HotSpring Clean Cycle

[Gomboman]

I typically use the Clean cycle after my daily dichlor dose. The spa runs for 10 minutes and then shuts off automatically. I believe this is standard for some other spas as well.

I have a HS spa with two jet pumps. I've never had any issues with this method but I'm wondering if would be better to run both pumps since the Clean cycle only activates pump #1. Correct me if I'm wrong with this.

When I shock with dichlor I always use both pumps so all the lines are exposed to the high level of chlorine. Is there a risk of bacteria contamination in the lines when only using the Clean cycle on a daily basis?

[Vanguard]

No need to run both pumps.  

The purpose of the Clean cycle is to circulate the water so the chemicals can get evenly distributed AND make it easier for you.  Most other spas require you to go back out to shut it off.  Just one of the things I really like my Hot Spring.

[anne]

This got brought up as a side-topic in the "oops, did bromine instead of Chlorine.." thread......I'm with Gombo in wondering about the thoroughness of the "clean" (or "boost" if you have an Arctic) cycle, as not all pumps run. And do most spas really require that you go out to shut them off? That seems odd. Dealers?

[Chad]

My Jacuzzi's programmable cycles, also only activate pump 1 for 20 minutes in low speed. Call me overkill if you must but I always turn both pumps on high and turn on every air injector for atleast 10 min after adding my post soak dichlor dose. And Vanguard, yes if I forget to shut it off it will do it on it's own, after 20 mins.
Btw, 11 weeks into my fill, I still haven't had cloudy water. Maybe this helps some. :-/

[tony]

I run all my pumps and air blower after adding dichlor.  I only run them for a couple of minutes and shut off.  You want the water in all the plumbing to get sanitized.  Vermonter has addressed this a couple of times.

[Reese]

I also run both my pumps and air blower when adding dichlor.  Running just the clean cycle would leave one pump system and the air lines untreated, a bad idea IMO.  I shut the blower off after the dichlor is in, and leave the pumps running until they shut off on their own at 15 min.  When I go back to cover the tub (10-15 min), I run the blower again, long enough to purge the line and get treated water in when it refills.  

[Gary]

True purpose of a clean cycle is that any spa with one of those silly pond pumps is not enough to keep a spa clean, so the they use the jet pump to filter more water.

[drewstar]

True purpose of a clean cycle is that any spa with one of those silly pond pumps is not enough to keep a spa clean, so the they use the jet pump to filter more water.

Of course.

A circ pump isn't enough to quickly disolve and disapate chemicals. You want turbulent full tub water movement. A circ pump's purpose isn't to disolve bulk chemicals rapidly.  

If your tub has a circ pump or not,  anyone on a dichlor program is (should)   be adding chemicals with a least one of the main pumps going.  

Your posts strikes me as a negative attack on circ pumps, but I don't see how it makes a difference in this context.  The fact is, there are a ton of quality tubs out thier with circ pumps and the tubs are clean. So what was your point? I completley missed it.  I am lead to belive that a circs pump purpose is not to move water through the filters, but to  move heated water throught the tub, work in conjuction with the O3 system and keep the water from stagnating, but not filtering.  

??

[Vermonter]

This is a repost of one of  my posts on the "oops, bromine..." thread:

"2)  A shortcoming of the "clean" feature in HS tubs:
 
Assuming you have a HS tub and assuming that it is a two pump version, then unless HS has changed their approach, when you use the "clean" cycle, it only operates one of the two pumps (and the related valves, diverters, etc.).  This is the case in my 2001 Grandee and I believe (not sure) that it is still the case.  So, whenever you perform your routine dosing or shock/disinfection, I recommend that you manually turn on both pumps / pump trains, open up all valves, etc. so that every "wetted" surface within the hot tub (hidden plumbing included) is exposed to the chlorine.  
 
If you don't - let's say you operate just the "clean" cycle and it only turns on one pump - then you would have a whole pump and all it's associate plumbing that is not being disinfected.  It sits there for a night, or two, or a week...with microbes unchecked in a warm environment...and, when you use the tub the next time and active that pump, you can dump in several liters (or more) of microbe laden water into the tub water that you are trying to enjoy.  This could equate to many billions of organisms.    
 
Would it always be a problem?  Probably not, but I, for one, don't want to take that chance given that all you need to do is run both pumps for about 10 minutes after you add your normal "after soak" chlorine."


I'd also like to clarify something.  Filtration in hot tubs is, to the best of my knowledge, totally ineffective with respect to reducing bacteria concentrations that might be present and certainly ineffective against viruses.  Depending on the filter's pore size (and whether it has a nominal rating or an absolute rating - I think all hot tub filters are nominally rated?) it may be effective on Giardia and less so on Cryptopsporidium (both are protozoans and much larger than bacteria).  

The reason for my recommending operation of two pumps has nothing to do with filtration - rather it is because I strongly believe that you need to ensure that a killing dose (and sufficient contact time) of a primary disinfectant is distributed throughout all of your tub's plumbing and associated wetted surfaces.  The goal is to achieve, always, a microbiologically safe tub.

To me, it would seem that it would be very easy for HS (or others that may have a "clean" cycle that does not use all pumps) to change the programming to enable both pumps to be running during the 10 minute "clean" cycle.

Best,

Vermonter

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 On a side note.

Alot of spas also have purge cycles where 1 pump will run for 20 to 30 seconds then shut off and pump 2 will do the same,usually it will do this every 12 hours.  Reasons for this are so the water in the line does not become stagnant from lack of use of the spa.

[BBoppin]

I only have a couple discrepencies (sp) with this issue. One is that circ pumps turn over several thousand gallons of water in a 24 hour period. It is hard to believe that a 500 gallon closed water system, with 100% no bypass or suction fittings would not allow several gallons of water to come in contact with dichlor given an ample amount was introduced. HS in particular the way that plumbing water and physics work together. A process called venturi which Mazzei could elaborate on would most likely ensure that the water in that jet pump line would inevitibely come in contact with sanitation. Either pulling water slowly from the jet orfice itself or pulling backward from the jet pump filter as th circ pump filter is next door to the jet pump filters. Also giardia will not get caught in your filter as giardia in its shell is less than 20 microns. giardia hatched is less than 1 micron. Most spa filters are 20 mic. Unless you are using micro-clean. which has its own issues. But hey I live in an area that sells hydro electricity all over the world. The more you program your spa and the more jet pumps you run saves me money on my bill. So have at it. Lots of good stuff on this sight. Have a nice day. 8-)

[Vermonter]

Hi BBoppin,

Thanks - a bit more info:

1)  The issue I have is not (at all) with the circ pump and the Mazzei injector associated with that pump train.  The problem is that, in HS tubs with two main pump trains (the circ pump is a third), the "clean" cycle only activates one of those two pump trains.  The second train is, in essence a closed system at that point and nearly all of the water contained within that pump train will not see the disinfectant that the other pump train(s) and the main tub itself are seeing (no matter how long the circ pump is running).  

If your free chlorine concentration is close to "0" when you use the tub the next time, then all the water that was caught up in that unused pump train will dump into the tub and you run the risk of a microbiologically unsafe tub.  This can easily mean the introduction of billions or bacteria into the main tub.  As stated before...that doesn't necessarily mean you will have a problem (many are non-pahtogens), but it simply isn't worth the risk (in my opinion).

2)  Regarding Giardia, you are correct.  Giardia are typically 12 - 15 microns in length and about a third to a half of that in width.  Cryptosporidium are spherical and 4 - 6 microns in diameter (typical).  If standard hot tub filters are 20 microns, then they would not pick up those microbes.  Many bacteria (not all) are less than 1 micron in size - some are as small as 0.25 microns or so.  Those certainly won't be picked up with a 20 micron filter or even the 1 micron Micro-Clean filter you refer to.  Many viruses are smaller than 0.1 microns - they certainly won't be picked up by a (non-charged) filter of 1 or 20 microns regardless of whether the filters are nominal or absolute rated.  

3)  Probably this should go in another thread, but my experience over 5 years with my HS Grandee and HS's no-bypass filtration, has demonstrated to  me that I simply do not need to run the main pumps on any type of regular basis to keep my water crystal clear (visually).  During periods of non-use, I may not use the main pumps at all - an average (total) time of using them is significantly less than one hour per week; soimetimes they are not turned on at all.  During periods of tub use, the time involved in the "hydrotherapy" is similarly sufficient so I do not need to run any supplemental filtration cycles. - other than approximately 10 minutes of operating both pumps after dichlor addition (after use) but that is for disinfection and not filtration purposes.  I read of many tub owners running main pumps several hours per day (or more) - and am truly grateful that I do not need to do that with my HS.

Vermonter

[Gary]

Of course.

A circ pump isn't enough to quickly disolve and disapate chemicals. You want turbulent full tub water movement. A circ pump's purpose isn't to disolve bulk chemicals rapidly.  

If your tub has a circ pump or not,  anyone on a dichlor program is (should)   be adding chemicals with a least one of the main pumps going.  

Your posts strikes me as a negative attack on circ pumps, but I don't see how it makes a difference in this context.  The fact is, there are a ton of quality tubs out thier with circ pumps and the tubs are clean. So what was your point? I completley missed it.  I am lead to belive that a circs pump purpose is not to move water through the filters, but to  move heated water throught the tub, work in conjuction with the O3 system and keep the water from stagnating, but not filtering.  

??

Your are right I do not like the circ pump but it was out of context for the topic. For the purpose of heat and ozone that is acceptable, but I do not know of a manufacturer that uses them for that purpose only, they are always tied to at least one filter.

Take the filter away from them and they would make sense.

Not one service that's reads this board can dispute the circ pump have a high failure rate and it is not the pumps fault but usually debris getting in them.


I guess I should not complain, they make me a lot of money.

[drewstar]

Your are right I do not light the circ pump but it was out of context for the topic. For the purpose of heat and ozone that is acceptable, but I do not know of a manufacturer that uses them for that purpose only, they are always tied to at least one filter.

Take the filter away from them and they would make sense.

Not one service that's reads this board can dispute the circ pump have a high failure rate and it is not the pumps fault but usually debris getting in them.


I guess I should not complain, they make me a lot of money.

Gary  I have never heard of a circ pump being used to Filter. Always for ...well circulation.
   Am I missing something?     If a tub, like HS that has 100 no baypass then there is some filtration, but on other tubs, there just isn't the volume to achieve any substantial filtration, or am I all wet here?

[SerjicalStrike]

On a Sundance 880, the circulation pump is the filtration pump.  There are no bypasses on it.  So far, at least at our shop, there have been no failures of the new circulation pump.