Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: erincs on August 02, 2007, 09:35:40 pm
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Hey Everyone!
What a great site! I've learned lots already, and look forward to learning so much more!
We're proud new owners of a Coast Helios spa (well, as of tomorrow, when it's delivered). Our dealer has suggested using lithium as our sanitizer. We have the ozone system as well.
I've searched this forum, and it doesn't seem that anyone uses lithium in their tubs. Does anyone have any info on it? It seems like it's really easy, since it's a one-step chemical. My parents use bromine and they have a 2-step program.
Our guidelines say that we need to add Spa ProtectAll once per week (to prevent corrosion and deposits), litium daily or every other day, and Spa Perfect once per week (an enzyme to keep the water clear, reduce foam, chemical smell and scum line).
Does this sound realistic? Thanks!
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Lithium hypochlorite I'm assuming? And what brand is it? What percentage active ingredients, etc?
I manage a hot tub/pool store and the only thing we use lithium-hypo for is pools, as it's pretty potent. I've never heard of anyone using it for a hot tub, but I suppose it's possible, however it seems like a ridiculous (and expensive) extreme vs. just using chlorine (di-chlor).
I'm in the minority here, but I prefer bromine over chlorine for hot tubs due to the fact chlorine dissapates faster in the hot water and is less effective in a higher pH than bromine is (the hotter water is, the higher pH will tend to be. Anything over 7.6 pH and chlorine becomes less effective at a rate of about 10x's for every 0.2 pH)
Which is better, however, is an arguement that will go on forever. If you do it right, both systems will do the job adequately.
I'd be curious as to more info on the lithium. Any other dealers out there use it?
Final opinion, if your dealer supports you in it, go with it. If you're new to the chemical world, your dealer should always be your first choice as far as advice. You trusted them enough to drop a few grand on a tub, let them help you with the rest.
If after that, you aren't happy with the results ($$$ or performance) then try elsewhere.
Good luck with which ever option you take and congrats on the new tub!
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Thanks T&C.
Yes, you're correct, it's lithium hypochlorite. I'm not sure what brand they sell, as I haven't bought any yet (i'm just reading off the maintenance sheet they gave us). So, I'm also not sure on the active ingredient percentage. We're supposed to add 2 Tbsp daily, and 3 tbsp as a shock if needed.
The 2 other dealers we looked at also suggested it, and told us the smell was less than if we used bromine. The only difference was that they each sell a 2-step program, and our dealer's brand is a one-step program.
We were told that we would be adding chlorine constantly, because it would burn off so quickly and becomes ineffective at higher temps. Is this not accurate?
So much to learn...
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Thanks T&C.
Yes, you're correct, it's lithium hypochlorite. I'm not sure what brand they sell, as I haven't bought any yet (i'm just reading off the maintenance sheet they gave us). So, I'm also not sure on the active ingredient percentage. We're supposed to add 2 Tbsp daily, and 3 tbsp as a shock if needed.
The 2 other dealers we looked at also suggested it, and told us the smell was less than if we used bromine. The only difference was that they each sell a 2-step program, and our dealer's brand is a one-step program.
We were told that we would be adding chlorine constantly, because it would burn off so quickly and becomes ineffective at higher temps. Is this not accurate?
So much to learn...
I'm always curious as to what other dealers suggest, because I think there's always something new to learn, so what is their "one step program"? Sounds like the Spa Protect and the Spa Perfect make it a 3-step process.
As far as the lithium vs. having to add the chlorine all the time, that's completely false. Lithium is a HYPO-chlorite, meaning it is very fast acting, which has it's benefits. However, it is fast in, fast acting, and fast out. That's why pool owners use it as a shock because they don't have to worry about the chlorine levels being sky high for days on end.
I typically suggest using a bromine floater, shock once a week with a di-chlor based shock and using a Stain and Scale type product (like the Spa Protect they suggested) weekly as well. For best results, keep the shock and stain & scale products seperated by 3-4 days. We recommend shock on Sunday, Stain and Scale on Wednesday.
Like I said though, there are a lot of really good systems, and if your dealer is confident in this one, and especially if you are going to have them test your water on a frequent basis (once ever 2 weeks or so), try it. It's very simple to switch to bromine from any chlorine based system. All you do is start adding bromine.
BTW, any rough costs on the lithium vs di-chlor? Reason I ask is there is only one company that produces Lithium hypo-chlorite. They just repackage it for numerous companies.
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By any chance are you in Canada? It seems more popular in Canada for some reason. Most of us here use dichlor--another name for standard spa chlorine.
Here's an old post about Lithium Hypochlorite. I know a few people who love the stuff.
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1155585514/1#1
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Lithium hypochlorite is one of the more recently developed forms of chlorine. It is produced by bubbling chlorine gas through a solution of lithium, sodium and potassium sulfates. When dried, the result is a free-flowing powder that provides only 35% available chlorine.
Lithium hypochlorite is calcium free, dust free and non-flammable. It has a long shelf life, and because it contains no calcium, it dissolves very rapidly without clouding or raising calcium levels. Because it dissolves so rapidly, it cannot be used in a dry-chlorine feeder and must be applied by hand. It has a high pH of 10.7, and neutralizing it requires about 4 ounces of muriatic acid per pound of lithium hypochlorite.
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Yes Goboman, I'm in Ontario Canada. I'll give my dealer the 20 questions today, and post back with his reply. Thanks for all the input so far.
And by 2-step vs. 1-step, I meant for the daily additions of chemicals.
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We have many customers who use Lithium with ozone and Nature2.
I am confused how Lithium can be part of a 2 step program.
You still need to balance the water.
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I like using Lithium in tubs. It's not the most cost-efficient, but with our customers who try to nickel-and-dime their chlorine level using dichlor, it definitely helps. Dissolves quickly, doesn't cloud the water, doesn't mess with the alkalinity (with the exception of the increased pH Decreaser needed), and always leaves the water sparkling.
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I like using Lithium in tubs. It's not the most cost-efficient, but with our customers who try to nickel-and-dime their chlorine level using dichlor, it definitely helps. Dissolves quickly, doesn't cloud the water, doesn't mess with the alkalinity (with the exception of the increased pH Decreaser needed), and always leaves the water sparkling.
What do you mean "nickel and dime using dichlor" ?
The only differences that I know of is dichlor has stabilizer and has more active chlorine than Lithium.
My tub on dichlor is pretty PH stable, I adjust it every 3 weeks or so; never have cloudy water unless I miss dosing and then that's NOT from the chlorine :o and it always dissolves quickly.
Let us know!
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A lot of our customers choose to be less diligent than they should be. We've actually had one lady try and claim Hot Spring owed her a new tub because hers wasn't holding chlorine. She was being scheisty about adding the chlorine, and was never holding much of a level. We put her on a combination of dichlor and lithium- manually tested her CYA until she was at a level of about 30-40 ppm, then had her use only lithium.
It's worked well so far, and she's backed off on her ludicrous demand for a new spa.
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Do you find people who use dichlor exclusively have problems?
I only ask because most spa people know nothing about CYA ( some pool people don't either) and I always wondered about the effect CYA had on killing bacteria vs algea. My only reassurance was posts made by Vermonter over at Doc's place a few years ago and he tested his tub to the hilt. I recently had a scary discussion over at a pool forum about spas.
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Lithium hypo is a great shock but due to the available chlorine content, it will dissipate quicker. Dichlor will give you a longer, sustained chlorine residual if you are using a granular system to maintain chlorine readings. Lithium can work well with a puck system but as mentioned, it does have a high pH and can draw up your pH over time.
In the 10 years I sold it, I wouldn't say it's far more expensive but instead, slightly higher.
Steve
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OK, so lithium comes in pucks too. I thought it was only granular.
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Lithium is only granular. When used in conjunction with trichlor (not recommended for spas) it gives a nice even balance because the pucks will feed in with a pH of 2.9.
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Lithium is only granular. When used in conjunction with trichlor (not recommended for spas) it gives a nice even balance because the pucks will feed in with a pH of 2.9.
[size=22]Xactly![/size] ;)
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Okay, so they didn't really have any answers for me as to why they suggest lithium over bromine. So, I did what you wise people suggested, and went with what they suggested for now. I'm glad to hear that some other people on here have used it with success.
The lithium gives off a much different smell, that has so far, caused me to cough while in the tub with the jets going, but I suppose I may get used to it.
The important thing is, that after waiting 14 weeks for delivery (but that's a whole other dealer issue), our tub is installed, and feels wonderful!! We got the 60 jet platinum series tub, and every seat does a different job. It's fantastic!!
So far, I find the cover lifter a complete waste. I'm glad we went for the undermount, instead of the side mount, so I don't have holes in the side of the tub when we remove it.
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So far, I find the cover lifter a complete waste. I'm glad we went for the undermount, instead of the side mount, so I don't have holes in the side of the tub when we remove it.
If you live in a climate that experiences harsh winter weather, you'll be thankful you have it.
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Free Chlorine (FC) is not supposed to smell unless you put too much in. Did you shock the tub before using it? What you may be smelling is the combined chlorine (CC) which does smell.
Do you have any readings - if you have strips - get rid of them and get a kit - a Taylor K-2005.
Lithium has less active chlorine than dichlor and the amount to put is by measuring the amount of FC 20 minutes after adding and you are shooting for 3 PPM.
After knowing that your tub is biologically safe many people here add their chlorine after they soak so not to be soaking in chlorine.
As far as the cover lifter - some people love it and I guess some don't. As Chad said - when it's 20º outside with snow on the ground, I'm glad that I'm not struggling with that 8 foot beast!
Post some water numbers and we'll try to help!
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The lithium gives off a much different smell, that has so far, caused me to cough while in the tub with the jets going, but I suppose I may get used to it.
The other thing to check is pH. I know a lot of people that will cough if their pH is really low. Makes sense because the steam would be acidic also.
Only other thing I can think of is that either your tub was still oxidizing off waste (still shocking, basically) or that there was a extremely high amount of chloramines (dead chlorine - the difference between free available and total chlorine, if you want to test for it.)
Either way, you shouldn't have a hard time breathing while in your tub. If you're unsure, take a sample back to your dealer next time this happens.
Regardless, glad you are enjoying your tub and welcome to the club!!!