Dazed and Confused

[brnelson]

I'm trying to decide on which brand for my first hot tub purchase. A month ago I knew nothing about hot tubs. After a month of research mostly on the internet I don't feel strongly that any one brand stands above the others.

I've been to a local Emerald dealer and I plan on taking a look at Hot Springs this weekend at NE Spas. I have been impressed with the Emerald brand (in particulat model M870, 8 person, good warranty, rugged construction, three pumps, spray on foam-not full foam insulation, 72 jets, foot massage), however the one thing I don't like about Emerald is that they have a plywood floor (even though it is pressure treated). I would think a poly floor would be preferable for a hot tub. Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with Emerald Spas as I cannot find many owners opinions on them.

Also initially I was against getting a full foam insulated spa (tough to locate leaks) but I am now beginning to think that as long as I have a 5 year warranty and buy from a reputable dealer the insulation method really shouldn't have any bearing on my decision. One question on full foam, however. I've read that the shells in a full foam spa rely on the foam for support and therefore are not as strong as those in a non-full foam spa. Is this correct?

It seems like Hot Springs is a pretty popular hot tub and I have read many positive posts about them. I'll be checking them out this weekend.

Any recommendations would be appreciated. As the subject states I am dazed and confused in regards to purchasing a hot tub.
                                                                                                      Thanks in advance, Bruce

[MarKee]

Hey Bruce,

I would check out all the major brands in your area.  If you are looking for a plastic bottom, the HotSpring won't have it either.  I would check out Caldera, HotSpring, Marquis, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Dimension 1.  All of these are reputable manufacturers that have been around 25+ years, some of these brands offer a plastic bottom.  Most spas that use full foam insulation are filled with soft foam, I don't know how this could support a shell with thousands of pounds of pressure on it.  Don't get caught up on how the spa is insulated, I think wet testing is a more important factor when choosing a spa.

[anne]

I'm trying to decide on which brand for my first hot tub purchase. A month ago I knew nothing about hot tubs. After a month of research mostly on the internet I don't feel strongly that any one brand stands above the others.

Also initially I was against getting a full foam insulated spa (tough to locate leaks) but I am now beginning to think that as long as I have a 5 year warranty and buy from a reputable dealer the insulation method really shouldn't have any bearing on my decision.

As the subject states I am dazed and confused in regards to purchasing a hot tub.
                                                                                                      Thanks in advance, Bruce

I think you are less dazed and confused than many! Sounds like you have already done a lot of research and thinking, and have already come to a couple of pretty wise conclusions. Before anyone jumps on that statement, I'll qualify it by saying that there are certainly quality differences out there, but there are SEVERAL very reputable brands, and among them you should pick what feels right to you from the dealer you want to work with. Personally, I think the tub feel is more important than the dealer, but there are others who'd disagree.

And yes, WET TEST!

[brnelson]

Thanks for the info and I do plan to wet test before I make any decisions. Am I placing too much emphasis on my dislike of a pressure treated plywood bottom? Are there any Emerald owners who can give me an honest opinion of their spa. I've done quite a few searches on Emerald and haven't found a lot. I did find six opinions on eopinions.com and five were positive but some of these were on older models. And lastly are there other good resources on the net on hot tubs that I should be looking at. I find this forum to be about the best but Pool and Spa Forum isn't too bad. Thanks again, Bruce

[Richs100]

Hi Bruce:

I don't know anything about Emerald Spas, but I can relate to you my experience regarding the bottom of a Hot Spring tub.  My previous tub was a 93 HS Prodigy which sat for about 11 years on a treated plywood platform in a shady area.  Because of the shade, the area wasn't always completely dry.  When I went to move the old tub to redo the area for my new tub, the bottom of the 93 Prodigy was in perfect condition.  No signs of rot or other deterioration at all.  I was very surprised.  

Hope this info helps.
Rich

[tony]

Thanks for the info and I do plan to wet test before I make any decisions. Am I placing too much emphasis on my dislike of a pressure treated plywood bottom? Are there any Emerald owners who can give me an honest opinion of their spa. I've done quite a few searches on Emerald and haven't found a lot. I did find six opinions on eopinions.com and five were positive but some of these were on older models. And lastly are there other good resources on the net on hot tubs that I should be looking at. I find this forum to be about the best but Pool and Spa Forum isn't too bad. Thanks again, Bruce

When I was buying, Emerald caught my eye and the opinions I saw were favorable.  I never got to see one because no local dealer and I ended up with a Sundance from NE Spas.  Emerald hasn't seemed to have increased their position in the market in five years.  I have only seen a couple of posts from Emerald owners over the years.  IMO, as a first time buyer, I would stick with the major brands with good national factory and dealer support.  There are plenty of choises within the group.  Amoung the majors, I wouldn't be concerned about plastic bottoms or foam support.  They all do what they do well.  NE Spas carries two of the largest and respected brands and is a good place to start.

[wmccall]

Welcome,

You seem to be going about things the right way. Remember there is no hurry, its not like a car where you really need it to get to work, You can take your time and do what is right for you.  You may get to the point where you have so much info that it gets more confusing.  I usually recommend keeping a journal to look back on before deciding.

[brnelson]

Again, thanks for the replies. I am trying to keep an open mind about this. As I said at first I was against full foam. Now I am not ruling it out. I hear favorable mention quite a bit about NE Spas. Are they a good dealer? I plan to visit the Auburn MA store this weekend. I am in the northwest corner of Rhode Island. A 30-35 mile distance wouldn't be too far to purchase and get service from a dealer, would it? Also NE Spas carry Hot Springs and Sundance. I know everyone has different preferences but would I be better off with one rather than the other?
                                 Bruce

[Chas]

Just a quick note about foam - HS uses many different types of foam built up in layers. They install a very dense foam on the back of the shell in a layer about an inch thick. This helps to support the shell, keeps the seats and floor areas from flexing when you walk on them etc. This layer is installed by a computer-controlled robotic spray arm in an environmentally-controlled tunnel. It is done before the shells are plumbed. After plumbing is installed and pressure checked twice, then a less dense foam is added around the plumbing to support it. That foam is about 10 pounds per square foot, and adds strength to the plumbing but also acts as a bond beam around the perimeter of the tub itself.

Only then are the cavities filled with softer foam - which holds more air and insulates best.

Finally the bottom of the tub is sealed with a 60 pound density shell which is just about bullet-proof. It is a custom-made plastic bottom which encapsulates all but the very bottom of the pressure-treated timbers which the spa sits on.

 8-)

[drewstar]

Hi Br Nelson,

I purchased my Tiger River from NE spas (Auburn) and can recomend them.  They are a quality dealer.

As far as shell streagth, the foam does support the shell and thousands of pounds of water pressure.  I've never had a concern about its streaght.  I've heard folks talk about "Flimsy shells" on full foam tubs, but the watkins products I've seen, honestly, I don't know what they are talking about.  Once again, like the full foam issue, if you buy a quality tub, you'll do well.  

[Spiderman]

I was going to say similar things that Chas stated about HS foam to which I'll add that HS foam ends up on average to have an R value of R-40.

I've never cut a cooler in half to check, but I'm going to guess that there is foam inside of it for insulation, not air.  Based on your comment about initially looking to avoid full foam because it is harder to find leaks, it sound like you're expecting your new tub to leak at some point.  

There are some good manufacturers of tubs out there.  You'll have to test them out and feel good about the dealer you're buying from to make a decision that is right for you.

[stuart]

Let me give you a different perspective on sprayed on "foam - not full foam". Three to four years ago MAAX industries (they make Coleman) started spraying a 5 lb density foam on their shells, plumbing and outer walls...

I thought it was a good way of doing TP insulation however, we are now experiencing leaks to a very high degree on those spas because the foam could not expand against itself it expanded out pulling on all of the small air injector lines and either breaking them or pulling them loose. When we pull them out most of the nipples are pulled to an angle.

Had they filled the cabinet I believe they could have avoided most of this.

Not a bash on TP insulation just an observation from servicing them

I personally like the Icene foam in my Marquis backed with a layer of "Low-E" wrap. It's a lighter density with the low-E around the sides and bottom but then everyone has their own choice.

We've sold and serviced most types of insulation over the years and learned from experience what we like best.

[tony]

Again, thanks for the replies. I am trying to keep an open mind about this. As I said at first I was against full foam. Now I am not ruling it out. I hear favorable mention quite a bit about NE Spas. Are they a good dealer? I plan to visit the Auburn MA store this weekend. I am in the northwest corner of Rhode Island. A 30-35 mile distance wouldn't be too far to purchase and get service from a dealer, would it? Also NE Spas carry Hot Springs and Sundance. I know everyone has different preferences but would I be better off with one rather than the other?
                                 Bruce

Both HotSpring and Sundance are quality manufacturers and probably the top two sellers.  You would be fine with either.  I have had good experience with NE Spas and woudl certainly purchase from them again.

FWIW, fear of leaks would not be a reason for me to chose against full foam.

[spahappy]

Let me give you a different perspective on sprayed on "foam - not full foam". Three to four years ago MAAX industries (they make Coleman) started spraying a 5 lb density foam on their shells, plumbing and outer walls...

I thought it was a good way of doing TP insulation however, we are now experiencing leaks to a very high degree on those spas because the foam could not expand against itself it expanded out pulling on all of the small air injector lines and either breaking them or pulling them loose. When we pull them out most of the nipples are pulled to an angle.

Had they filled the cabinet I believe they could have avoided most of this.

Not a bash on TP insulation just an observation from servicing them

I personally like the Icene foam in my Marquis backed with a layer of "Low-E" wrap. It's a lighter density with the low-E around the sides and bottom but then everyone has their own choice.

We've sold and serviced most types of insulation over the years and learned from experience what we like best.

Stuart, COLEMAN SPAS DOES NOT SPRAY FOAM ON THE BACKSIDE OF JETS OR OUTER WALLS!!!!!

You must be thinking of Elite Spas made by the same parent company...MAAX As of a year ago when I was at the MAAX plant in Chandler, Elite was still spraying foam on jets, not Coleman!!!!

If you have any questions on this please pm me!!!

Coleman hasn't sprayed foam inside spas for a long time my friend.

[stuart]

It was on the Elite line by MAAX I thought I clarified that, I guess I didn't.