HS Moto Massage Leak

[lawdawgva]

I had an unexpected half day off yesterday and the weather here in VA is beautiful so I picked up the new bleed nipple, drilled out the old one and glued the new one in.  I am leaving to go out of town to the Seafood Festival in Morehead NC tonight so I wont be able to refill the tub till first of next week.  That should defeinately let it cure well.

Out of curiosity, can anyone tell me what this bleed line does for the moto massge??  I mean I know what a "bleed line" is but what the heck is it bleeding and why is it necesesary on my tub?  From what I hear, there are  a lot of problems with leaks from this part.  I've found info on many websites about it.  Has HS remedied this in the years since?  Inquiring minds want to know!

-Law Dawg

[lawdawgva]

Back from my long weekend.....cleaned and filled the tub this morning.  No leaks at the bleed nipple repair.  I broke a few more boards as I had to remove several more around the leak in order to get all of the wet foam insulation out.  It was starting to smell bad in there.  I will have to figure out if I can fix all these puzzle pieces of skirting or try to buy some new boards.  I'm going to leave it open for a few days to make sure the repair held.

-Law Dawg

[wesj53]

At the great risk of being severly criticized for the following, let me first state that I am NOT rubbing salt in the wound of lawdawgva for his leakage problem. Rather, I am asking prospective buyers to seriously consider the problems associated with FF units if a leak does develop past the warranty period. I understand the unit is 10 years old, but I still would not want to deal with the mess that this owner is going thru. When I have mentioned this potential problem on this site before, I was criticized by FF dealers for overblowing this possibility. Well, as I said before, if there is one thing almost everyone agrees with, it's that sooner or later, spas leak. Which would you rather fix, a fully foamed or an open chamber style?

[lawdawgva]

No offense taken wesj53.

Let me preface this post by saying that I still love my HS Sovreign and if I were looking to buy a new tub tomorrow, HS would definately be on my list of spas to test.  To be 10 yrs old and have only needed this one leak repair which cost me a grand total of $5 so far (not counting any replacement skirting boards I might need to buy) is a pretty good track record.

Having said that, this repair HAS made me stop and think about the drawbacks of repairing a FF tub leak.  This was a relatively small leak, a crack where the nipple attaches to the tub.  Because of the small amount of water and the foam I did not notice the leak until it had gone through all of the softter foam insulation and began leaking out around the skirting. ( I had attributed the small water loss to evap.)  Since it had been leaking by my estimate for about 2 months, it had absolutely soaked the soft foam insulation for several feet on each side of the leak and had even wicked upward to the top of the tub.

It was not a pleasant experience digging through all that foam.  Everyone says do not use "tools" to remove it for fear of puncturing a hose, fitting, etc.  I dont know about anyone else, but I could not remove the hard foam insulation without a putty knife, screwdriver and a claw hammer (no lie).  Fortunately I went about it slowly and did not damage anything else.  I filled up a 55 gal trashbag with foam from this repair.  The foam also posed a problem of hiding the leak.  Had I not read on this board that the moto massage area was norotious for leaks, I have started digging on the other end of the tub because foam was wet on the opposite end also and leaking from underneath the skirting.

I am not educated enough to get into the debate of whether FF or TP is more efficient, sturdier, better, etc.  but I will say that this repair (and any other) would have been much much easier had #1. I not had to dig through all that blasted foam  and while we are at it #2. The side panels were attached in such a way that they are easier to remove without ruining them.  i.e. in large "area panels" attached with screws.  Say, take out 6 screws or so and a large side section comes off.  On this repair I'm very tempted to stuff some loose insulation in there, staple some of the foil bubble insulation between the frame and put my boards back on.  As you can imagine, I"m very leary of foaming this end up and risk having to dig back into it in the future.  Ugh!

Just my thoughts and musings for this morning.

-Law Dawg

[Altazi]

I am glad to hear you are nearing the finish line on this project, Lawdawgva.  I have been watching this thread with a great deal of interest.  You said you'd spent $5 on materials - how much is your time worth?  Or are you looking at this as some kind of hobby?

I'd like to hear from some professional spa repair techs on this.  Would you all be doing the same things that Lawdawgva has done?  How long would a job like this take, and how much would the repair cost?  Is the foam in this tub used to provide support for the shell?  If so, is the spa just as structurally sound after the repair?  Is this an unusually nasty repair, or are there worse?  What do you suppose caused this problem?

Regards,

Altazi

[Chas]

I'd like to hear from some professional spa repair techs on this.  Would you all be doing the same things that Lawdawgva has done?Yes, pretty much.  
How long would a job like this take, and how much would the repair cost?That's a very hard one to answer. With experience, a good tech can usually find a leak much faster than an amateur. Yes, the bleed nipples cracked near the MotoMassage housing a lot, so that is the first place I would have checked - I would have done so by driving a small hole into the foam in that area and then filling and operating the spa elevated on blocks. That way, in about an hour, I can get a pretty good idea if the nipple is to blame or not. From there, another hour will have the spa emptied and the foam removed. The actual repair can take minutes once the foam is out of the way. Newer HotSpring tubs have removable side panels. I would then do exactly what Law Dog has done: let it set overnight, fill and run to observe if the leak if fixed. Then I would dig out all wet foam and replace with new foam. That is the expensive part, BTW.  Is the foam in this tub used to provide support for the shell?  If so, is the spa just as structurally sound after the repair? Yes, the area around the MotoMassage is pretty strong for two reasons: it is near the top of the tub which is thicker material, and it has the MotoMassage housing bonded to the shell which acts to strengthen that area of the shell. Is this an unusually nasty repair, or are there worse?I think that the four Precision Jets above the Moto Massage unit are harder to repair because they are somewhat harder to get to.  What do you suppose caused this problem?As the foam expands on the production line, it can sometimes impart a bit of preload to the tubing in this area. It is a hard space to foam correctly, so they have modified the way it is done to get rid of this problem. They also beefed up the little nipples to allow them to handle side-stress if it is present. The nipples are there for two reasons: one is to drain the water out of the area for folks who winterize their spa, and the other is to have a smal flow of water from the circ pump through the cavity behind the MotoMassage jet to keep the water fresh and hot in that cavity.

[lawdawgva]

Altazi,

I definately dont work on hottubs as a hobby....thats what Guns are for!!  Anyways, I am guessing I spent 3 hours digging for, finding and fixing the leak, not counting the time to reinsulate and purchase and replace skirting (yet to be done).  Granted  I am not a professional and had never done this before, so I'm sure some of that time was spent scratching my head and drinking beer.    I'm a fairly handy guy, so what "scared" me into doing this was the fact that my dealer said  there was an $85 service call and I think $65 per hour after that.  She also said sometimes they had to bring the tub into the shop which would be an extra fee.  I'm not poor but I started seeing my mad money fund dwindling before my eyes when she told me that.  I'm not sorry I did the repair myself, but it was not something I'd want to get into again.

-Law Dawg

[imp etc]

Hi All,

I am having nasty flashbacks to this past spring when I was trying to resurrect the old Sundance we had. As it turned out, there were multiple leaks, the worst of which was in a place we would have been unable to see, much less reach, much less fix on our own. Finally saw where the big leak was when the tub was cut up into chunks and loaded onto a pickup for disposal.

Since the tub was very old, I had an independent tech out to look at it, and he basically said he would not do the job at any price. As a DIY project, I'd probably still be working on it lo these many moons later.

I wish I had taken pix of the tub with the skirting removed. It looked like one of Term's nightmare tubs, with the added enticement of a very mature colony of spiders and cobwebs. As far as I could tell, it was nowhere near fully-foamed, and even so, a human being would have had to become a pretzel to get all the way in there and do the job. Seriously, it looked like Mordor in there.

Anyhow, don't know what this adds to the discussion, except  lawdawgva, I feel your pain, and I wish you many happy soaks for all your effort!  

[lawdawgva]

UPDATE.....Leak is fixed!  Went better than I expected.  I didn't relish the thought of payin g for replacement slats for the ones I broke on the skirting, so I pulled out my trusty hot glue gun and put all the  slats together like a jig saw puzzle, gluing as I went along.  After a new coat of stain next year, I don't think it will be noticable at all as it barely is now.   So, I guess I learned a little something by doing this repair myself and saved a few bucks I'm sure.  I do know that the other night when I got into the water for the first time since the repair, it felt even better than I can ever remember.

-LawDawg

[Chas]

Hear ye, Hear ye!

Be it known that from this day forward in perpetuity that

[glow]LAW DAWG[/glow]

is hereby inducted into the sacred halls of the rare and most official

Order of the Foam Diggers

And is hereby afforded all the rights and privelages accorded to any and all

Spa Repairmen, protectors of Spatopia.

Further, once the skin grows back on his knuckles and the wrinkles subside on his pruny fingers,

and once the rust has been scraped from his mighty digging tools of choice,

including but not limited to his

[size=12]Claw Hammer[/size][/i]

he is hereby allowed one extra

Heartfelt Sigh of Satisfaction

upon entering, and relaxing in, his now-watertight spa.

Be it known to all.[/font]

Signed this 25th day of the month of October, 2006
Chas - lord of the Foam.

[In Canada eh]

The nipples are there for two reasons: one is to drain the water out of the area for folks who winterize their spa, and the other is to have a smal flow of water from the circ pump through the cavity behind the MotoMassage jet to keep the water fresh and hot in that cavity.[/b]

[/quote]


        HMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

Dosen't this sound like the same thing that people claim is a problem with Bullfrog.   Does Hot Springs have a problem with the water in this cavity going skunky.  Just kidding   Chas, sorry to use your post to make a point.

[IDW]

At the great risk of being severly criticized for the following, let me first state that I am NOT rubbing salt in the wound of lawdawgva for his leakage problem. Rather, I am asking prospective buyers to seriously consider the problems associated with FF units if a leak does develop past the warranty period. I understand the unit is 10 years old, but I still would not want to deal with the mess that this owner is going thru. When I have mentioned this potential problem on this site before, I was criticized by FF dealers for overblowing this possibility. Well, as I said before, if there is one thing almost everyone agrees with, it's that sooner or later, spas leak. Which would you rather fix, a fully foamed or an open chamber style?

I sell full foam spas made by Pacific Spas in Canada. They use a foam called Icylene that does not absord water. If a spa leaks the water follows gravity and I can use a ohm meter to find the leak. The foam comes out easy and is not like glue. The company that makes Icylene supplies me with the insulation to replace the patch.

Packing Foam which is way cheaper is a really bad idea.
So when you ask  prospective buyers to seriously consider the problems associated with FF units did you even know the differences in foams.

[Spatech_tuo]

       HMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

Dosen't this sound like the same thing that people claim is a problem with Bullfrog.   Does Hot Springs have a problem with the water in this cavity going skunky.  Just kidding   Chas, sorry to use your post to make a point.

They probably would if they didn't have the nipple there. It seems that Bullfrog may have had the problem there in the beginning (I'm not a Bullfrog historian but that's what I surmise) and have since added the flow to resolve it but once you have an issue sometimes others like to remind people as if it's current.

[lawdawgva]

Chas,

I just wanted you to know that I printed out your proclamation and it is hanging on my bulletin board, proudly displayed for all to see!  One question.....can I also have a spa babe come over and pat me on the head while we are soaking and having and adult beverage and say "what a good boy you are!"

-Law Dawg

[drewstar]

One question.....can I also have a spa babe come over and pat me on the head while we are soaking and having and adult beverage and say "what a good boy you are!"

-Law Dawg

I'm in charge of the that Department.  

Sure, no problem. This is a "full service forum".

We can send down one of our Member Appreciation  models.

She charges There is a  donation of $175 an hour. And Yup, She'll call you a good boy.

Oh,  FWIW,  for a  $200 "donation", she'll say "What a bad boy you are"  


If  those prices are too much, we can offer Luralean, she'll come by and tell you what great job you did for $6.50.
(bus fare)



I know, I know...I'm getting banned.