Luv, luv, luv my sundance

[dsegel]

Hi all,

Haven't participated in some time now.  My summer into fall have been crazy.  

Just wanted to share my experience with my "new" tub.  Installed a Sundance Majesta with CD Ozonator (using a SunPurity Sanitizer) on 6/2/06.  After the first month I settled into putting a teaspoon of MSP after each use, substitute that with 1 tsp. Dichlor mid-week and a shock of 3 Tbl. Dichlor once a week.  My water is almost always crystal clear.  On a scale of 0 to 10 where 10 is crystal clear and 0 is pond water, it occasionally goes to a 9 the day before the shock.  I rarely test the water (why mess with a good thing?).  And sorry, but Chas' Law didn't happen for me--four months and haven't had to drain yet!  

I'm sure there are other brands out there just as good (or better  ) but I just wanted to give my review in case we have any newbies looking for some direction.  I never dreamed having a hot tub was going to be this easy and we haven't lost our enthusiasm for it one bit--we're in it almost every night.

Hooray for Sundance!!!  

[kervis]

Wahoo!!


I want to figure out the MPS/Dichlor routine.  So far, I've just used Dichlor and it has worked well.  I got my spa in July, and like you, have not needed a water change either.  8-)  What a great forum this has been.

I want to do it in early November so that I can make it through the winter and I will need to read up on the method.  I have had the experience of having to wait to use the tub due to the high chlorine level.  It was pretty easy when it was 80 degrees out, but I don't want to wait this winter, thus I must figure out the MPS!

I'm glad you love your tub--I love my tub too!  

[hymbaw]

 I rarely test the water (why mess with a good thing?).    

I'm glad you're having a great time with your Sundance, but please test your water! The pH is vital in making your dichlor effective and also in the longevity of your tub.

[dsegel]

I want to figure out the MPS/Dichlor routine.  ...  I have had the experience of having to wait to use the tub due to the high chlorine level.  

Not sure about your brand but my tub uses CD Ozonator and SunPurity Mineral Sanitizer, thus I can use mostly MPS.  As stated, I use 1 tsp. MPS after each use.  One night "about" mid-week, I substitute the 1 tsp. MPS with 1 tsp. Dichlor.  IN ADDITION, once a week I "shock" with 3 Tablespoons Dichlor.  I do this early in the morning and usually by our nighttime soak, there is little chlorine evident.

I'm going to try to hold out until late November/early December to drain mine.  I'll have to change my Micro-filter early December so trying for then.  Sure don't want to mess with it in Jan/Feb with freezing weather!!!

[dsegel]

I'm glad you're having a great time with your Sundance, but please test your water! The pH is vital in making your dichlor effective and also in the longevity of your tub.

Well, I DO test it but only about every week or 2.  Should I be testing more often?  Usually there's not much to do.  The last few times pH has been slightly low.  Usually 8 oz. or so of ph Up does it.

However, wouldn't the water quality be bad if things were out of kilter?

[TrikkeAddict]

That's a lot of pH up!!!!   When my pH is low it takes ONE oz. to bring it up to normal range.

When talking about MPS versus dichlor keep in mind that you need something like 9 times as much MPS to equal 1 part dichlor.  When I read that you shock with 3 tbls of dichlor and it's gone very quickly, that tells me that there's a lot of stuff in your tub for the dichlor to be used that fast.  If I use just 2 tbls of dichlor in my tub to shock there will be at least 3 ppm left the next day.  

Just thinking out loud.

Susan

[dsegel]

That's a lot of pH up!!!!   When my pH is low it takes ONE oz. to bring it up to normal range.

When talking about MPS versus dichlor keep in mind that you need something like 9 times as much MPS to equal 1 part dichlor.  When I read that you shock with 3 tbls of dichlor and it's gone very quickly, that tells me that there's a lot of stuff in your tub for the dichlor to be used that fast.  If I use just 2 tbls of dichlor in my tub to shock there will be at least 3 ppm left the next day.  

Just thinking out loud.

Susan

Wow, it takes 1 oz./100 gallons of pH Up to bring mine up .1 (according to directions)!!!  What brand do you use?

I probably mis-spoke on the dichlor "being gone".  I'm sure if I tested it would be there.  What I REALLY meant   was there was not noticeable smell or feeling such that we didn't feel like being in the tub.

[svspa]

dsegel,

great to hear you are enjoying your tub. got my jacuzzi 1 year ago and happy to be a member of the sundance/jacuzzi family.

so i just wanted to share with you some of what i have learned from the experts here and at rhtubs, especially because i have seen a few people lately saying they are using this daily MPS routine.

i am not sure why the daily MPS routine is promoted these days. it doesn't seem like there is any evidence to support the premise that ozone and N2 alone can eliminate your need for a daily sanitizer. they are supplemental sanitizers, not primary sanitizers.

so since MPS is not a sanitizer, the only way to really truly know that your tub is free of bacteria is to be sure you have some level of free chlorine in the tub at all times. many people add dichlor after use to get to about 3ppm and then 24 hours later when you use the tub the free chlorine level is near zero. then use MPS or dichlor for their weekly shock.

if you like your current routine you might want to at least check your sanitizer level daily for a couple of weeks and insure the ozone, N2 and twice weekly dichlor dose is keeping some level of free chlorine in your tub at all times. anytime your free chlorine level is zero bacteria can freely multiply in your tub.

susan was suggesting this may be the case if your shock dose of dichlor is gone in 24 hours. it could be fighting a lot of bad stuff that's building up between dichlor doses.

remember the MPS you're putting in daily is doing nothing to kill bacteria, it only oxidizes combined chlorines and other contaminants like sweat, oils, etc..

hymbaw made a good point too, you should watch your alk and ph levels, if they are not balanced the effectiveness of your chlorine can be reduced and of course your pumps don't like overly acidic or alkaline conditions.

anyway i think you would be much safer with a daily dose of dichlor rather than a daily dose of MPS.

just trying to keep us all safe and healthy.

Steve  

[dsegel]

Hi,

Well, my happiness over my tub seems to have opened a can of worms!  

I appreciate your information but I do have a couple comments/questions.

I put the MPS in after each use because of instructions from our dealer.  I believe that the reason for the MPS rather than the Dichlor is because the CD Ozonator and the SunPurity sanitizer do the sanitizing instead of Dichlor.  I think it's the whole point of that kind of system.  Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Like I answered to Susan, after shocking, it's not that the chlorine is gone in 24 hours, there just isn't the strong chlorine smell and feel to the water after 12 hours.  (I was replying to the person before that who said she had to wait after shocking before using the tub.)

Now my question.  I test my water every couple weeks; HOWEVER, if my water was way out of balance, wouldn't the clarity of the water be bad as well?  In other words, can my water be perfectly clear for days or weeks at a time and still be out of balance?  

Thanks

[drewstar]

n other words, can my water be perfectly clear for days or weeks at a time and still be out of balance?  

Thanks

I belive it can.  I've experienced PH and CA being out of whack while the water still was clear and fresh smelling.

[TrikkeAddict]

High levels of chlorine will not usually cause a chlorine smell, to my knowledge.  It's the chloramines that cause the chlorine smell - and that's what you get rid of when you shock.

Also, you mentioned that you use 1 tsp of MPS after use - that is nothing!!!  In order to equal the power of 1 tsp of dichlor you'd have to use 3 tablespoons of MPS - if I remember correctly, it's nine to one.  

While ozone and the sunpurity cartridge may help in sanitizing, I do not depend on them alone to sanitize my tub.  I use 1-2 tsp of dichlor after each use and only shock when I have a detectable amount of combined chlorine (every two or three weeks!!).  The Taylor test kit is the best way of checking your levels.

To answer an earlier question, I use SpaGuard pH Increaser (100% Sodium Carbonate).  According the directions for a 400 gallon tub you would add 6 tsp if your pH was less than 7.2 to bring it up to 7.6.  I use the Taylor test kit to check my pH and use the acid or base demand reagents to determine how much pH up or down I need.  At 7.2 I generally use about 1 oz. of pH up to bring the pH up to 7.6.

Susan

[hymbaw]

, if my water was way out of balance, wouldn't the clarity of the water be bad as well?  

Nope
If your pH is way low you have an "acid bath" where bacteria and others bad stuff can't survive. Generally very acidic water looks fantastic.

That being said, I think you're staying on top of things. Enjoy!

[svspa]

dsegel,

Sorry didn't mean to rain on your parade, I just have a real concern about that daily MPS routine.

You're right that the dealer has put you on this program because of some belief that ozone and N2 can work as your primary sanitizers. I don't know of anyone who has any real data to back that claim up. This has been discussed a few times on this board and I think one of our resident experts (Vermonter) just recently had a thread on that.

I also have an ozonator and have used N2 cartridges in the past, I stopped using the N2 because I couldn't really see any difference in reduced chlorine demand or any of the other measures of water quality.

The bottom line is there are no test strips for bacteria level. So how do you know your tub is free of bacteria, you can't test for an ozone or N2 level either to guarantee this.

The only way to be 100% sure is to test for your primary sanitizer level (dichlor or bromine if you're using bromine). Free chlorine will change to combined chlorine when it has killed something, if you have a residual of free chlorine you know your tub is sanitized and you have additional free chlorine waiting to kill any newly introduced bugs.

Your water can definitely look and smell okay for days and in fact it's my opinion that the daily MPS routine can easily mask the issue. I would be concerned about the time between your dichlor doses, if your dichlor level gets to zero between these doses then the nasties can start multiplying. Next time you do your dichlor shock you kill everything and everything looks great, but what were you soaking in between the dichlor doses? You mentioned that your tub occasionally is cloudy before the dichlor dose, that could be the indication that something is growing between your dichlor doses.

trikkeaddict is right about the smell, but I would clarify on the MPS to dichlor comparison, these two chemicals can be compared when you are talking about a a shock dose (to oxidize combined chlorines) but they are not comparable as daily sanitizers. MPS is an oxidizer, not a sanitizer.

Just as a comparison, my routine is a daily dose of dichlor and approximately every week a shock of either MPS or dichlor. This week I did a dichlor shock on Sunday and since I have been busy we haven't used the tub. Last night I checked and I still have about 1ppm of free chlorine in my tub. That tells me that my tub is pretty clean since it has a really low chlorine demand, there's nothing in my tub to eat up the free chlorine.

If you wanted to make the switch there is really little change you would need to make to your routine. Use dichlor for your daily dose (test a few times to determine how much dichlor you need to get your tub to 3-5ppm after your daily dose, a norm there seems to be about 1/2 teaspoon per person). Then just use your MPS as a weekly shock, occasionally a dichlor shock is good to super sanitize your tub.

Your ozone and N2 cartridge provide some additional sanitizing effect, a little added insurance but I believe most folks agree it's not enough to replace your daily sanitizer.

Note also that dichlor is much less expensive than MPS and doesn't add to TDS as much as MPS, additional benefits.

Steve

[dsegel]

OK Steve!

You have convinced me to give the dichlor routine a try!    No offense intended, btw.  I appreciate your being patient enough and caring enough that I'm taking care of my water (and my health) properly!  

Now, really DUMB question.  How do I check for free chlorine?  I have planned on getting a Taylor kit but have been waiting for my test strips to run out.  Will I need a Taylor kit for it or does the chlorine test on the test strips test for free chlorine?

Thanks.

[svspa]

dsegel,

Good to hear, i'll feel better about coming over for a soak now  

I am sure your strips already test for free chlorine (FC).

I have a Taylor kit that I use occasionally to confirm the accuracy of my test strips or to test for things like combined chlorine. Generally though I think the strips are accurate enough, this is not something you need to stress about. Close is good enough.

I would recommend you change after your next dichlor shock so your tub is as clean as possible. If your FC level is down to zero the day after a dichlor shock you might want to give it another dose. In a clean tub you should have a residual FC level after a dichlor shock for a few days.

I think most folks who use dichlor to shock will not use the tub the day after the shock because the FC level is still pretty high. That's where MPS comes in. MPS is a great oxidizer so it cleans up the combined chlorines (that cause the chlorine smell) and other contaminants (sweat, oils, etc.). You can use it for your shock dose instead of dichlor and then you can use the tub about 30-60 minutes after the MPS dose.

Once you can get back to a reasonable residual FC level, 3-5ppm, you can start your normal routine. After using the tub instead of adding MPS add dichlor. The plan is to get the FC level to 3-5ppm 20 minutes after adding dichlor. A rule of thumb there is about 1/2 teaspoon per person that just used the tub. If you are on a routine using your tub about the same time every day then the next time you use your tub the residual FC should be down below 1ppm so when you soak there isn't much chlorine left.

Rinse and repeat.  

The key thing I think you need to do as you are starting on the dichlor routine is test frequently. You'll start to understand how much dichlor you need to add to get your tub to get any particular level of FC without having to test and you'll understand how long residual FC will stay in your tub.

Then you really know you have control of your tub. For instance if you won't be using the tub for a few days you'll easily know how much dichlor to add to keep a residual of FC around while you're not using the tub.

Most of all don't stress! Relax, it's not hard and there are plenty of very knowlegeable people here to support you.

Steve

PS: Don't forget to keep that PH and ALK in balance too, they do impact the effectiveness of your sanitizer.