Outdoor Clock?

[drewstar]

....the point of of disagreement seems to be whether the fact that thermopane/heatlock attempts to capture and utilize waste heat implies that they run the pumps in order to generate heat (your stated contention) or if it is a byproduct of other necessary operations (my position).  IMO attempting to capture waste heat in order to reduce heating costs is  different than your initial statement that "pumps are run primarily to generate heat for the cabinet".

I own a FF tub with a circ pump, so I don't have any skin in the TP/jet pump heat issue, I just didn't want to leave your (IMO) inaccurate statements unchallenged.  Although interesting for some of us, FF/TP discussions tend to hijack threads.  We are a long way from outdoor clocks.  My apologies, Northwoods.

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Running the larger pumps for several cylces a day for filtration is not mandatory for clean water.  Anyone with a Watkins tub can tell you that. Now, TP tubs depend on it, as it also is tied directly into the Thermal design of the tub.  Don't you agree?


I don't understand how anyone who understand how TP works can  say that running the pumps is not primary to the thermal system.  Once again, I'll ask,  please explain this to me.   One of us is very confused....or stuborn.
Thanks for challengeing what you considered to be inaccurate, (hoenstly, I respect that), but you haven't answered any of my questions or responded  with any infromation that applies to the how TP works and how they depend on pump heat.  Or the fact that I provided you with information from a TP maker who clearly states the heat from the pumps is key to the heat efficeny system.   I think you are confused.

To keep it on track of clocks, Reese, if you can prove that cycling the pumps is not a primary to the TP design, I'll buy you that clock, and I'll eat the box.  IF not, you can send the clock to me? Deal?



 


 
 

[anne]

Drewstar, there is nothing about this statement that indicates that the pumps run *to* produce heat- just that the heat produced is *used* to help heat the water, not dissipated.

 "The incidental (waste) heat that all motors and heaters produce is trapped in this sealed air space and naturally transferred through the spa shell, directly heating the spa water. Recovering waste heat from the motors and heaters significantly reduces the overall heating costs of Arctic Spas. "

If my tub falls below the set temp, the heater comes on, not the pumps! The pump heat may reduce what the heater has to do, but there is no way that you can argue that the maintenance of tub temp depends on pumps running.

Also, to quote you here, "TP do run the pumps to generate heat. Absolutely. I would guess the electrical usage (runing the heater) would go up significanlty if you took a TP tub in the dead of winter and set the filtration cycles to minimum, if not all the way off.  TP tubs depend on the larger pumps running to insulate. It's not a  ancillary component of the insulation system, but a primary one."

Sure, electrical use would go up if there is less incidental waste heat to recapture, but how can you substantiate that electrical usage would go up "substantially"? It would be just as accurate to say that electrical usage is minimized by the normal filtration cycling, compared to a FF tub.

[drewstar]

Drewstar, there is nothing about this statement that indicates that the pumps run *to* produce heat- just that the heat produced is *used* to help heat the water, not dissipated.

 "The incidental (waste) heat that all motors and heaters produce is trapped in this sealed air space and naturally transferred through the spa shell, directly heating the spa water. Recovering waste heat from the motors and heaters significantly reduces the overall heating costs of Arctic Spas. "

If my tub falls below the set temp, the heater comes on, not the pumps! The pump heat may reduce what the heater has to do, but there is no way that you can argue that the maintenance of tub temp depends on pumps running.

Also, to quote you here, "TP do run the pumps to generate heat. Absolutely. I would guess the electrical usage (runing the heater) would go up significanlty if you took a TP tub in the dead of winter and set the filtration cycles to minimum, if not all the way off.  TP tubs depend on the larger pumps running to insulate. It's not a  ancillary component of the insulation system, but a primary one."

Sure, electrical use would go up if there is less incidental waste heat to recapture, but how can you substantiate that electrical usage would go up "substantially"? It would be just as accurate to say that electrical usage is minimized by the normal filtration cycling, compared to a FF tub.

Ann your electric bill would go through the roof trying to keep a TP tub warm in the in winter time wihout cycling the pumps on.  Could you? Yes. But it really wouldn't be a thermal system as they describe. it's how it works, why is this even being debated?

 Would you want to? no. It wouldn't be considered a viable system. In order for a TP desing to be competive with a FF desing in winter insualtion,  the pumps are needed to cycle.  If Artic could get away from keeping the water clean without cycling the pumps, they would be very hesitent to do so as it would have a direct impact to it's insualtion system. They are joined at the hips.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I'll disagree with ya drew. A TP spa simply ATTEMPTS to take advantage of the heat produced by the pump(s). While there is evidence that one brand of spa with one type of insulation may be more energy efficient than another brand of spa with another type of insulation, there's NO hard evidence that one style of insulation is any better or worse than another. Until someone takes 2 of the EXACT same spas, insulates each of them with the different insulating methods and test them side by side under the exact same conditions, that evidence wont exist.

It should further be noted, that while many people think there are only two type of insulation methods, full foam and TP, the quality of the workman ship and materials in either can GREATLY effect the actual insulating abilities.

[Chad]

For the record my Jacuzzi is "full foamed" and it has a 24/7 circ, programable cycles, and no clock. One just shuts the power off and turns it back on when you want the first cycle to begin. For example: I turned my tub on @ 2:00pm after my last fill and have it set to F3 ( (1) 30 min cycle every 6 hours ). It knows what time it is but doesn't display the actual time on the display. I'm sure this is called something but I don't know what? And yes, it does kick on exactly every 6 hours. 8-)

[drewstar]

I'll disagree with ya drew. A TP spa simply ATTEMPTS to take advantage of the heat produced by the pump(s). While there is evidence that one brand of spa with one type of insulation may be more energy efficient than another brand of spa with another type of insulation, there's NO hard evidence that one style of insulation is any better or worse than another. Until someone takes 2 of the EXACT same spas, insulates each of them with the different insulating methods and test them side by side under the exact same conditions, that evidence wont exist.

It should further be noted, that while many people think there are only two type of insulation methods, full foam and TP, the quality of the workman ship and materials in either can GREATLY effect the actual insulating abilities.

[glow]Attempts?  [/glow]are you saying it tries to, but doesn't actually achieve it?

I agree that there are many factors to the TP tub (integrity of the dead air space comes quickly to mind), but an efficent thermal design doesn't attempt to capture heat.  it does. If it didn't caputer the heat, it wouldn't be TP tub.  It would just a thinly insualted tub.  
 

Now, your'e bringing it down the road of which is better (ff or TP and testing). I don't even need to go near  that.  A thermal desing DOES (not attempts to) but DOES reclaim the heat from the pumps to insulate the dead air space. That's taken from the Artic literature.

Are you claiming that the warm air barrier heated by the pumps has little to no impact on its insulating abilities?

[anne]

it's how it works, why is this even being debated?

Its being debated since some of dont agree with you. I do not read the Arctic manual and come to the conclusion my energy bill would be astromomical with 2 vs 4 filtration cycles per day, just that the "heatlock" helps to redirect energy that would otherwise be lost. I have TRIED 2 vs 3 vs 4 and (while I have no separate meter on my tub) I dont see a difference in cost that correlates.

[drewstar]

Its being debated since some of dont agree with you. I do not read the Arctic manual and come to the conclusion my energy bill would be astromomical with 2 vs 4 filtration cycles per day, just that the "heatlock" helps to redirect energy that would otherwise be lost. I have TRIED 2 vs 3 vs 4 and (while I have no separate meter on my tub) I dont see a difference in cost that correlates.

Try none and see what happens.

[Reese]

... Don't you agree?...One of us is very confused....or stuborn....if you can prove that cycling the pumps is not a primary to the TP design, I'll buy you that clock, and I'll eat the box.  IF not, you can send the clock to me? Deal?

No, I don't agree. :-?
Yes, one of us is confused or stubborn. :-/
No, even though I'd love to see you eat a box... I wouldn't agree to that deal, because as with Vermonter's ozone posts, you and I can read the same words and come to different conclusions, so I'm sure we couldn't agree on a winner.
I'm comfortable leaving it with you half-wrong --mistaken on the circ pump statement, and a misunderstood genius on TP.

I see the cavalry has finally arrived.  I'll leave it to them to try to explain it to you.

[tanstaafl2]

Not sure where it fits in the debate but my tub is FF, has a 24/7 circ pump with O3 AND runs the main pumps, if desired, on a filtration cycle for a prescribed period in the morning and evening each day which supposedly acts as a skimming or cleaning cycle to pull water through the filters and purge the plumbing periodically. Seems to work as I have had little difficulty maintaining the water.

I believe I can also change the circ pump to only run for certain periods of the day instead of 24/7 but have never seen a need to do so.

It also has a clock on the control pad so I haven't really felt a need to buy an additional clock for the tub area. But it could really use a light in the LCD display because it is hard to see at night, even when the interior tub lights are on. Instead I have a little key chain red LED light stuck on the tub next to the control panel so that I can see the time/temp display and the button labels when I need to.  

Seemed like an obvious oversight of the tub to me to not have a lighted panel and I think the newer 2007 upgraded panel, at least on Vita spas, is lighted now. Not sure if the Reflections line gets the new fancy panel this year as an option.

[anne]

Try none and see what happens.
 

Well that is a silly challenge, since I'm not going to leave my water unfiltered. If the difference between 2 and 4 is not enough for you, why would the difference between 0-2 be any better?

[drewstar]

I'm comfortable leaving it with you half-wrong --mistaken on the circ pump statement, and a misunderstood genius on TP.

I'm not. You've done nothing to explain your position, or reply to my questions, but you'll walk away saying your happy to stil say I'm wrong?


Way to go Reese.  
 

[txwillie]

a BTU is a BTU. A Kw is a Kw. 1 Kw = 3413 BTU. Makes no difference if it is from the energy supplied to the heater or from waste heat from energy supplied to the pump motor. There is a difference however in that BTUs (therefore the Kw) from the heater are transferred to the water with near 100% efficiency.

I can't believe that I actually contributed to this drivel.

txwillie (mechanical engineer)

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Lets see if I can work on a new approach here  

Lets take 2 spas, 1 full foamed and 1 TP. Imagine that you then put 15kw hours of electricity into each spa. Now, I think we can safely assume, that any energy that isn't lost out the side of the spa cabinet is going into heating the water (or for this matter, the water + any area up to the outside of the cabinet).

So, you put 15kw hours of electricity into each spa. Would you agree that the spa that loses the LEAST amount of heat (energy) through the cabinet (to the atmosphere) is the most efficient?

And how the hell we got to this, from me trying to sell a clock is beyond me.

[drewstar]

sigh.  

Never in my life would  I have thought that I would be explaining how a TP design works to an Artic owner or find myself beating my head against the table trying to convince an Artic owner that heat from the motors is primary to it's design and trhermal efficenty.