California Energy Consumption (For Everyone)

[Gary]

I found this on the net and thought this is good information, that was until I did some math and found out just about every one of the companies is blowing more smoke than a forest fire. I found out that a company can submit their numbers and California does not check or ask for back-up documentation.  So how so you feel about a company that is bald face lying about these numbers. We have some smart folks on here and I am sure they will do the math and see what a joke it is.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/appliance/excel_based_files/pool_products/


Some of these did not just tell little white lies, they are trying to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

[windsurfdog]

http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/appliance/excel_based_files/pool_products/

Boy, that "Spa Insulation" column packs a lot of information... ...and I'm sure those spa R values are right on the money!

Thanks for the laugh, Gar.

BTW, if you didn't see it in a previous post, that martini I drank to you went down real well...

[stuart]

This whole program is, sadly, a big joke....They can't and won't police it, they have no controls over the testing and all anyone has to do is sign an affidavit saying the information is correct to the best of their knowledge.

They wanted to make it a law however this was dropped when they were challenged to the validity of the information.

Here is an excerpt from one of my emails to Jim with the CEC...He called me very flustered after this saying he sees the discrepancies and doesn’t' know how to police it so they may have to put it on hold...that was 6 months ago...
" Jim,
How is the "R" value standard set? It seems that one of the manufactures that you have rated is giving a per inch value and the other is giving a "total" value? Could this be? The discrepancy is immense and would be used as a crippling sales tool against others in the industry.

How could two covers made by the same vendor with the same materials have a difference of R3? Even more disturbing, how could two spas with similar insulation properties, thickness and density have a discrepancy of R11?

Considering the capacity, type insulation, voltage and volume are the same wouldn't the wattage be a bit closer or even less draw on the spa with a better "R" value? The pumps, heaters and equipment pull very close to the same amperage across the board...

Under the test requirements that I have heard the spa is to be tested at volume...Does this mean that a 400 gallon spa is checked to see that it is filled to 400 gallons or is there fudge room for 20 to 50 gallons? By the standards you've set up this could make a lot of difference on the ratios."

The sad part is that if this program could be controlled it would be a huge benefit to consumers and would weed out some of the false reports. The way it stands however, it’s just one more way for the spa industry to manipulate the customer and for those that have no problem lying to sell their product.

[Gary]

I am amazed more folks did not have any feedback on this, if I owed one of those spas I would be on the phone with them and asking for some utility bill credit.

I called Clearwater and Master and gave them parameters of .08 per KW hour, usage and ambient temp and the both told me about the same thing, roughly $25 a month. Then I told them that does not jive with what they have posted on the CEC website and it is not even close, Clearwater hung up on me and Master starting stuttering worse then Mel Tellis.

Why would anybody buy from such unethically companies, they sound like another guy in Colorado.

If I sound harsh I mean to, I think if us appalling that companies will sink to these standards.

I have written a letter to each one of them asking for their data, if any respond I will let you know.

[East_TX_Spa]

Jerry Reed has always spoken with a clear, unwavering voice when I've had the occasion to hear him speak.  Perhaps you meant M-m-m-mel  T-t-till-is?

T-t-terminat-t-t-orr

[Gary]

I knew it was one of the guys that works with Burt.

[Tom]

I found this on the net and thought this is good information, that was until I did some math and found out just about every one of the companies is blowing more smoke than a forest fire.

Interesting data, since a couple of years ago it seems that many US companies were objecting to the CEC standards as being too stringent.  Yet somehow all the models are well under the standard, even one which in a test by the Alberta Research Council used twice as much power as the CEC standard (they may have improved the model since then).

But surely a few random spot checks would determine accuracy?

[Gomboman]

http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/appliance/excel_based_files/pool_products

[windsurfdog]

Why would anybody buy from such unethically companies, they sound like another guy in Colorado.

Could it be because those of us who buy them are purchasing a product that WE FEEL offers superior therapy and value for our dollar?  I'm constantly amazed how some around here really get their panties in a wad over something as inherently persuasive and purposely deceptive as marketing is as a whole.  Gary, please continue to find and point these things out but do us all a favor and leave us customers out of it.  And take a chill pill...

[Wisoki]

I don't understand the point of the document. I't is full of meaningless numbers. Spa insulation true or false? Very scientific! The average consumer would never run across this information, which renders it useless. A bunch of gobledegook is what that is.

I found this on the net and thought this is good information, that was until I did some math and found out just about every one of the companies is blowing more smoke than a forest fire. I found out that a company can submit their numbers and California does not check or ask for back-up documentation.  So how so you feel about a company that is bald face lying about these numbers. We have some smart folks on here and I am sure they will do the math and see what a joke it is.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/appliance/excel_based_files/pool_products/


Some of these did not just tell little white lies, they are trying to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

[Vanguard]

Could it be because those of us who buy them are purchasing a product that WE FEEL offers superior therapy and value for our dollar?  I'm constantly amazed how some around here really get their panties in a wad over something as inherently persuasive and purposely deceptive as marketing is as a whole.  Gary, please continue to find and point these things out but do us all a favor and leave us customers out of it.  And take a chill pill...

So, are you saying that as a customer, if you knew a company lied and was unethical, you'd still buy from them?

Marketing surely hypes.  However, ethical companies like Sundance, Watkins, Marquis, et al, are not going to out and out lie.  Some companies in this industry make it a habit to do so.

I'd like to think consumers would like to know which companies are ethical and which are not.

[windsurfdog]

So, are you saying that as a customer, if you knew a company lied and was unethical, you'd still buy from them?

Marketing surely hypes.  However, ethical companies like Sundance, Watkins, Marquis, et al, are not going to out and out lie.  Some companies in this industry make it a habit to do so.

I'd like to think consumers would like to know which companies are ethical and which are not.

Are you serious?  Too much HS Koolaid, obviously.

So prove that HS tubs have an R-rating of 25.

Your allegations regarding "Some companies in this industry make it a habit to do so." is just as groundless as anything I've read from any of the alleged "out and out" lying companies.

Let's discuss facts on this board and leave the bull$hit out, please.

And, once again since you don't seem to listen too well, leave us customers out of it.  

Marketing is marketing is marketing...admit and live with it 'cause it ain't gonna change.

[hottubdan]

So, are you saying marketing equal bull$shit?

Are you saying all marketing is lying?

Try this one:

there is no such thing as HS kool aid.

[windsurfdog]

So, are you saying marketing equal bull$shit?

Are you saying all marketing is lying?

Not at all...but if you believe there is no "stretching of the truth" in marketing then I suggest you re-evaluate your beliefs.

Try this one:

there is no such thing as HS kool aid.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious.  Please search this forum for "HS koolaid" to understand my comment to Vanguard.

[hottubdan]

Of course there is stretching the truth in marketing.  Sometimes there is outright lying, sometimes there is truth.

Unfortunately the consumer has to sort through it.

I know how the term HS kool aid is used.  I have used it myself.  In that context I have tasted Jacuzzi kool aid, Sundance kool aid and Marquis kool aid, not to mention Arctic kool aid on this site.  Never seen anyone accused of drinking anything but the HS kool aid.  So, if HS kool aid exists, so do the rest.  If the rest don't exist, neither does the HS.