Thinking Out Loud

[East_TX_Spa]

In another post, hymbaw pointed out that a certain brand of spa charges more for full foam than thermal pane.  It got me to thinking about an argument that some folks on here (and one former participant in particular) always put forth about TP spas costing more to produce.

Why then, on some manufacturer's that offer both, is the full foam package considered to be an upgrade and more money is charged for this service?  What am I missing?  I'm still trying to learn more about this business.

Terminator

[drewstar]

I know form the recent posts that Emerald offers the upgrade.   What other Manufacturers offer it?

[East_TX_Spa]

I know form the recent posts that Emerald offers the upgrade.   What other Manufacturers offer it?

I'm thinking I've read that Master Spas offer it, too.  Maybe Dynasty?

Terminator

[Bill_Stevenson]

Term,

This is speculation on my part, but it is likely that whatever insulation method is the standard for a given manufacturer is the least cost option.  On the other hand, the method that they are not set up for and that they do not do routinely would cost more for them to do.  With something as fundamental to the construction of a spa as insulation, I am surprised that any company would be willing to do it both ways.  The materials, equipment, training for the workers who perform the installation must be very different for the two different approaches.  My guess is that only relatively low volume producers could accomodate such a scheme.

In the FWIW department, having read all the various pros and cons, it is my opinion that either insulation construction is undoubtedly OK if it is well executed.  The differences in performance are probably similar to those one could expect due to color choice.

I can tell you that I have been worried sick about the insulation in my Envoy - NOT!   :-)

Regards,

Bill

[drewstar]

Here's what Master Spa had to say:
http://www.masterspas.com/arctic.asp
The POLAR Master Insulation System.  At Master Spas, we believe you deserve to know the truth about your spa's energy use. Many companies would lead you to believe their spas are the most energy efficient because they fill them with foam insulation. Well, it's not that simple. The truth is, they rely on the foam insulation for structural support. We have a better way. It's called the Polar Master insulation system, and its been confirmed by an independent testing lab that no fully-foamed spa is more energy efficient than a Master Spa with the Polar Master system. However, at Master Spas, the choice is yours - full foam insulation is available on most models at no additional cost.


Dynasty offers an Artic Foam insulation (not sure what that is exactly), and on thier Advantage series offers  Full Foam insualtion.

huh.

[East_TX_Spa]

Mr. Stevenson, that is a good point and one that I did consider.

I'm wondering why it would be considered an "upgrade" for a manufacturer to offer this option above and beyond their "standard" product.  If they are touting the advantages of TP, it seems to me that is where their loyalties would lie and they would stick by their guns.  It smells of duality in telling the customer what they "think" they want to hear, in my opinion.

Terminator

[Bill_Stevenson]

Term,

There are two kinds of deals when it comes to why people do the things they do.  Rational responses and emotional responses.  My rational side tells me there is no appreciable difference in terms of measurable performance between insulation types.  Emotionally, some people sit on either side of the debate and that is true for manufacturing people, dealer people, and consumer people.  There is no accounting for the emotional response with rational analysis.  

I know people get all worked up on this topic, but to me the whole insulation argument is just plain silly.   For example, what difference does it make to the insulative performance of full foam, if the full foam also provides structural support for the shell?  The answer is, there is no difference attributable to this aspect of full foam.  Another example, what difference does it make if thermal pane is easier to remove if repairs are necessary, if the manufacturer builds spas that hold up well and don't require repairs for the life of their spa?  Here, too, the answer is there is no difference.  

These are rational arguments, just as your logic and quest for understanding is rational.  You and I are not likely going to get inside the heads of the emoters.

BTW, please call me Bill.  The Mister word will remind me of my Navy days and cause nightmares.  That is an emotional response.  ;-)

Regards,

Bill

[Mendocino101]

This has always been my point regardless of those who offer both, when you go with full foam most times it is a up charge for it....I am strongly of the believe that those who offer both do so only to appease someone and basically tell them what they want to hear rather than doing what they feel is the best.....I can respect either one I just have hard time with those who offer both as I can not believe they have a genuine commitment to either one.

[Veeper]

Thermal Pane Insulation is better than full foam.  As I was told....heat does not go sideways, it goes up.  So what good is all the insulation on the side??  It's like telling you to take out all the insulation in your attic and shove it into your walls and you will see the lowest heating bills you've ever had.  Don't think so.  That is why we add more insulation into our attics, not our walls.  Adding additional foam makes sense that it'd cost more.

[NE-Phil]

...That is why we add more insulation into our attics, not our walls.  Adding additional foam makes sense that it'd cost more.

Veeper,
I have insulation in the walls and the attic of my home, don't you? Heat does go up but it also goes sideways.  If heat does not escape from the sides as well as from above why do we insulate the walls of our homes? Why would a spa or anything that generates heat be any different?

Phil

[East_TX_Spa]

 It's like telling you to take out all the insulation in your attic and shove it into your walls and you will see the lowest heating bills you've ever had.  Don't think so.  That is why we add more insulation into our attics, not our walls.

Welcome to the board.

I'm afraid that this is a bad analogy as no one is advocating transferring the foam from the attic to the walls, only in having foam in the attic AND the walls.

Terminator

[Veeper]

Thanks Terminator for the welcome....

I have insulation in my walls as well - R-13.  Unlike my attic that has R-30.  Some heat will tranfer sideways, but the majority will go up, correct?

[East_TX_Spa]

You're welcome for the welcome.

As far as heat transfer, I ain't no rocket scientist, but I assume you're correct in that the majority of the heat will, indeed, tansfer upwards.  Some of the rocket scientists we do have on this forum will hopefully validate this, but you sure don't want to get me talking out of my backside on this.

Terminator

[drewstar]

Thanks Terminator for the welcome....

I have insulation in my walls as well - R-13.  Unlike my attic that has R-30.  Some heat will tranfer sideways, but the majority will go up, correct?

Assuming you don't have a window or door open.  

but yes, Hot air rises.

"Heat" or temperature transfer and the effects of  insullation (what we are really talking about) is a bit different.  

[Chas]

I have seldom disagreed with Bill Stevenson - and once again I agree.

As to the question posed by Veeper - no, heat does not go up.

Heat goes any direction from warm to cool (or hot to cold). There are different ways in which heat moves, convection, conduction and radiation.

Hot air does rise above cool air, and hence the common misconception. Hot air rises. This is part of the reason that homes (which do not compare to a tub of water) generally have more insulation in the attic. But there is another very important reason - it costs pennies per square foot to add that extra insulation in the attic. To do the same in the walls would mean going to larger sized lumber in the actual construction of the walls. That costs a bunch.