Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Chris_H on March 12, 2007, 05:33:12 pm
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Consumer’s Digest Best Buys were rated for the Hotspring, Sundance, Master Spa, Cal Spas, Viking Spas, Great Lakes Spa, and Thermospas.
The only models I remember were the Aria by Hotspring, the Cameo by Sundance, and the Cal Spa Avalon.
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Hey Chris...I was not aware of this......thanks!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/20070401_consumer_digest.jpg)
March 1, 2007
Consumer Digest announces Cal Spas Avalon A-857L
as one of the “Best Buys in Portable Spas."
The Cal Spas Avalon A-857L series is tagged as the
“Best Buy in mid-range Portable Spas.”
http://www.consumersdigest.com/contents.html
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Good for them!! In my opinion its the best award money can buy.
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I just love that link to their website.....not a single link on the page.
I'm surprised that the "reputable" hot tub manufactures continue to pay to support that outfit.
What a load of horse sh*t.
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I just love that link to their website.....not a single link on the page.
.
Zep,
How did you get past that page? :P :P :P
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I forgot to add that Caldera had a Best Buy award as well.
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I forgot to add that Caldera had a Best Buy award as well.
Martinique.
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re: "I'm surprised that the "reputable" hot tub manufactures
continue to pay to support that outfit. What a load of horse sh*t"
"Good for them!! In my opinion its the best award money can buy"
Lets be clear....So you are saying Hot Spring is "buying" their rating?
And Hot Spring's rating is a "bunch of horse shit" ?
From The Hot Spring Website:
"Hot Spring is the only spa manufacturer to have one of its spas named
a Consumers Digest Best Buy[/u] all five times spas have been rated, most
recently the Vanguard® spa. No wonder Hot Spring spas is the world's
number one selling brand of portable hot tubs"
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/why-hotspring-spas.html
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re: I just love that link to their website...not a single link on the page.
re: Zep, How did you get past that page?
I would think you buy the publication or
subscribe just like you do with alot of other sites.
Earth to Richs100/HotTubDan....over? ;)
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Marquis Epic is a best buy as well
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How much does it cost to be eligible for an award from this outfit? Could you win without paying any fees?
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Not so sure these awards are all that they are cracked up to be. Maybe money can buy you awards. Here is what I dug up.
Consumers Digest is an American for-profit magazine publication which accepts advertisements and allows companies to use its reviews for marketing purposes. It should not be confused with the non-profit magazine Consumer Reports.
The magazine has come under criticism for various unusual business practices. For example, the publication isn't sold at newsstands, and to subscribe, the interested party must write to Consumers Digest asking for more information.
Alleged Impropriety
The magazine awards its Consumers Digest Best Buy seal to products its staff judges to be of the best quality for the most reasonable price. However, because Consumers Digest reportedly receives money from many of the corporations it reviews, uncertainty has arisen regarding how merit-based such an award can be.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM???????????????????????? :o :-? :-?
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Don't know the dollar figure, but no, you cannot claim to have a consumers digest best buy product with out paying their fees. I'm sure the company, consumers digest, researches which companies are mos advertizing agressive and targets them. After all, wouldn't it be a waste of energy to tell someone that rarely advertises "if you give us 20K, your company can have the priveledge of using our best buy award in your marketing propaganda." 20k is a throw out number, I don't know the real ammount, nor have I been aproached by CD to be notified that I have been tested and they would like to bestow this honor upon my person.
How much does it cost to be eligible for an award from this outfit? Could you win without paying any fees?
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From my understanding, you do NOT pay for the rating. This is an independent rating.
The manufacturers do choose the spa to have tested, not all spas are tested. Obviously, this would take way too long.
IF your spa is then picked as a "Best Buy," you can choose to pay Consumer's Digest for the "privilege" of using the logo in your marketing efforts.
Notice, spa manufacturers really don't advertise in the magazine, so nobody can claim CD is biased towards spa manufacturers that advertise.
IMO, this is a good rating. I'm not going to say that it is a totally 100% independent rating that a Bible could be sworn on, but for spa shoppers, this will give them a direction to look.
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bullshit.
Consumer Digest is just like that other Spa site that rates spas by how much you pay them.
Their cleverly disguised name (very similar to the much respected Consumer Reports), is meant to fool you into thinking they use the same standards as CR.
Don't be so damm gullible.
It's bad enough that the general public is.
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bullshit.
Consumer Digest is just like that other Spa site that rates spas by how much you pay them.
Their cleverly disguised name (very similar to the much respected Consumer Reports), is meant to fool you into thinking they use the same standards as CR.
Don't be so damm gullible.
It's bad enough that the general public is.
Recalling an old Mutual Of Omaha's Animal Kingdom episode:
"I'll just stay back here in the blind, while Rick goes out and wrestles that alligator"
Get'em Rick!
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The manufacturers do choose the spa to have tested, not all spas are tested. Obviously, this would take way too long.
AFAIK there is NO testing involved in a Consumers Digest evaluation. An independent researcher assembled printed materials from various manufacturers. The researcher then compared features and compiled rating sheets.
It is my understanding (please correct if wrong) that the magazine then correlates this information with customer reports and evaluations to get the final ratings. But there is no physical testing.
It wasn't until I saw the posts here that I even knew the article was published and the results available! Indigo/Chapters books report that the magazine is not yet on Canadian shelves and may not be available until next week. So I'll just have to wait to see how everyone did.
Thanks for the heads-up and congratulations to all the Best Buy rated spas!
Tom
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...IF your spa is then picked as a "Best Buy," you can choose to pay Consumer's Digest for the "privilege" of using the logo in your marketing efforts. Notice, spa manufacturers really don't advertise in the magazine, so nobody can claim CD is biased towards spa manufacturers that advertise....
No, it is only biased toward manufacturers that will pay for the "award" marketing rights. :P
I don't know if this is still true, but at one time I was told they wouldn't even "test" your product unless you agreed ahead of time to buy the marketing rights if you "won". To maximize Consumer Digest profits (and it is a for-profit enterprise), it is in their best interests to "award" every product that a manufacturer may be willing to buy rights for, and not waste time/money on products that they have no hope of getting compensated for. Perhaps they weed out the "sea-monkey spas" to maintain a hint of credibility, but to think that the awarded spas have undergone some rigorous, independent evaluation is naive at best, IMO.
I would guess that the evaluation is more along the lines of "Watkins always buys one or two marketing rights, Marquis and Sundance are usually good for one, and I think that if we list Arctic, Master, and Jacuzzi -- we'll get one or two more. They all sell a lot of spas, so how bad can they be? Let's throw in a couple of smaller brands to appear non-biased, and maybe we can sell them a lower-tier pricing. Lets not even bother with "X" this year, they never buy." For the companies that choose to participate, the question is "Is this a better use of our marketing budget than an extra magazine ad, or a TV spot?" :-/
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I posted the topic questioning the validity of spasearch not to long ago and watched as many people defended it simply because their spa was rated.
I would put a whole lot more faith in spasearch than consumers digest because I believe CD can't have that many experts on every product, in every industry they rate to give a fair rating. It is all about the marketing.
Here is the difference....I don't agree with some of spasearch's ratings this year but it's a better and more thorough rating than just about anything else out there.
Consumer digest has nothing to do with the spa industry nor do they have any knowledge of the spa industry. I doubt any of the experts on this site have ever had the opportunity to talk with someone at consumers digest yet many of us have been on industry trips with the spasearch people.
Spasearch on the other hand is very involved in the industry... they make it a point to talk with manufactures, dealers, customer and even hobbyists on their forum. I personally believe that they need to tighten up their standards a bit but I think time will show that they do care about the end user as much as they do the manufactures advertising with them.
Manufactures spend so much money, time and energy trying to compete with one another that the tend to miss the fact that we are losing more sales every day to other items like RV's, TV's, Boats, Jet Skis and so on then we are to each other.
Our products are health oriented yet just about every other health product out sells us. Our products are the single handedly the best answer to family togetherness, stress relief, weight loss, peace of mind, insomnia, arthritis, circulation and many other things yet people still by more big screens and theater rooms than spas set around them and forget their families. I would bet there are more Total Gyms in homes then spas!
Let's start getting together as an industry and supporting consumer education on the benefit of owning spas and stop supporting tools to bicker among ourselves.
Most of the people selling "Best Buy" as a benefit to customers don't have any idea how the rating came about nor do they care as long as they can use it as a sales tool.
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It's not BS just telling the other side of the story. There is always two sides to the storty right. Also, no one is knocking the quality of the spas that won the awards, people are just questioning the validity of the awards that are given. As I posted before:
because Consumers Digest reportedly receives money from many of the corporations it reviews, uncertainty has arisen regarding how merit-based such an award can be.
You guys take everyhthing so personal. GEEEEEEEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Great post Stuart. Well said!!!!!
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I posted the topic questioning the validity of spasearch not to long ago and watched as many people defended it simply because their spa was rated.
I would put a whole lot more faith in spasearch than consumers digest because I believe CD can't have that many experts on every product, in every industry they rate to give a fair rating. It is all about the marketing.
Here is the difference....I don't agree with some of spasearch's ratings this year but it's a better and more thorough rating than just about anything else out there.
Consumer digest has nothing to do with the spa industry nor do they have any knowledge of the spa industry. I doubt any of the experts on this site have ever had the opportunity to talk with someone at consumers digest yet many of us have been on industry trips with the spasearch people.
Spasearch on the other hand is very involved in the industry... they make it a point to talk with manufactures, dealers, customer and even hobbyists on their forum. I personally believe that they need to tighten up their standards a bit but I think time will show that they do care about the end user as much as they do the manufactures advertising with them.
Manufactures spend so much money, time and energy trying to compete with one another that the tend to miss the fact that we are losing more sales every day to other items like RV's, TV's, Boats, Jet Skis and so on then we are to each other.
Our products are health oriented yet just about every other health product out sells us. Our products are the single handedly the best answer to family togetherness, stress relief, weight loss, peace of mind, insomnia, arthritis, circulation and many other things yet people still by more big screens and theater rooms than spas set around them and forget their families. I would bet there are more Total Gyms in homes then spas!
Let's start getting together as an industry and supporting consumer education on the benefit of owning spas and stop supporting tools to bicker among ourselves.
Most of the people selling "Best Buy" as a benefit to customers don't have any idea how the rating came about nor do they care as long as they can use it as a sales tool.
Nice comment!! I would also bet there are way more Total Gyms stuffed under the bed collecting dust mites then there are spa's sitting in the backyard not being used.
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Our products are the single handedly the best answer to family togetherness, stress relief, weight loss, peace of mind, insomnia, arthritis, circulation and many other things yet people still by more big screens and theater rooms than spas set around them and forget their families.
Weight loss? How so?
While I agree that spa has many benifits, I think there are many things a familly can invest in - or simply do, to achive the same results.
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Here's a novel thought....Do you realize that we compete so hard because our market share is so little? What 60% of all homeowners thought of spas as essential as a dishwasher? Do you think we would still be as backbiting and competitive? Do you think Consumer's Digest would matter as much?
When I shopped for my Hummer I didn't buy a Consumers Digest I bought SUV and 4WD magazines. I bought car and driver and other magazines that were automotive related not some generic rating guide.
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...Our products are the single handedly the best answer to family togetherness, stress relief, weight loss, peace of mind, insomnia, arthritis, circulation and many other things...!
You forgot global warming and Middle East peace! ;) :)
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Our products are the single handedly the best answer to family togetherness, stress relief, weight loss, peace of mind, insomnia, arthritis, circulation and many other things yet people still by more big screens and theater rooms than spas set around them and forget their families.
Weight loss? How so?
While I agree that spa has many benifits, I think there are many things a familly can invest in - or simply do, to achive the same results.
Stress and sleep patterns play a major role in weight loss. If you get in your spa for at least 30 minuets every night before you go to bed you will decrease stress, increase core body temp before you go to sleep and sleep deeper.
All of these things will help in weight loss just like a Sauna will. Increased circulation will help also....
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So drew, now you’ve got me intrigued…What else can you have at your home that gives you that much direct one on one family time without competition or distraction? Not TV, not a video game….Just about everything else involves phones, computers, TV’s or some other distraction.
IMO there is nothing that gets you face to face and vulnerable in conversation as a spa. There’s something about being half naked (or naked) up to your neck in hot water getting a massage that brings an honesty and openness to a moment.
In 30 minuets in my spa I can be the prince and slay the mean sea witch for my daughter while becoming a hero to my wife…That to me is the essence of owning a spa.
Likewise, there is no place I can go to get my head together like I can at 3am under the stars without a soul around setting in my spa.
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Drew said, "While I agree that spa has many benefits, I think there are many things a family can invest in - or simply do, to archive the same results."
OMG - Drew, I don't remember the last time we disagreed - but there is nothing a family can invest in that is better than a spa.
[size=24]Nothing[/size][/i]
;)
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Drew said, "While I agree that spa has many benefits, I think there are many things a family can invest in - or simply do, to archive the same results."
OMG - Drew, I don't remember the last time we disagreed - but there is nothing a family can invest in that is better than a spa.
[size=24]Nothing[/size][/i]
;)
I don't know what came over me. Bit of course Chas, you are right. Without a doubt. ;) And not just any hot tub either,but a WATKINS hot tub.
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i am telling you....I learn something everyday in here!
#1. a hot tub helps you lose weight?.....was not aware of that.
#2. a hot tub "bonds people"...because they are togther in a confined
place relaxing and can't really jump on a computer, watch TV,
they must communicate.....kind of like the conversations at the
dinner tables in the 50's & 60's when some of us grew up.
yep.....never had thought of that, but it is true.....
now the weight loss thing I am not sure of, but sounds logical
as one piece of a puzzle.
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Our products are the single handedly the best answer to family togetherness, stress relief, weight loss, peace of mind, insomnia, arthritis, circulation and many other things yet people still by more big screens and theater rooms than spas set around them and forget their families.
Weight loss? How so?
While I agree that spa has many benifits, I think there are many things a familly can invest in - or simply do, to achive the same results.
Dance lessons will do all of that and more for you. ;)
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Consumer Digest test lots of products but they have never tested spas. You pay for the right, of course they disguise it.
The simple fact that Master is on the list is a dead give away, remove the cabinet of a Master and you will see what I mean. There are two or three things they do that are not U.L. or E.T.L. approved, to me that is a dead give away that CD does even look at these spas.
Also Hot Springs is about to get busted for having the option of setting their spas above 104, another ETL no no. (I have nothing against HS, they are good spas, just pointing out a fact [I also think this is a stupid rule]).
So CD are calling spas best buys that do not meet the safety standards set by U.L. and E.T.L., seems odd does it not.
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re: Also Hot Springs is about to get busted for having the option of setting their spas above 104, another ETL no no...... do not meet the safety standards set by U.L. and E.T.L.
If this is in fact true...I am curious why Hot Spring would do this?
In other words....what is the upside to allowing a spa to be set above 104?
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re: Also Hot Springs is about to get busted for having the option of setting their spas above 104, another ETL no no...... do not meet the safety standards set by U.L. and E.T.L.
If this is in fact true...I am curious why Hot Spring would do this?
In other words....what is the upside to allowing a spa to be set above 104?
When HS was U.L. listed they got busted once for this, I think the simple reason for doing it is some uneducated consumers want the water above 104F.
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So drew, now you’ve got me intrigued…What else can you have at your home that gives you that much direct one on one family time without competition or distraction? Not TV, not a video game….Just about everything else involves phones, computers, TV’s or some other distraction.
Stuart, I belive in all the good stuff you said about hot tubs (Well, not the weight loss), and enjoy those benifits all the time. I'm a beliver, and a huge advocate of hot tubs. I just was taken aback that you were speaking in absolutes, single handedly the best answer..." ::)
But okay, I'll play. :)
A set of bikes for the familly. Or snow shoes, a familly memebrship in a gym, or taking the money and investinging it in a rec room for the familly, some camping suplies, musical instruments, gardening, a bar b que grill and a picnic table, a boat, a pool....not all computers, TV's and electronis are bad either, they can be used for quality time. It just takes a bit of effort to choose the right activites.
My point is there are many things a family that wants to do wholesome, healthy things toghethor can do, that there are many things they can do. A hot tub isn't "The single handedly the best answer"...come on, over the top statements like that tend to make folks think you either drank too much kool aid, or are trying to sell them something....oh yea...you are . ;)
:) :)
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Dance lessons will do all of that and more for you. ;)
Followed by a hot tub and the results are expodential. ;)
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I think the simple reason for doing it is some uneducated consumers want the water above 104F.
Off on a tangent again...........Uneducated? Oh please! Are you telling me that the entire population of Japan is uneducated? I would tend to think it's completely the other way around. 104 is the determined temp due to uneducated people, and those that are not willing to take responsibility for their own actions.
Besides, the actual UL standard is 104, +/- 4 degrees (unless they've recently changed it, which is possible as there was talk).
It still boggles me that no one has sued an auto manufacturer yet. Why can my car go 150 MPH (190 if I do a simple chip modification)? If I get into an accident at high speed, shouldn't the manufacturer bare some responsibility for making a product that's capable of exceeding the speed limit by over 80 MPH?
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OK, Gary, I'll bite.
You throw out the claims that Hot Spring is about to be busted by ETL and they got into trouble with UL over the fact that you can set the temp higher than 104.
What is your documentation?
My understanding is Watkins and many other major spa manufacturers switched to ETL because of cost, ETL does more for less. Like the UL Mark, the ETL Listed Mark shows that products have been independently tested to the specifications of applicable product standards, i.e. ANSI Standards, by an OSHA-recognized NRTL.
Finally, even the 104 setting as a maximum setting is for safety is debatable. See Pool and Spa News:
"The industry's position is that UL is making this change right now without any basis for it," said James Hedgecock, manager of business development at Dimension One Spas Inc. in Vista, Calif.
Hedgecock also chairs the subcommittee on advocacy, which was convened by the Association of Pool & Spa Professionals' Hot Tub Council to probe the UL standard. It is the subcommittee's contention that the 104 F recommendation is unwarranted because of scant evidence to support the connection between high temperatures, alcohol usage and death.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NTB/is_19_44/ai_n15680634
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Consumer Digest test lots of products but they have never tested spas. You pay for the right, of course they disguise it.
The simple fact that Master is on the list is a dead give away, remove the cabinet of a Master and you will see what I mean. There are two or three things they do that are not U.L. or E.T.L. approved, to me that is a dead give away that CD does even look at these spas.
Also Hot Springs is about to get busted for having the option of setting their spas above 104, another ETL no no. (I have nothing against HS, they are good spas, just pointing out a fact [I also think this is a stupid rule]).
So CD are calling spas best buys that do not meet the safety standards set by U.L. and E.T.L., seems odd does it not.
As a consumer, I agree that CD and other trade joiurnals and awards are all suspect .
Where did you hear the rumor about Hotsprings?
Can anyone reference Edison's rule on maximum allowable water temp reg?
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re: When HS was U.L. listed they got busted once for this, I think the simple reason for doing it is some uneducated consumers want the water above 104F
But Gary....seriously do you really think a company as large and
successful as Hot Spring is going to risk the liability and U.L. listing
for a few "uneducated consumers who want water above 104"?
I mean how many consumers are going to let that factor weigh in
their decision to buy a spa or not?
There has got to be another reason?
ps: How high of temp will HS tubs go?
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Let me make this clear, I think the 104 rule is ridiculous, you should be able to sit in whatever water temp you want.
From what I have read and be told by many doctors 102 is the best temperature to get the best benefits from hydrotherapy.
What feels good does not mean it is good for you. With water temperature 104,105... probably will not harm most folks but they are not getting the most from their soak either. Yes there are exceptions.
Talk to your doctor and see what he says.
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I dont know about Hot springs, but you use to be able to go to 108* with Jacuzzi and Sundance and now you cant starting mid 06 or so. You can with 05s and lower if you have the e-prom for certain models some you just changed the jumper.
Last week I had a young couple in that had a old Cal-spa and they wanted to buy a new spa but wanted it to go up to 112* :o I told them they wouldnt find anything that would go that high and that it probably was not safe to sit in that temp of water.
Well he got all pissey with me and stated he and his wife sat in there spa at that temp nightly for at least a 1/2 hour or so. Needless to say they didn't buy a spa from me.
Probably a good thing.
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Last week I had a young couple in that had a old Cal-spa and they wanted to buy a new spa but wanted it to go up to 112* :o I told them they wouldnt find anything that would go that high and that it probably was not safe to sit in that temp of water.
Well he got all pissey with me and stated he and his wife sat in there spa at that temp nightly for at least a 1/2 hour or so. Needless to say they didn't buy a spa from me.
Probably a good thing.
112? Did they tell you what brand of spa it was?
I wonder if the actual water temp was that high. Just because the read out says 112, dosen't actually mean it's 112. ;)
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This whole water temperature thing has me confused a bit. Not that it's all that hard to confuse me. If I wanted to, I could fill up our whirlpool bathtub with water straight out of our water heater, which I keep at 120. But it could be higher- I used to keep the water at 140. There is a scald risk, but no controls in place to prevent the homeowner from doing it.
I gotta believe lots of people draw baths at temperature greater than 104.
Personally I find 104 a speck too high. Maybe I should be a daredevil and adjust the jumper on the Optima and see what happens when I crank er up.
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I dont know about Hot springs, but you use to be able to go to 108* with Jacuzzi and Sundance and now you cant starting mid 06 or so. You can with 05s and lower if you have the e-prom for certain models some you just changed the jumper.
Last week I had a young couple in that had a old Cal-spa and they wanted to buy a new spa but wanted it to go up to 112* :o I told them they wouldnt find anything that would go that high and that it probably was not safe to sit in that temp of water.
Well he got all pissey with me and stated he and his wife sat in there spa at that temp nightly for at least a 1/2 hour or so. Needless to say they didn't buy a spa from me.
Probably a good thing.
I went out to a spa once and the husband and wife were there asking questions and I noted that their spa temp was 107º. So I asked if they liked it that hot to make sure that was where they really were trying to keep the temp. The husband was all macho in his response "yeah, anything lower is a waste of time, blah, blah, blah". A few minutes later he left for some reason and I asked the qife some question unrelated and in answering she said "... but when we go in we are really only in for a couple minutes because at that temp you can't stay in for long". I just got a chuckle because Mr. Rambo made it seem like he was impervious to the heat.
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112? Did they tell you what brand of spa it was?
I wonder if the actual water temp was that high. Just because the read out says 112, dosen't actually mean it's 112. ;)
Old Cal spa, no digital display he did have one of those floating pool thermometers though. ::)
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The simple fact that Master is on the list is a dead give away, remove the cabinet of a Master and you will see what I mean. There are two or three things they do that are not U.L. or E.T.L. approved, to me that is a dead give away that CD does even look at these spas.
Gary,
Making accusations like these is no more than spewing inuendo without facts. Get facts...get specific...before you open that big piehole of yours otherwise your comments are just hot air. And in this case, since you are claiming they do things that are obviously not UL or ETL approved, you better be able to quote UL and ETL standards along with the MS violations otherwise, still inuendo. Your mouth has written a pretty big check...
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Here you go, Gary...
MasterSpas ETL listing (http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/6a421efeead6f216852568d4005862af/c8b0a2816e06494c8525716f00667322?OpenDocument&ExpandSection=2#_Section2)
Like Ricky Ricardo says, "Gary, you got some 'splainin' to do"...
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Is that approval just to Canadian standards?
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re: My understanding is Watkins and many other major spa
manufacturers switched to ETL because of cost.....
I have never even noticed (learn something every day)
but I see this on the CalSpa website:
(http://www.calspas.com/hot_tubs/images/features/equipment/ul.gif)
U.L. Listed
All Cal Spas hot tubs are approved (in their entirety, and in their component parts)
by the Underwriters Laboratory, a non-profit international organization recognized
for its strict safety standards.
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Is that approval just to Canadian standards?
Yeah, Doc, I think you are correct. Here is the US listing. (http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/6a421efeead6f216852568d4005862af/692214ec72dd200b85257038004903a1?OpenDocument&ExpandSection=2#_Section2) Sorry for the confusion.
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Here you go, Gary...
MasterSpas ETL listing (http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/6a421efeead6f216852568d4005862af/c8b0a2816e06494c8525716f00667322?OpenDocument&ExpandSection=2#_Section2)
Like Ricky Ricardo says, "Gary, you got some 'splainin' to do"...
Just because you are listed does not mean you continue to follow the rules.
Here is a Master Spa example for you: There spas that are not foamed filled have pump(s) that are just sitting under the skirt and the only thing between the pump and cabinet is their thermo-wrap. If you do it this way you must have material that is HB rated, theirs is not.
And for the record I am not picking on Master even though I think they are a POS spa, but it is what it is.
Now that you got on a Master tangent, how about their framing that does not even touch the shell, so what happens the shells settles on the frame over time. That is why when you look at the lip of a Master spa the lips are warping. Do not take my word for it remove one of the sides and and you to can feel the gap from the frame to the shell.
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Consumer Digest test lots of products but they have never tested spas. You pay for the right, of course they disguise it.
AFAIK the the first part of this is correct - CD did not test the spas.
AFAIK the second part is NOT correct, at least as far as Arctic is concerned. I was responsible for providing information on our brand for the CD article. At no time did CD approach me or contact me to solicit funds or offer to sell advertising. In fact, they have not contacted me at all except in response to my recent query about buying copies of the March issue.
All materials (print and electronic) were supplied to a third party researcher. The researcher was highly experienced in the hot tub industry and I am convinced of her bona fides. The researcher went to the Vegas show to physically examine as many of the spas as she could and to meet with the manufacturers' reps.
It appears that much of what is being said is hearsay and assumptions with little basis in fact. While there may be doubts about the CD rating, it doesn't seem to be quite as bad as it's being made out here.
Anyone with evidence to the contrary (not "somebody told me", or "I heard", but direct evidence) is welcome to share it.
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Drew said, "While I agree that spa has many benefits, I think there are many things a family can invest in - or simply do, to archive the same results."
OMG - Drew, I don't remember the last time we disagreed - but there is nothing a family can invest in that is better than a spa.
[size=24]Nothing[/size][/i]
;)
HOLY COW CHAS,
Are you now selling life insurance/use cars/meat from a truck on the side? Because that comment sure sounds a lot like it. Knowing you I sure it was with your tongue firmly planted in your cheek!
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...It appears that much of what is being said is hearsay and assumptions with little basis in fact... Anyone with evidence to the contrary (not "somebody told me", or "I heard", but direct evidence) is welcome to share it.
If we apply that standard, the entire archives of this board could probably be reduced to one page. ;)
It seems to me that as long as statements are clearly identified as "somebody told me" or the writer's opinion, and people who make bold statements are willing to explain/back them up, unsubstantiated opinions are what makes internet forums go 'round. IMO ;)
Tom, I respect your contributions here, but I've gotta wonder -- would you be so quick to defend these awards if Arctic hadn't been honored. :-? :)
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Just because you are listed does not mean you continue to follow the rules.
So, you are saying that the whole UL/ETL rating is a scam since it is a one time rating that any manufacturer can ignore after getting the rating? Methinks you are grasping a straws...all inuendo, no substance.
Here is a Master Spa example for you: There spas that are not foamed filled have pump(s) that are just sitting under the skirt and the only thing be the pump and cabinet is their thermo-wrap. If you do it this way you must have material that is HB rated, theirs is not.
Speak English, please. What is HB rated? Please quote your source in ETL rating documentation. Also, I guess every TP spa out there falls into this category since all mount their pumps in a similar way...and all TP spa manufacturers are getting their UL/ETL ratings then thumbing their noses at them. Plain ol' inuendo not to mention simple ignorance on your part.
And for the record I am not picking on Master even though I think they are a POS spa, but it is what it is.
You are certainly welcomed to your own opinion so long as you couch it within statements like above. Too bad you didn't do this in your first post on this thread.
Now that you got on a Master tangent, how about their framing that does not even touch the shell, so what happens the shells settles on the frame over time. That is why when you look at the lip of a Master spa the lips are warping. Do not take my word for it remove one of the sides and and you to can feel the gap from the frame to the shell.
I have no idea about which you speak. I'll be more than happy to examine my LSX which, after continual use for 2.75 years, shows absolutely no signs of that you purport. BTW, do you think that any spa's frame should support 100% of the weight of the spa? Isn't most of the weight of a spa and it's water supported from the bottom of the spa shell where it rests supported by decking/concrete pad with possibly framing and/or enclosed bottom material in between? Are you saying that the frame is responsible for supporting 100% of the weight irrespective of the bottom support--like the shell is "hanging" on the frame? Either way, I don't see any sign of it in my spa.
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Just because you are listed does not mean you continue to follow the rules.
Well, I'm sorry to tell you this is not completely correct. In order to continue to have a UL listing you also have to subscribe to an annual contract. UL will then make approx. 4 surprise inspections per year. Cancel the annual contract, or fail a surprise inspection, and you lose the rating.
FYI, when someone makes such a bold statement, and is wrong, I personally stop reading at that point. One you've lost your credibility, everything else becomes suspect.
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Windsurfdog, I could answer all your rebuttals but it would not matter to you.
All I can say is I have been in the hot tub business almost 20-years and have never lied to anyone one this board. Now sometimes I like goading people here but that is all in fun.
You have a Master and if you are happy with that is great, do not get so defensive.
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re: "In order to continue to have a UL listing you also have to subscribe to an annual contract. UL will then make approx. 4 surprise inspections per year"
Dr. Spa does ETL work exactly the same way?
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re: "In order to continue to have a UL listing you also have to subscribe to an annual contract. UL will then make approx. 4 surprise inspections per year"
Dr. Spa does ETL work exactly the same way?
I don't know. I've have some conversations with UL to possibly have some products listed, so there I have some first hand knowledge.
HOWEVER, since ETL has become as widely accepted as UL I would tend to believe that they work the same. Getting a product initially listed is only the beginning. You still have to maintain the listing.
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re: "In order to continue to have a UL listing you also have to subscribe to an annual contract. UL will then make approx. 4 surprise inspections per year"
Dr. Spa does ETL work exactly the same way?
I worked for Baker Hydro back in the 80's and they always called and told us when they were coming and when they did show up it would be a far cry to call it an inspection. Usually involved checking paperwork. In threes years they were there twice.
I doubt anyone violates their listing intentionally but the way things are written cna be up for interpretation.
Not saying Baker was out of line with anything just relaying the U.L. inspection process for us back then.
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Windsurfdog, I could answer all your rebuttals but it would not matter to you.
All I can say is I have been in the hot tub business almost 20-years and have never lied to anyone one this board. Now sometimes I like goading people here but that is all in fun.
You have a Master and if you are happy with that is great, do not get so defensive.
Gary,
I'm happy to report to you that what you say indeed matters to me. To say that you "think" MS is POS is fine...opinions and the voicing of them is encouraged. To make unfounded accusations, disguising fiction as fact, is inexcusable, especially from a seasoned spa professional like yourself. Defensive? No way as long as substantiated facts can be discussed. And when I smell bull$hit I call bull$hit, plain and simple. Fair enough?
And one other comment...
I've been told (almost to the point of patronization) by many on this board how great it is that I'm a happy MS owner. I DO believe that all, like yourself, Gary, that mention this are truly sincere and I DO appreciate the sincerity. But the inference I get is that I am but one of the very few...the very lucky...to be so pleased with my POS MS spa. I just don't believe that I'm in such a minority...though, here at this board, I'm one of the EXTREMELY few that bother to call bull$hit where MS is unfactually maligned. All I ask is for substantiated facts to be presented and leave the snide (i.e. "The simple fact that Master is on the list is a dead give away") and the unsubstantiated (i.e. "There are two or three things they do that are not U.L. or E.T.L. approved") out of it. Fair enough?
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Gary,
I'm happy to report to you that what you say indeed matters to me. To say that you "think" MS is POS is fine...opinions and the voicing of them is encouraged. To make unfounded accusations, disguising fiction as fact, is inexcusable, especially from a seasoned spa professional like yourself. Defensive? No way as long as substantiated facts can be discussed. And when I smell bull$hit I call bull$hit, plain and simple. Fair enough?
And one other comment...
I've been told (almost to the point of patronization) by many on this board how great it is that I'm a happy MS owner. I DO believe that all, like yourself, Gary, that mention this are truly sincere and I DO appreciate the sincerity. But the inference I get is that I am but one of the very few...the very lucky...to be so pleased with my POS MS spa. I just don't believe that I'm in such a minority...though, here at this board, I'm one of the EXTREMELY few that bother to call bull$hit where MS is unfactually maligned. All I ask is for substantiated facts to be presented and leave the snide (i.e. "The simple fact that Master is on the list is a dead give away") and the unsubstantiated (i.e. "There are two or three things they do that are not U.L. or E.T.L. approved") out of it. Fair enough?
Fair enough, if I was a better net surfer I might be able to find the information. I did call Master to get the information but all they would do is give me their listing number.
Soak On! [smiley=bath.gif] [smiley=beer.gif]
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Fair enough, if I was a better net surfer I might be able to find the information. I did call Master to get the information but all they would do is give me their listing number.
Soak On! [smiley=bath.gif] [smiley=beer.gif]
Thanks, Gary...I'll drink to you during my next martini soak! And please forgive if my toesteps were too harsh. 8-)
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Tom, I respect your contributions here, but I've gotta wonder -- would you be so quick to defend these awards if Arctic hadn't been honored. :-? :)
Thank you. Didn't think we had been honored with a CD "Best Buy" rating, since we haven't paid anything to the magazine. 8-) Haven't seen the magazine yet. Reese, please PM me with details of our "honor". Many thanks.
Actually, I don't feel that I am defending the award - just trying to ensure that my opinions are as soundly based on facts as I can, and encouraging others to do the same.
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Thank you. Didn't think we had been honored with a CD "Best Buy" rating...
My condolences. I thought with the august list that had been disclosed thus far, your stated respect for the process, and all the good things I have heard about Arctic -- it would surely make the grade. Guess you are right about hearsay.;) Keep trying, I'm sure if Arctic sets its mind to it, someday it will also be a "Best Buy", like Thermospa and the others! ::)
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My condolences. Keep trying, I'm sure if Arctic sets its mind to it, someday it will also be a "Best Buy" ::)
I'm sure it will, too. We're making progress: the last time CD did hot tubs, we weren't even mentioned; this time, they invited us to participate. We'll see what they had to say, and go from there.
Meanwhile, I guess we'll just have to be content with being Spasearch Certified. 8-)
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I'm sure it will, too. We're making progress: the last time CD did hot tubs, we weren't even mentioned; this time, they invited us to participate. We'll see what they had to say, and go from there.
I finally got a copy of the April edition of Consumers Digest and guess what? After all the work and expense of supplying them with that they asked for, we aren't even mentioned!
We could have saved the time and money and received the exact same result. Well, we'll try buying a couple of full page ads and see what happens. And we'll be better prepared for the next round (in 3 to 7 years).
Meanwhile, I guess we'll just have to be content with being Spasearch Certified. 8-)
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Like pretty much every spa shopper who ever lived, I've often wondered why Consumer Reports hasn't rated hot tubs. I did a search on their site and found this:
"Products not yet tested -- As reader interest in these products increases, we hope to be able to offer information.
* Boats/outboard motors
* Fireplaces/fireplace inserts
* Golf equipment
* Hot tubs
* Insect Repellants (electronic or propane)
* Jacuzzis
* Motorcycles
* Radar detectors
* Recreational vehicles
* Spas
* Swimming pools and equipment
* Travel trailers/campers
* Vans (conversion or full-size vans)"
I think that's really interesting. They'd review hot tubs if readers were interested in them. I think I'll go post that information. Everywhere.
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Hmmmm.
Hot tubs, Jacuzzis, and Spas have not been rated yet.
I'm not sure I want them to rate them if they think these 3 items are all different.
;)
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Hmmmm.
Hot tubs, Jacuzzis, and Spas have not been rated yet.
I'm not sure I want them to rate them if they think these 3 items are all different.
;)
Technically they are.
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quote author=Gary link=1173735192/60#70 date=1181317304]
Technically they are.[/quote]
A hot tub is just what it sounds like...A tub of hot water that you can soak in that may or may not involve jets.
A spa involves hydrotherapy and massage.
A Jacuzzi is just a name brand....Much like Kleenex is just a tissue.