Ph and Ta

[CapMorgan]

Hello all,

I been having a problem with my PH and TA it is always high my water is 2 months old and when ever i balance my water the next day the numbers are high again.

When i balance the water
PH 7.2
TA 100

Because i have a problem with my water just to check to see what is going on the next day my numbers are high again

PH 8.0 or higher
TA 120

I am not trying to micro manage my water but i really feel my numbers should not get that high in 1 day and the odd thing is when my tub was brand new and on my first water fill my PH and TA would always go lower in a week's time since i drained my tub and added new water the water is doing the opposite.

I have been having a problem with my skin with rashes and itching a lot and i really feel that it is because i always have a High PH level can anyone help in why my PH would rise so fast in 24 hours.

CapMorgan  

[Reese]

You can get false readings if you test the water in the first few hours after adjusting pH/TA as it takes awhile for the acid to inteact fully with the carbonates.  The result you get the next day is the true reading, so I'm guessing you haven't added enough acid yet.  It can take a lot of acid to get pH down -- my high pH/high TA fills take over 24 oz of dry acid to balance the water.  You just have to keep adding acid until you overcome the alkalinity and get the pH to stay in range.  Then if the pH becomes volatile, you can work on increasing alkalinity, otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.  If you have any hardness in the water, you may want to consider a stain/scale product to protect the heater and tub surface until you get the tub balanced.

The high pH may be affecting your sanitizer's effectiveness.  Dichlor is especially sensitive to high pH.  This and/or the caustic effect of high PH is probably the cause of your skin irritation.

[neocacher]

Funny this topic should come up, as I was going to start a new post.

I, also , can not drop my pH below 7.9 no matter what I do.  If I add acid, all that drops is the alkalinity, the pH doesn't move a bit.

My reading yesterday alk. 150,  pH 7.9.  I added 2 tablespoons of pH decrease and got the following readings today.  alkalinity 82.  pH 7.9

My dealer says quit worrying about it, that the pH is impossible to drop in this town.  Now I know nothing is impossible. LOL.

So what do i do?  add 1/2 pound of pH decreaser? then worry about the alkalinity?

Everywhere I have read, says do the alkalinity, then do pH. That doesnt work for me.

Neo

[hot tub Frank]

that is funny i always have to add in order to get a reading

[Vinny]

You need to get the alkalinity to a point where the PH will drop. The alkalinity is doing it's job ... locking the pH into place.

I always tell people worry about their PH and only worry about alkalinity only if you see the PH bouncing all over the place.

[tony]

In my tub, when the TA gets to 100 or above, my pH starts rising.  I keep my TA at about 80 and my pH rarely moves.  It may just be my water, but that has been my experience.  There have been other posts that are similar to yours...high TA...high pH.  Try bringing your TA to the low end of normal and see what it does.

[neocacher]

Ok. My ALK is about 80.  My pH is 7.9.  I just added 1 1/ oz. of acid  again, and I will wait see what happens.

Neo

[neocacher]

Well I finally got the pH to drop. I added about 4 more oz. of pH decreaser.  Once the alkalinity got to about 30, the pH starting to plunge quickly.  I think it got to about 6.8 for a few minutes, then I brought it back with alk Increaser . I think it is about 7.4 now, and will test again in morning.  That will be the real test ; to see if it bounces back.  At least I know what ORANGE looks like on a test strip now!  

It is amazing to me how low you have to get the alk. before the pH will drop;, at least with my water.  All the books say to balance the alk first to 100-125, but that doenst work for me.  The water was too stable.

Thanks for the advice.

Neo

[tony]

CapMorgan

I saw your post on another forum regarding this matter.  The person who replied recommended against what every tub manufacturer instructs to do...that is to use dichlor form of chlorine.  As a matter of fact, his instruction to use bleach is in opposition to just about every manufacturer and my void warranties.  Now I am a believer in using bleach or liquid chlorine...I use it in my pool...but in the small volume of a spa it does not make sense.  The pH is just too high and the problem with handling bleach is a problem...one slip and you could have irrepairable damage.  The fear of high CYA has been well documented here and on other forums...I myself check levels periodically, but the fact that you change water on a regular basis really negates any of the problems presented.  Although he discredits Vermonter's method, Vermonter's credentials are substantial and his opinions are backed with solid experience and testing.  I have watched Vermonters posts intently for years now and have the highest regard for him.

I post this here because I was concerned about the advise and just wanted to present my two cents without having to battle.  You can take it for what its worth.

tony  

[Vinny]

CapMorgan

I saw your post on another forum regarding this matter.  The person who replied recommended against what every tub manufacturer instructs to do...that is to use dichlor form of chlorine.  As a matter of fact, his instruction to use bleach is in opposition to just about every manufacturer and my void warranties.  Now I am a believer in using bleach or liquid chlorine...I use it in my pool...but in the small volume of a spa it does not make sense.  The pH is just too high and the problem with handling bleach is a problem...one slip and you could have irrepairable damage.  The fear of high CYA has been well documented here and on other forums...I myself check levels periodically, but the fact that you change water on a regular basis really negates any of the problems presented.  Although he discredits Vermonter's method, Vermonter's credentials are substantial and his opinions are backed with solid experience and testing.  I have watched Vermonters posts intently for years now and have the highest regard for him.

I post this here because I was concerned about the advise and just wanted to present my two cents without having to battle.  You can take it for what its worth.

tony  

I didn't read the other forum's post but I agree with tony 110% - the use of dichlor or lithium chlorine in a tub is the way to go. The amounts we use, 1 teaspoon to 3 tablespoons, are so little and effective that using any other forms of chlorine shouldn't be considered.

I too use bleach in my above ground pool and have added gallons at a time to fight off algea. Also as tony said, you are fighting high PH and bleach has a PH of 13 ... If you want to throw something in to oxidize then throw unbuffered MPS which has a PH of 4.

Keep folowing the advice here and your PH and alkalinity will come down.

[CapMorgan]

Tony & Vinny

I appericate your advice I am new here only had my tub since march of 2006 and since i did my refill i been having nothing but problems with my Ph and TA and i have been suffering from what is the so called hot tub itch. On the other forum the reason why he says to use bleach is because dichlor adds to CYA and once CYA gets to high then chlorine does not work then you will get bacteria then the hot tub itch.
He says that once CYA gets over 20 ppm then chlorine is useless so this morning i checked my CYA level and it is 100 ppm. My water is only 2  months old and my cya is through the roof im really confused now and i have not been in my tub in over a 2 weeks now as every time i use it i itch like crazy i just  need to find a solution to my problem so i can start to enjoy my tub again.

CapMorgan <---- at a lost  

[Vinny]

First of all that other poster is FULL OF DO-DO!! 20 PPM is really low ... 100PPM is at the high range. Depending on the usage we all will have 100 PPM cya in a couple of months - how much have you used the tub and how many people?

Itching & hot water can go together. Add chlorine and you can have even dryer skin. These irritate some people and don't irritate others. Have you neglected the tub chemical wise and need to hit it with high levels of chlorine (50+ PPM)?

The other thing you can do is partially drain and refill the tub to lower the cya.

[Reese]

I agree with Tony and Vinny (as I usually do).  It sounds as though you are getting some bad advice on the other forum.  I think your problems stem from not getting the pH down.  As I said before, chlorine is not very effective at high pH.  If you have been trying to get by with the small dichlor doses that are often discussed on this and other forums, while running pH over 7.5, it is very possible that you have not had enough sanitizer in killing form in your tub.

You need to keep hitting the tub with acid to get the pH down, and you should consider a super-sanitization to make sure your problems are not related to bacteria growth.  Until you get the pH down, you should use larger chlorine doses than normal

[CapMorgan]

I am the only person who use's the tub and i take a bath before i take a soak 99% of the time. I use the tub daily for about 45 min to 1 hour. (until 2 weeks ago

I dont think i have neglected the tub i have a 360 gallon tub and i add 3/4 tsp of dichlor after each use and i shock weekly with 5 1/4 tsp and balance the PH and TA. My water is clear like it was new and it has no odors.

Do you really think i need to hit it with a 50 ppm of chlorine?

After each soak i put on lotion to keep my skin from drying out.

I have been adding 8 ounches of PH down, my TA will goto 100 and my Ph will goto 7.2 then the next day i check it and my TA will be back to 120 and my PH will be 8.0 or higher i have been doing this for 4 days and every day the same thing happens.

What is an acceptable level of CYA?

CapMorgan

[neocacher]

As I said , i am having same problem.  My last post said i was down, and now, 4 hours later, my pH is back up to 7.9 and alk is back to 100.

Maybe we will have to do this several more times. I am stumped as well.  My water is only 2 weeks old.

Neo