Chems-TA &ph dropped suddenly~thinking out loud...

[kervis]

Well, I knew it would happen, but not this drastically.  

At fill-up:  TA=200 and ph was over 8.  I added the spa down, a bit one week, then more a week later.  TA dropped to 150, then to 125 and it had been holding steady for 2 weeks or so.  It was at 100 on the 15th and down to 50   today.  What's up with that?  :-?

My ph was consistantly high, around 8 .  On the 15th, it was at 7.7, then today down to 7.0.

So....I added 5oz of Spa up and will see how it reads in the morning.  I am a dichlor/N2/mps user for the winter and so far, so good!

Now, if history repeats itself, I will struggle to keep the ph above 7.  Last time though, I used only Spa up, not the ph increaser.  Last time my TA took 3 months to drop to only 100.  

I don't know what's going on, but I am taking careful notes.  I figure that NEXT water change, I'm just going to have super high ph for 3 weeks and make sure I use Defender.  I find it odd that the water can change so drastically.  Because of this, I guess I don't see the need to add a bunch of Spa Down at fill up.   I'll just ride it out....

I suppose the drop was so drastic due to the MPS?

Just when I think I've got it all figured out...

Thanks--I guess I am just expressing my frustrations and thinking out loud here.

[tileman]

What kind of mps are you using? Only unbuffered mps would cause a drop like that.

I would suggest next fill getting levels in range during the first couple of days instead of spaning it out two weeks.
Also, with your tap water levels I would have done a partial water change as that would have brought them back up w/o adding anymore chems.

Just a little FYI for next time.

[kervis]

I am using SeaKlear MPS, and I do not think it is buffered.
  
One reason I thought I'd try it this winter was so that I could shock and  not wait for days to use the spa again.  I also figured that it was a smart purchase since I only had to use 2 oz. at a time.

At this rate, I would be doing a partial change every month--is that normal?  I will be dreading this winter...

And, if my water is going to change like it did, really, why bother adding all of the "down" chems getting it into range within a week, when 3 weeks later, I am then adding a ton of "up" chems?  :-/ :-/

Thanks, tileman.  

[tileman]

  Sea Klear is definetly an unbuffered mps and is the reason for your drastic drop. I believe it's ph is around 3ppm.
  I would switch to a buffered (ph nuetral) one such as Renew from Leisure Time. It's recommended dose is 2 oz per 250 gallons and allows you to soak just few hours after adding. Some even say 30 minutes. It will not effect any readings besides CC.
  It's definetly the way to go IMO as I like to keep my levels as consistant as possible.
Once you get ph and alk in range I'd make the switch.

[anne]

Well, I knew it would happen, but not this drastically.  

At fill-up:  TA=200 and ph was over 8.  I added the spa down, a bit one week, then more a week later.  TA dropped to 150, then to 125 and it had been holding steady for 2 weeks or so.  It was at 100 on the 15th and down to 50   today.  What's up with that?  :-?

My ph was consistantly high, around 8 .  On the 15th, it was at 7.7, then today down to 7.0.

So....I added 5oz of Spa up and will see how it reads in the morning.  I am a dichlor/N2/mps user for the winter and so far, so good!

Now, if history repeats itself, I will struggle to keep the ph above 7.  Last time though, I used only Spa up, not the ph increaser.  Last time my TA took 3 months to drop to only 100.  

I don't know what's going on, but I am taking careful notes.  I figure that NEXT water change, I'm just going to have super high ph for 3 weeks and make sure I use Defender.  I find it odd that the water can change so drastically.  Because of this, I guess I don't see the need to add a bunch of Spa Down at fill up.   I'll just ride it out....

I suppose the drop was so drastic due to the MPS?

Just when I think I've got it all figured out...

Thanks--I guess I am just expressing my frustrations and thinking out loud here.

It is SOOOOOOO easy to overdue it in the beginning. I would not recommend running out and buying a different MPS yet. It seems that there are a lot of factors that make our water harder to control at first, so I'd see how it goes for a bit before you give up and buy more stuff. Perhaps you were shocking more often then needed? I'm not experienced enough to really explain what happened, or give very solid advice, but I can tell you that the first time I filled my tub, I had almost EXACTLY the same pattern as you- really high pH, had to fight to get it down, then it was perfect for a short time, then kept having to fight to get it to stay up. Second tub of water: I adjusted things a bit more gradually, using the same chems as the first time around, and for whatever reason, it has not been that bad ever since. I'd ride it out. And no, you should not have to do partial water dumps unless you have excessive calcium or TDS or other stuff in your water that has to be diluted.
It'll get easier!!!!!

[tileman]

Anne I'm curious as to why you advice her to continue using a mps that drastically lowers ph and has to be buffered anyways using a ph up product. Adding one chem is certainly easier than adding two. Why fight to get ph up after every shock?

[Vinny]

Using a product with a low PH will drop your PH and alkalinity.

What you've witnessed is what will happen ... PH lowers gradually while alkalinity decreases, sometimes PH will stay the same while alkalinity decreases then  you get to a level and it drops drastically.

Measure your PH and alkalinity and try baking soda to get them back up. Baking soda works great for me - it raises the PH and alkalinity together to the proper levels.

tileman, using buffered MPS has 2 affects - could add quickly to TDS and has less O2 for oxidation. I too prefer unbuffered MPS, I have used Sea Klear in the past but found an old bucket of MPS in the garage and it's also unbuffered MPS.

[tileman]

Here's what Northman says about mps shocking.
"At night after spa use for your weekly shock add 2 Tablespoons of Dichlor and 2-3 Tablespoons of MPS (non chlorine shock) as a shock and 1.5-2 Tablespoons of Alkalinity increaser to buffer the MPS. (Please note that there are basically two types of MPS on the Market one is from Leisure Time and is called Renew that doesn’t require an Alkalinity increaser to buffer it since that is already buffered. The bad news is that has lower active oxygen content at about 3.4 and will require 2-3 times the recommended dosage. The straight maximum strength MPS from Dupont sold under various other names such as Sea-Klear Chlorine-Free Shock has an active oxygen content of 4.3-4.75 and is what I normally use since it requires less.)"

Vinny,
My tub is 336 gallons.
I use just under 3oz(5 TBSP) of Renew to get a shock treatment according to Liesure Time.
If he's adding 2-3 TBSP of seaklear and 1.5-2 TBSP of alk up, how am I adding to the TDS faster than him. I'm not trying to argue w/ anyone, I'd just need someone to explain this to me. I want to do what ever is best for my tub.

Thanks,
Chad

[Vinny]

OK, Now your becoming a PITA!!! JUST KIDDING!!!!

I don't follow Northman's routine but I have read it. Northman's and Vermonter's routines are similar but I use a modified version of both.

You are absolutely correct in your assumption - the TDS will go up quickly on both.

My shocking routine is to use about 2 oz MPS or raise my chlorine level to 6 PPM (usually my CC is about 0.5 PPM) and every so often if I haven't added chlorine for a while use MPS as a shock and add 3 PPM chlorine to chlorinate 20 minutes later.

As an example - Sea Klear's dose to shock is 1 oz per 250 gallons, so at about 2 oz (1/4 cup) I have used enough MPS to shock the tub.

As far as the PH in my tub, I will wait until it's about 7.2 (if I'm lucky to catch it there) or has gone below 7.2 (usually) and use about 2 oz or so of baking soda to raise the PH to 7.8 and start the cycle again. This cycle is about 3 to 4 weeks but I don't use the tub every day as you and others do.

[anne]

Anne I'm curious as to why you advice her to continue using a mps that drastically lowers ph and has to be buffered anyways using a ph up product. Adding one chem is certainly easier than adding two. Why fight to get ph up after every shock?

 It was not so much that I was suggesting the value of unbuffered MPS is better than buffered. I have heard the pros and cons of each, and when I got my tub there were a lot of good comments about sea clear unbuffered here, so I went with that. I was just thinking that before going out and spending more $$ on another bottle of chemical that then takes up space somewhere, she could probably make work what she has. I had the same issues she is describing, and I think I ended up being ok because I went from weekly to every other week shocking. I also take advantage of MPS's acidity: if my tub's pH is lowish to ok, I add a little baking soda with the shock dose of MPS, but if the pH is highish, I just add the MPS alone, and the MPS does both jobs for me.

[tileman]

It just seems to me like one more thing to worry about (how low is it going to go this time?) and alot of unneccessary work. Just IMO of course.  

I want to know what kervis thinks would be easier to start out with.

[tony]

I originally used Renew which is buffered and in the last couple of years have been using an unbuffered no name non chlorine shock.  I switched because I use less than half the product per shock.  Unbuffered non chlorine shock should not cause your pH to drop drastically.  I generally do not have to add pH up when shocking.  My pH gradually drops over weeks.  I believe your pH swings are caused by something else.

[tileman]

I believe he put it best.

Using a product with a low PH will drop your PH and alkalinity.

What you've witnessed is what will happen ... PH lowers gradually while alkalinity decreases, sometimes PH will stay the same while alkalinity decreases then  you get to a level and it drops drastically.

[kervis]

To top everything off, I had MAJOR UNCLEAN relatives in the spa yesterday.  The kids had a blast but it took me and the tub, over an hour to recover.    Yikes.  I was ?pleased? to be able to send home my niece and nephew all squeeky and deep cleaned.

The 5oz of spa up (baking soda) was right on.  My ph is now at 7.6 and my TA is back up to 210.

1.  Anne mentioned that perhaps I was shocking too much--yes, I believe that to be true.  I avoid math.  I just shocked with 2 oz. every week just because.  I did test for CC, just never did the math to see if I really needed to shock.  I looked at the calendar, saw that it had been a week, then threw in 2 oz.  

2.  I had heard a lot of great things about the SeaKlear--I bought it on purpose to use for winter shocking as well as hoping for the ph and TA to drop.  I just did not expect the drop to be so drastic all at once.  

3.  I will ride this unbuffered MPS experiment out and see how it goes.  I pledge to do the actual math from here on forward,  to see if indeed I NEED to shock.  I think this would be a good thing for me to do!

4.  The N2 and MPS are an experiment for me, but when I got my spa in July, the same thing happened and I was NOT using MPS or N2---just dichlor.  Pretty much after exactly 3 weeks the ph plummeted from 8+ down to 7 with no warning.  At my first fill, I had to add almost a whole bottle of spa down to get my Ph and TA  within range.  My ph remained high.  Then the ph dropped to 7 or below but the TA was never below 75.  My average TA was 110.
Tony--what could be the "something else" that is causing this big drop?  I am thinking along Vinny's line of reasoning that everyone's water acts differently and mine just decides to freak after the first 3 weeks!  That's gotta be it, but then, am I overmanaging with extra chems to first drop ph, then spend 3 months trying to increase it?  At least Baking soda isn't bad for you! I'd rather not be adding anything and let it come down on its own for those first 3 weeks.  How much damage will that do?

I'll continue to take good notes and see what type of baking soda doses I am needing to add.  Than I'll do what Anne does and just add some with each MPS dose.

Thanks, you guys.  This has been very helpful!  

[anne]

To top everything off, I had MAJOR UNCLEAN relatives in the spa yesterday.  The kids had a blast but it took me and the tub, over an hour to recover.    Yikes.  I was ?pleased? to be able to send home my niece and nephew all squeeky and deep cleaned.

The 5oz of spa up (baking soda) was right on.  My ph is now at 7.6 and my TA is back up to 210.

1.  Anne mentioned that perhaps I was shocking too much--yes, I believe that to be true.  I avoid math.  I just shocked with 2 oz. every week just because.  I did test for CC, just never did the math to see if I really needed to shock.  I looked at the calendar, saw that it had been a week, then threw in 2 oz.  

2.  I had heard a lot of great things about the SeaKlear--I bought it on purpose to use for winter shocking as well as hoping for the ph and TA to drop.  I just did not expect the drop to be so drastic all at once.  

3.  I will ride this unbuffered MPS experiment out and see how it goes.  I pledge to do the actual math from here on forward,  to see if indeed I NEED to shock.  I think this would be a good thing for me to do!

4.  The N2 and MPS are an experiment for me, but when I got my spa in July, the same thing happened and I was NOT using MPS or N2---just dichlor.  Pretty much after exactly 3 weeks the ph plummeted from 8+ down to 7 with no warning.  At my first fill, I had to add almost a whole bottle of spa down to get my Ph and TA  within range.  My ph remained high.  Then the ph dropped to 7 or below but the TA was never below 75.  My average TA was 110.
Tony--what could be the "something else" that is causing this big drop?  I am thinking along Vinny's line of reasoning that everyone's water acts differently and mine just decides to freak after the first 3 weeks!  That's gotta be it, but then, am I overmanaging with extra chems to first drop ph, then spend 3 months trying to increase it?  At least Baking soda isn't bad for you! I'd rather not be adding anything and let it come down on its own for those first 3 weeks.  How much damage will that do?

I'll continue to take good notes and see what type of baking soda doses I am needing to add.  Than I'll do what Anne does and just add some with each MPS dose.

Thanks, you guys.  This has been very helpful!  

I dont know that you have to do the math for every shocking, but it is better to use less stuff if you can, so if you have no CC in your tub, why shock? It is so true that after a while you start to get the "feel" for this. I'm less than a year into this, but I will say I'm a lot more comfortable anticipating what is going to happen with my water than I was in the beginning. There are small things that will influence how closely I obey the rules: if my pH has been spot-on for weeks, and I get one high or low reading, sometimes I lave it alone and check it the next day before I jump to add anything. If my usage is low, I have gone three weeks between shocks with no ill effects. If it is getting close to shocking time and the water has that TINY hint of starting to cloud up (no real cloudiness, but sort of a different way that it feels and the water reflects light differently)  then I shock with dichlor rather than MPS.

Perhaps it is my own version of voodoo.......