Need Help comparing tubs

[East_TX_Spa]

Dadgum ya'll, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, not a board meeting.  This is a venue to offer opinions and respond to challenges from the other folks on here with intimate knowledge regarding the particular subject.  Come one, come all, throw it out there, defend your point, challenge others, let the people who come here seeking information decide for themselves who is more credible.

This isn't a goat-smelling nanny state where adults have to be coddled.  I sincerely hope that the fine folks who populate this forum are the types to engage in rugged individualism and make their own decisions.

Terminator

[anne]

I will knock them, any spa company that puts a lifetime warranty on the structure is not worth the paper it is written on. They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years. It is misleading, as most people will only remember the the lifetime part. 10 years down the road if your shell is cracked and you call Arctic, they will ask you "is it leaking through the fiberglass" and when you say no. They will so sorry that is not part of the lifetime warranty.

I would not buy or recommend and Arctic for that one reasons, makes me think what else are they BSing on.

I'm having a little trouble following you, since this sentence does not make sense: "They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years."

The lifetime warranty says " Warrants the spa shell to the customer against water loss due to structural failure..." The 5 year SURFACE warranty is about blistering/peeling/delaminating- has nothing to do with leakage.

What is BS? What are you knocking?

I will also agree that if there is an offer for transfer of warranty Kirby has been promised that I'd get it in writing not from just the dealer (who may change businesses or locations) but also from Arctic central. It is pretty clear in my manual: "extend only to original consumer purchaser of spa if purchased and originally installed within the boundaries of Canada and the United States."

Any luck wet testing, Kirby?

I had forgotten about the upgrade capacity of the Arctic. Want to convert your Signature series to a Legend? Just add jets! That has some appeal too, but the cost could be high.

[spahappy]

Hello all, I see some arguments never die over here! I've decided to pull myself out of a heated discussion on the corn burning stove forum I frequent to address what I see as some non factual information on Thermolock or heat lock insulating systems.
  

Hey Kirby,

As others have said, both Sundance and Artic have very good reputations. And although one employs full foam, and the other a thermolock design, for the most part, both of these tubs properly working with a good cover will cost/provide very similliar insualtion rates.  So I wound't let that be the deciding factor. For me the big differenance is the Artic will be cycing on and off during the day, while the full foams dosent.

 

I sell both Jacuzzi/full foam and Coleman/thermolock spas in the great fridgid state of North Dakota.

Why would a well designed thermolock spa be cycling on and off all day? In a Coleman spa the number one jet pump is hooked to the heater. This pump is also the pump that is used during filtation cycles which can be programed for any time and length. All spas need to filter whether it be through the jet pimps or a circ pump thats fact not fluff.

In the winter months I have my Coleman set to filter from 7:30PM to midnight the second filter cycle is set for 4:30AM to 8:30AM. I know for a fact that my spa recaptures waste heat from the pumps when they are running so why not kill two birds with one stone and set the filtration cycle around the coldest part of the night.

Two nights ago we had temps of -34 below without wind chill. I was up at 3:30AM using the little girls room. My spa sits outside the bathroom window and I can hear the pumps when they run. At the coldest part of the night which was -34 my spa was not calling for heat.

Now lets talk about a full foam spa like Jacuzzi. They use a 24 hour circ pump for filtation and heat. Although this system does allow the spa to recapture some heat most of it is allowed to escape thought venting needed in the cabinet to keep the equipment running cooler. Now if I had a Jacuzzi outside my bathroom window of course I wouldn't realize that anything was different because the circ pump would be running 24/7 like it's intended to do. However If I were to brave -34 and walk out to check the topside on that spa my guess is that the heat light would be on.

Both Jacuzzi and Coleman spas are very efficent spas. In our North Dakota winters we can't find a notable difference in energy useage between the two brands.

Sorry I got so long winded, but I just had to share some first hand knowlege, for what it's worth......

[perogie]

i recieved the answer from sundance today about proper spa foundations, here is there responce.
Preparing A Good Foundation
Your spa needs a solid foundation. The area that your spa sits on must be able to support the weight of the spa, the water in it and those who use it.
If the foundation is inadequate, it may shift or settle after the spa is in place.
NOTE: Damage caused by inadequate or improper foundation support is not covered by the spa warranty. It is the responsibility of the
spa owner to provide a proper foundation for the spa. Example: free standing bricks, gravel, pavers, plywood, and railroad ties are not
considered proper foundations.
Place the spa on an elevated foundation so that water drains away from it. Proper drainage will keep components dry from rain and wet weather.
A spa filled with water is heavy. If you are installing your spa on an elevated wood deck or other structure, it is advisable to consult a structural
engineer or contractor to ensure that the structure will support the weight. It is strongly recommended that a qualified, licensed contractor prepare
the foundation for your spa. There is a 4” minimum depth required for a concrete pad. If you are installing your spa indoors, pay close attention to
the flooring beneath it. Remember, a spa filled with water can cause moisture damage. Choose flooring that won’t be spoiled or stained. See page
23 for the average filled weight and overall dimensions for your spa.
Your Sundance retailer can help you with foundations and more
Your Sundance retailer has a wealth of information and experience about how to get the most out of your Sundance spa. Ask your retailer to see
the Sundance Idea Book to view creative spa decorating and a wide range of installations. Your Sundance retailer also has a full line of accessories,
surround kits, and gazebos that are engineered to compliment your Sundance spa. They also offer several factory approved aftermarket foundation
products that are specifically designed for spa use and allow for installation without concrete.

So there is an added expence with the sundance to make sure you have it on a proper foundation.
otherwize your warranty is void.

Arctic's only spefication is level ground.

With the warranty issues on the shell.   If the arcylic cracks or blisters or whatever and does not cause a loss of water.  in any tub this is easy to fix.  All company's have a 5 year warranty on these happening.

But the difference that comes in is that Arctic offers a "lifetime warranty" on the fiberglass structure.   Not a 5 year warranty.  the reason is below.

arcylic has no structure strength to support the water and people.  that is why every company needs to bond something to the arcylic to give strength.  There are many different ways of doing this.
1) twice hand rolled fiberglass with 100% neat resin.  this produces a self-supporting hull
2)some fiberglass and some foam(1 inch)
3)some fiberglass and 4 inches of foam
4) some figerglass and 100% foamed cavity.

1-  does not need a structured foundation to put the spa on.

2-4 all need some form of structure foundation for the spa warranty.

Fiberglass cracks do to flex, just like when you want to break a thin piece of metal.. you flex it back and forth and it eventualy cracks.   So if you prevent flexing you prevent cracking.  That is why the other company's require a structured foundation to prevent flex.

Foam is cheaper than fiberglass.


for my asking about a thermos and pump sitting outside.
I was not saying an arctic was a thermos.  I was just asking what would freeze first... a thermos with water in it or a pump with water in it at -30.  we know the answer is pump and quickly.

both FF and TP spas water will take days to freeze.  and yes the water in the FF may outlast the TP.   But both of these are cases where you have insulated the water.  TP also insulates the pump.  FF tubs do not come standard with pump insulation protection.  I agree that FF company's should provide their customers with feature they could purchase to protect the pumps from the cold.

Now for the comment on "no pumps running not heating"

My coleman friend said it best.   We are recovering pump waste heat.  I do not know the exact number but its at least 30% of the power of the motor that is lost through heat.   So since pump 1 on coleman and arctic tubs is what is used for filtration.  You can set the filtration from 0-8 hours a day.   most of the time the 8 hours of filtration will produce enough heat so the heater is on activated.   So its a bonus feature of these spas.   I'm not saying that FF are bad or worse.  

Where this can also help is when you flip the lid and even out all spas.   Once the lid is open the heat is leaving.  and it doesnt matter well insulated underneath.   But if you are in the tub running 2=hp pumps on high speed you will have 2kw of heating power helping you keep your water warm... This means the power hungry 5.5Kw heater will no activate as quickly.   The less the 5.5Kw heater runs the less power you will use.

[tony]

Here we go again.  Another A$$hole selling Arctics.  Just when Arctic was starting to get some credibiltiy here we get more idiot sales BS from an Arctic salesman.  And I thought we were beyond this.

I apologize to all the decent Arctic owners here.  You don't need bad salesmanship tarnishing a good spa.

[hottubdan]

I'm having a little trouble following you, since this sentence does not make sense: "They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years."

The lifetime warranty says " Warrants the spa shell to the customer against water loss due to structural failure..." The 5 year SURFACE warranty is about blistering/peeling/delaminating- has nothing to do with leakage.

What is BS? What are you knocking?

Anne,

What is BS is what less educated, less sophisticated shoppers hear from salespeople, [glow]Lifetime Warranty[/glow].  Without proper disclosure, shoppers will often think the shell warranty covers the acrylic as well as the fiberglass.

The lifetime warranty provided by a manufacturer may or may not be worth the paper it is written on.  But, it opens up an avenue for deceptive selling.

I would be curious if anyone has ever collected on a lifetime warranty from a spa manufacturer on a spa more than 5 years old and what it really ended up costing.

[Chad]

i recieved the answer from sundance today about proper spa foundations, here is there responce.
Preparing A Good Foundation
Your spa needs a solid foundation. The area that your spa sits on must be able to support the weight of the spa, the water in it and those who use it.
If the foundation is inadequate, it may shift or settle after the spa is in place.
NOTE: Damage caused by inadequate or improper foundation support is not covered by the spa warranty. It is the responsibility of the
spa owner to provide a proper foundation for the spa. Example: free standing bricks, gravel, pavers, plywood, and railroad ties are not
considered proper foundations.
Place the spa on an elevated foundation so that water drains away from it. Proper drainage will keep components dry from rain and wet weather.
A spa filled with water is heavy. If you are installing your spa on an elevated wood deck or other structure, it is advisable to consult a structural
engineer or contractor to ensure that the structure will support the weight. It is strongly recommended that a qualified, licensed contractor prepare
the foundation for your spa. There is a 4” minimum depth required for a concrete pad. If you are installing your spa indoors, pay close attention to
the flooring beneath it. Remember, a spa filled with water can cause moisture damage. Choose flooring that won’t be spoiled or stained. See page
23 for the average filled weight and overall dimensions for your spa.
Your Sundance retailer can help you with foundations and more
Your Sundance retailer has a wealth of information and experience about how to get the most out of your Sundance spa. Ask your retailer to see
the Sundance Idea Book to view creative spa decorating and a wide range of installations. Your Sundance retailer also has a full line of accessories,
surround kits, and gazebos that are engineered to compliment your Sundance spa. They also offer several factory approved aftermarket foundation
products that are specifically designed for spa use and allow for installation without concrete.

So there is an added expence with the sundance to make sure you have it on a proper foundation.
otherwize your warranty is void.

Arctic's only spefication is level ground.

With the warranty issues on the shell.   If the arcylic cracks or blisters or whatever and does not cause a loss of water.  in any tub this is easy to fix.  All company's have a 5 year warranty on these happening.

But the difference that comes in is that Arctic offers a "lifetime warranty" on the fiberglass structure.   Not a 5 year warranty.  the reason is below.

arcylic has no structure strength to support the water and people.  that is why every company needs to bond something to the arcylic to give strength.  There are many different ways of doing this.
1) twice hand rolled fiberglass with 100% neat resin.  this produces a self-supporting hull
2)some fiberglass and some foam(1 inch)
3)some fiberglass and 4 inches of foam
4) some figerglass and 100% foamed cavity.

1-  does not need a structured foundation to put the spa on.

2-4 all need some form of structure foundation for the spa warranty.

Fiberglass cracks do to flex, just like when you want to break a thin piece of metal.. you flex it back and forth and it eventualy cracks.   So if you prevent flexing you prevent cracking.  That is why the other company's require a structured foundation to prevent flex.

Foam is cheaper than fiberglass.


for my asking about a thermos and pump sitting outside.
I was not saying an arctic was a thermos.  I was just asking what would freeze first... a thermos with water in it or a pump with water in it at -30.  we know the answer is pump and quickly.

both FF and TP spas water will take days to freeze.  and yes the water in the FF may outlast the TP.   But both of these are cases where you have insulated the water.  TP also insulates the pump.  FF tubs do not come standard with pump insulation protection.  I agree that FF company's should provide their customers with feature they could purchase to protect the pumps from the cold.

Now for the comment on "no pumps running not heating"

My coleman friend said it best.   We are recovering pump waste heat.  I do not know the exact number but its at least 30% of the power of the motor that is lost through heat.   So since pump 1 on coleman and arctic tubs is what is used for filtration.  You can set the filtration from 0-8 hours a day.   most of the time the 8 hours of filtration will produce enough heat so the heater is on activated.   So its a bonus feature of these spas.   I'm not saying that FF are bad or worse.  

Where this can also help is when you flip the lid and even out all spas.   Once the lid is open the heat is leaving.  and it doesnt matter well insulated underneath.   But if you are in the tub running 2=hp pumps on high speed you will have 2kw of heating power helping you keep your water warm... This means the power hungry 5.5Kw heater will no activate as quickly.   The less the 5.5Kw heater runs the less power you will use.

Perogie,

Unless you're married to Fergie, please keep all your sh!t to yourself.

[Reese]

i recieved the answer from sundance...

Perogie, I found it interesting that you made sure to  capitalize A****c, while not capitalizing the competition.  You may want to refine your sales spiel.  Attempting to sell the fiberglass shell backing as the reason your tub doesn't need a prepared base is a crock.  If you put your tub on unprepared ground, without its "forever floor", and one corner sinks, the wieght of the water in the tub will rip your second layer of fiberglass apart.  The floor and strong shell are good features, but know which benefit goes with each.

Tom/Graybeard, if you happen upon this thread, you may want to consider requesting that your salespeople stay away, and let the satisfied owners continue to build your reputation. It seems every time someone who has imbibed in the A****c kool-aid gets on they can't help but go overboard and show the way you teach them to bash the competition while selling your features.

On a positive note, if perogie hangs around, a bull-slinging contest with Term might be fun to watch.

[spahappy]

I'm sorry, but I find the last few replies very rude! Why is it that certain well known posters/spa saleman on this forum can drone on and one about what they see as the benifits of the brand of spa they sell and claim they have " the best filtration/technology/insulation in the industry"  and thats fine. But when an Arctic or Cal spa salesperson posts, they get attacked, insulted, and bereated.

So what if all other spas have to be put on a base except Arctic. How many people will plop a $10,000 down in the dirt, get real, Show me one spa saleperson on this forum that doesn't push a feature thats unique to the brand of spa they sell, and tout it as a benifit over the competition.

You want us around to help with install, chemical, electrical and did I pay too much questions but when we do what we do which is sell....we're sleeze bag salespeople.

And why is it that  Arctic salespeople get treated so badly. There's more than one spa manufacturer that serves koolaid to their salespeople....I've been around this forum for a long time and even though there are many happy satisfied Arctic spa owners posting here...,Arctic dealers don't stay long because of the abuse they receive.

I for one think the diverse group of posters with years of knowlege on this forum is what makes it what it is. It doesn't matter if your an owner or a dealer. The knowlege you bring to this forum about hot tubs is valuble, and deserves respect.

[RUBADUBDUB]

For the extra 800 dollars you get 2 years more warrenty on the 780 series. You also goto a circ pump instead of using pump 1. I sell more burlingtons than Caymans.  Wet test both, some people prefer the cayman some prefer the Pillowless style of the burlington.

[East_TX_Spa]

Did Perogie, son of Muskogee, ever say that he was an Arctic salesperson?  If he is, he should proudly proclaim it to the world.

Be not ashamed of your brand...yea, shout it from the mountaintop with dignity and pride and the people shall be yours....should you make a lick of sense.

Term