Who is telling me the truth?Arctic or Beachcomber?

[Tman122]

First time I ever beat a dead horse.......that felt kinda good.

[wesj53]

Let me repeat Tman122, I'm not criticizing other spa owners or their intelligence. My only point was that it seems that reading posts from Arctic owners, they seem to have done a lot of research before buying their units. That says nothing about other spa owers who may have done the same. I respect all spa owners who look past the reputations or sales volumes of certain brands and/or just buying on looks. But we all - regardless of the brand we bought - think it was the best product for our situation. I just personally think that Arctic has some of the best engineering features of the spas I looked at. I hope I will not be disappointed. And no, I don't have blinders on as I recognize that there is no perfect tub produced including the Tundra. Heck, there are lemon BMW's out there; so may be the case in the spa industry as well. And I'm glad you were able to beat this dead horse as well!

[Tom]

Tom.....you know how I feel about that study. I said it a year or two ago and I\I will say it now, scewed results to favor the company that payed for it.

I sure do know how you feel, Roger.  There have been several good critiques of the study, though most people seem to focus on the charts on page 7 and overlook the rest.  The discussions have by-and-large been focused and professional and I have enjoyed them.

Skewed to favor the company that commissioned the study?  Not really necessary; we wouldn't have paid if we hadn't been confident of the outcome.  Still, "He who pays the piper calls the tune," which accounts for page 8.  

What I think is impressive is that Arctic has published those figures for all to see and debate.  Or beat after it's dead, whatever.

Anybody else who wants to pay for eight spas and a research facility is welcome to do their own study.  

Tom
Peeking over my blinders as it were since the company pays my salary...

[drewstar]

Tom.....you know how I feel about that study. I said it a year or two ago and I\I will say it now, scewed results to favor the company that payed for it.

Skewed to favor the company that commissioned the study?  Not really necessary; we wouldn't have paid if we hadn't been confident of the outcome.  Still, "He who pays the piper calls the tune," which accounts for page 8.  

What I think is impressive is that Arctic has published those figures for all to see and debate.  Or beat after it's dead, whatever.

No, Artic would stil pay for the study.  They just wouldn't publish the results.   In paid, private studies, the results belong to the customer and they can choose to reveil the results or not. Many big companies do studies like this all the time, and when the results don't favor them, the reports never see the light of day. The researchers are bound by non-disclosure agreements as well.  

It's a nice spin to say they were confident in the outcome, and to imply they would  publically publish the reports regardless of the results is misleading or naive.

[wesj53]

I believe Tom's point here drewstar is that Arctic is the only company which to our knowledge has paid for a study and released the results. Now, it could be possible that other mfgs may have conducted a similar study but decided NOT to release the study results (as you state they have a right to do) because the findings weren't favorable towards their brand. This argument works both ways.

All consumers like me know is that in a industry in the millions of dollars, very few "independent" studies have been performed to try and determine whether there are in fact advantages or disadvantages with different methods of production. Many of us wonder why - especially when there are powerhouses like HS and Jacuzzi/Sundance out there who could really dominate the market with their vast distribution channels - the larger companies don't provide some data that shows their units to be engineered superior to their competitors.

[drewstar]

I agree fully wesj53. In fact, I find it suspicious that these huge corporations have not already done so.  I think it's great that Artic did it. But do I find it the end all report? Nope. To me, I see it as factual as any other comerical or ad.

And I am not bashing Artic. From what I hear, they have many satsified customers.

[Tman122]

I think theres a "study" more like a test I think though, that was conducted by HS where there Tub was miles ahead of the others they tested. This test was also picked apart. They used a 110 volt version of one of there tubs and it was conducted in a closed environment....blah, blah, blah. My point is, and no one seems to see it, this test had been used to decieve people into thinking they have the most energy effiecient tub made today, whatever, it's the way I would market it also if I worked for Arctic. But if you truely look at the results and are not clouded by "what you think is the best engineering" turns out they are a fine tub........just not better than several other brands. And to think anyone elses research that didn't come to the same conclusion is somehow flawed is ludicrist.

I am sure there's someone out there smarter than all of us that has researched more than any of us and come to a different conclusion. Got a guy working in this office that somehow thinks his research is the only valid research and he chose a brand I won't even mention. He's as adament about his research as those I have seen here over and over during the years. I think he's an idiot.

[Tman122]

I believe Tom's point here drewstar is that Arctic is the only company which to our knowledge has paid for a study and released the results. Now, it could be possible that other mfgs may have conducted a similar study but decided NOT to release the study results (as you state they have a right to do) because the findings weren't favorable towards their brand. This argument works both ways.

All consumers like me know is that in a industry in the millions of dollars, very few "independent" studies have been performed to try and determine whether there are in fact advantages or disadvantages with different methods of production. Many of us wonder why - especially when there are powerhouses like HS and Jacuzzi/Sundance out there who could really dominate the market with their vast distribution channels - the larger companies don't provide some data that shows their units to be engineered superior to their competitors.

Could it be that they just don't care, because when it comes right dow to it 20 or 21 dollars a month the consumer just don't care.

[wesj53]

I agree, most consumers probably don't care about heavy researching of many of the products they buy whether it's a hot tub, car, or washing machine. But for those of us that do like to perform our due diligence, it makes it very difficult when there is very little truely INDEPENDENT testing of product, including spas. I guess that's all I'm saying guys. In a perfect world, each mfg donates one or two of their models to a lab for testing that is paid for equally by all mfgs participating. Then a battery of tests is performed on a variety of issues; ie energy use, insulation values, strength of jets, etc. For those of us more curious than the majority, such a study would be quite interesting and helpful.

[Tman122]

I  In a perfect world, each mfg donates one or two of their models to a lab for testing that is paid for equally by all mfgs participating. Then a battery of tests is performed on a variety of issues; ie energy use, insulation values, strength of jets, etc. For those of us more curious than the majority, such a study would be quite interesting and helpful.

OK....it's going to be a pain but I will start cleaning my garage, start sending the checks to.....................and the spas to................and I will get to work.

[Tman122]

Let me repeat Tman122, I'm not criticizing other spa owners or their intelligence. !

Oh and wes....you wern't repeating, you never said you weren't criticizing. You gave that impression though. Now you have said it, so you don't need to repeat it.