substantial. Ozone is a short-life element and requires exposure to a large amount of water in order to be effective. Most restrictive "chambers" hold too little water to be effective for treating an entire tub. But don't take my word for it, due more research online.
I was fence sitting on this and my tub has about 10' of tubing based on my limited calculation on where the ozone injector is and where the exit port for the circ pump is. I remember Chas saying how he upgrades the older HS ozonators to current levels and adds a 14' length of tubing to eliminate off gassing. I was basing my upgrade on this. My tub came with the contact chamber option and I didn't get it because the dealer and I thought it was a waste of money.
I have not been able to find any hard evidence of spa ozonators, I only find info on drinking water ozonators at the treatment plant levels. I do know they are not the same as far as technique and effectiveness. Please point me in the right direction to the spa info.
My understanding is the contact chamber is there to give ozone a chance to be absorbed even if it only lasts 22 seconds in over 100º water. My idea is if an ozone molecule either bumps into or gets electrically attracted to something during it's travel in the "contact chamber" that it will be more effective than in the open vastness of the tub. 22 seconds is not a long time I know but I have a high rate circ pump and it moves a fair amount of water so ozone would be introduced to "a lot of" water in a 24' contact tube - certainly not the whole tub's volume.
I was going to start a more in depth discussion closer to the time for me to actually do it. Maybe I'll just scap the idea ... I'll give it more thought.
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I know ozonators are very popular in Europe, for pools if not for spas (from what I've read spas are just starting to catch on over there). Some manufacturers have stated that many companies in Europe started using ozone in their water supplies when Americans started using chlorine, so they have a lot more experience with it. I also read that 300,000 pools in Europe use ozone for their primary sanitizer. There are stories that Olympic swimming teams from Europe have been surprised to come to the states and refused to swim in our chlorine-infested waters, as they just weren't used to the smell, the eye-burning chemicals, etc. So, I have no idea how true these stories are, but the point is that ozone CAN be an effective primary sanitizer. Whether North American hot tub companies have created effective ozonators- or whether it's even possible on such a small scale- is a different question.
I would really like to see a manufacturer do a clean-sheet design of an ozone-based spa. It might require a different shell (no pillows, like Marquis), or a special hard cover, or even different plumbing (ozone circulating through the entire pump system, instead of just the circ pump). It would be expensive to design such a thing, but I think they'd have a great seller on their hands.
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Here in the U.S. we do use ozone in our drinking water supply and I believe new commercial pools and Olympic training pools are starting to use ozone as well. I think the difference is HOW ozone is introduced into the water.
All of my research has shown that for drinking water ozone is injected into a large chamber against the flow of water and possibly pressurized to give it time to work and force absorbtion. It may be put into a couple of chambers working this way with some type of device to monitor the amount of ozone in the water itself. Cold water holds ozone longer (swimming pools) but here in the States chlorine is injected because ozone really has no residual effect, I don't know if this is true in Europe.
Remember that we are usually talking ozonators for spas or pools that are 110 Volts and probably 2 or 3 amps and run on 21% O2 (air's standard amount of oxygen), for drinking water they use huge ozonators with 100% O2. Olympic swimmng pools in Europe may use drinking water technology and if a swimming pool can keep ozone in them for 2 minutes vs 22 sec of a spa, there may be a difference. Also, bacteria doubles every 20 minutes in spa temperature water where it may take an hour or more for bacteria to double in pool temperature water. The little bit of info I 've seen for pools puts the ozonator right after the filter so it has about 6 feet or so (above ground pool) to get back into the pool. Once the bubbles hit the water's surface they are done "mixing" and are not effective.
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Back to the OP question..
Never settle for the offer they gave you.. always ask for more.. Especially when paying cash. The lift is $250 to $300, so if you get it included, that is the approximate discount. Steps are overrated in my opinion, I built mine with composite decking material for about $40. The gfci box is an expense that the HS throws in. The HS box does indeed have a slot for a 110v breaker, although it is not in there when you get it. This allows for adding lighting without having to run additional wiring.. most lighting does not draw enough to be a problem with overall current draw on the circuit, or imbalancing the legs.
I look at it this way: The spa dealer is always going to shoot you a price that has a little room to come down. It is like buying a new car.. there is a lot of competition and they know they will have to make their deal as sweet or sweeter than the competitors if they want the sale.. I cannot imagine a spa dealer that has so much business that he will not be willing to deal.. if that is the case then you are probably better off with his competitor.
Ask both of them to sharpen the pencil a little, THEN if you decide on the Sundance, AFTER they sharpen the pencil, offer cash/check and get them to throw in some added value, or reduce the price further. If they won't go down and you still want that tub, pull out the credit card and remind them that it costs them an extra 2-3% if you charge it.. it only makes sense to them to give you something or reduce the price by a hundred or two.. Everyone pays credit card fees.
If you really want to get the best price, don't be afraid to walk out if they won't deal. Once again, unless they have so much business they really don't need your sale, watching a $7k sale walk out the door will make any salesman reconsider.
Oh by the way, for a 3% increase in the cost of the product, adding ozone is, in my opinion, a smart buy.. worst case scenario your water is a little cleaner.. I look at it this way: Ozone does sanitize water, its just a matter of how well it does it in a spa.. so at the very worst, you are sanitizing a little. BTW, I go sometimes 2 weeks without using my tub in the summer and if the water was clean to start with, it is clean after 2 weeks of no chems.. I use a HS with ozone and silver ion.