Who is telling me the truth?Arctic or Beachcomber?

[Spatech_tuo]

Was there a point somewhere in there Mr. Norge Repairman?

Sure there was a point. I found it comical that you made the statement "Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!" as if they are somehow different in some way from other spa owners.

[wesj53]

[
Sure there was a point. I found it comical that you made the statement "Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!" as if they are somehow different in some way from other spa owners. [/quote]
Well, I'm glad you found some comedy in my comment Spatech, but I NEVER said or even implied that Arctic owners are different from other spa owners or better in any way. If you thought there was an edge to my comments, then you misunderstood. I was just replying to Pathfinder about his flippant "kool aid" reference. Sometimes a little humor is what is needed when you get an ignorant comment like that. Let me just add this (and I don't mean to offend ANY other spa owners), but based on the comments here as well as another spa site, I find (and I am biased I admit) that Arctic owners really do a lot of research before buying a unit. They seem to be well educated on the subject and buy based not only on comfort but also the engineering of the units and the various differences that exist between mfgs. I recognize this observation is made from a very small sample, so it isn't scientific; rather just my thoughts. Have a nice day and TGIF!

[Spatech_tuo]

Well, I'm glad you found some comedy in my comment Spatech, but I NEVER said or even implied that Arctic owners are different from other spa owners or better in any way.

Then, 2 sentences later in the same paragraph you state!

I find (and I am biased I admit) that Arctic owners really do a lot of research before buying a unit. They seem to be well educated on the subject and buy based not only on comfort but also the engineering of the units and the various differences that exist between mfgs.

So if you're not saying Arctic owners are differnt are you therefore saying that spa owners of other brands equally "do a lot of research before buying a unit" and "seem to be well educated on the subject and buy based not only on comfort but also the engineering"?

Either you ARE implying they are somehow a different breed of people or you're just complimenting all spa brand shoppers for their thoroughness in shopping for a spa.

[wesj53]

My only point Spatech was that my observation of Arctic posters seem to indicate they do a lot of research before buying a unit. This was to answer Pathfinder's implication that Arctic owners simply believe whatever Arctic dealers tell them (ie kool aid drinkers). As an Arctic owner, I admit I read posts on Arctic more carefully so no, I am not saying that spa owners of other makes do not make technical judgement of products as well. I would hope EVERY prospective buyer not only looks at the outside of the product, but also looks "underneath the hood". If a buyer ONLY buys based on what is comfortable but buys a junk product, then he is not educating himself (or herself) properly and therefore would make a poor choice. That's all I'm saying. Hope that clears the air.

[Tom]

Just a little clarification on the Arctic Spa Alberta Research Council Thermal Study:

Thanks to pkud for an excellent critique.  His comments are accurate and many of his conclusions are correct.  But not all...

First off, readers need to be aware that this study was NOT conducted by Arctic Spas.  It was done by an independent test laboratory, the Alberta Research Council.   All spas used in the study--including ours--were purchased at random from retail locations by the ARC, so they got "off the floor" models.  Contrary to what some commentators have suggested, we did not "load" our spas with a special cover or any other changes.

(1a)  This study was done on each spa independently. In other words not at the same time, hence each product was being tested in fluctuating conditions including differences in ambient temperature and spa water temp of each model tested.

That is neither here nor there; serial testing in a single controlled environment is a common method, and it is probable that few commercial test labs are large enough to handle eight spas at a time.

Although its freezer room is a controlled environment, the ARC notes on page 1 that "There are several differences in the spas that complicate the evaluation.  Some of these differences are variation in the spa volume; different heating and filtering systems and their modes of operation; and small variations in the air temperatures during the tests."  In his comments, pkud has picked up on each of these differences.

(1b)  The power consumption charts which are available to the public in fact show that the HotSpring spa outperformed any of the other spas tested based upon kilowatt usage. 

Well, not quite.  The Vanguard did very well at room temperature (20 degrees C, 68F).  In the freezer at -13C (10F), the picture changes slightly, with both large Kodiaks using almost the same kWh as the smaller Vanguard.  See #2 below.

(2)  The figures that Arctic Spas the Alberta Research Council used to determine the outcome of the study are completely altered by the fact that the data used was created by dividing the total power consumed by the volume of water in each spa.

Yes, pkud is absolutely right on this one.  It obviously takes more energy to heat a larger volume of water than a small one, so you can't just look at the kWh.  In order to equitably compare a large and a small spa, you need to look at how much energy it takes to heat a standard volume of water.  The ARC took the specific power, Watts per Cubic Meter, which is the right hand column in the charts on page 7 of the study.  In this column, in the freezer test, the two Arctic Kodiaks rank 1st and 2nd, with the Vanguard coming 3rd.

The need for a specific measure is recognized by the California Energy Commission which based their proposed Title 20 on the formula  E=5(V^2/3) where V is the volume in US gallons and E is the acceptable energy usage (in kWh??).  If pkud is involved in the industry, he will know this, and is just trying to dodge the bullet.

(3)  In this study The HotSpring Spa is labled with an asterisk in all the power consumption charts.  This shows that the spa does not have Auto-filtering, or that the filtering must be started manually.  Infact, HotSpring spas have a 24hr circ pump for filtering with no need to manually start any filtering cycles.  All the other spas tested were done so while they were filtering on low speed, while the HS model was tested while pumps were on high speed.

I can find no indication of the pump speed setting in the study, so must assume from pkud's comment that the Vanguard does not have a low speed setting.  I suspect that this means that the Vanguard was manually turned on to match the other units, which would indeed make the HotSprings look even better were this not the case.

The HotSpring Vanguard <snip> consumed 40% less energy then the comparable sized Arctic Coyote model.

True; in one test it was 44% less.  The Coyote is our entry-level line and is not constructed to the high specs of the Arctic line.  

Hope thread readers are finding this interesting and that we are not boring you to death.

Tom
Arctic Spas

[wesj53]

I appreciate both pkud's and Tom's excellent contributions on this matter. The study seems to indicate that the energy use between these 2 brands are fairly close in some cases. For those who are not statistically inclined and are still unsure as to the differences of FF vs a non FF system (like Arctic Heatlock), let me also humbly suggest you consider the factors of freeze-ups of equipment during power outages and cost of repair of leaks to each style of tub.

[Spatech_tuo]

1) My only point Spatech was that my observation of Arctic posters seem to indicate they do a lot of research before buying a unit.

2) This was to answer Pathfinder's implication that Arctic owners simply believe whatever Arctic dealers tell them (ie kool aid drinkers).

3) That's all I'm saying. Hope that clears the air.

1) I certainly don't disagree with your opinion about Arctic buyers and would add that the people who take the time to come to this site to post obviously are the types that take the time to research and therefore I'd mirror those comments about a few other brands as well (probably not seamonkey spa owners though).

2) The reality is each brand has their own flavor of kool-aid and some customers do swallow the hook pretty hard but it's not a brand specific thing. Some brands may seem to have it more because they may have a more unique story. Whether it's removeable jet packs, microclean filters, Tri-zone, No-bypass filtration, Direct-flo or whatever, they're trying to set themselves apart as opposed to so many of the cookie cutter products out there that will literally tell you "we use the same parts as everyone else" (which is also fine but there is less kool-aid consumed when that's your story).

3). Got it. Over and out.

[shabba34]

I appreciate the rebuttle Graybeard.  Unfortunately the figures are skewed regardless of how you break it down.  A spa's energy consumption is just that, its energy consumption, regardless of the volume of water being heated.  No need to divide anything.  Until the spas are tested in the same environment at the same time and most importantly, they are operated according to manufacturers specifications, the study will remain inaccurate.

Let me preface this by stating that this is my opinion and purely speculation:
The Alberta Research Council did not just decide "well, we should do some energy tests on hot tubs".  There is a reason why 3, count them 3 Arctic spas were tested compared to 1 of other manufacturers.  This was not just some research document that Arctic spas "accidentally" got there hands on.  More of a business relationship than anything else.(So no need to cross out the Arctic Spas in my dissertation of the study)  Smart, I'll give them that, but to the educated, still inaccurate.  

[wesj53]

[1) I certainly don't disagree with your opinion about Arctic buyers and would add that the people who take the time to come to this site to post obviously are the types that take the time to research and therefore I'd mirror those comments about a few other brands as well (probably not seamonkey spa owners though).

2) The reality is each brand has their own flavor of kool-aid and some customers do swallow the hook pretty hard but it's not a brand specific thing. Some brands may seem to have it more because they may have a more unique story. Whether it's removeable jet packs, microclean filters, Tri-zone, No-bypass filtration, Direct-flo or whatever, they're trying to set themselves apart as opposed to so many of the cookie cutter products out there that will literally tell you "we use the same parts as everyone else" (which is also fine but there is less kool-aid consumed when that's your story).

3). Got it. Over and out.[/quote]
The only other point I would make Spatech is that I find a lot of industry types on these sites don't give credit to their competitors for coming up with new ideas and technology. HS should be given credit for their Moto Massage to Artesian for their Direct Flow, to Arctic and others for their innovations. I would much rather sell a product like a spa where there are actual understandable differences between makes and models. Try selling a product like insurance (like I do) and see how difficult that it is to point out differences in policies. So, I think the phrase "kool aid" is used too often here. Advancements in all industries is what has made this country the best on earch. GOD BLESS THE USA!!!  

[Pathfinder]

Should I have used Tang instead??       I never put down Arctic in any of my posts.   Wes I'm sorry you feel backed into a corner for you seem to have to justify to everyone about your purchase of an Arctic.  Be happy enjoy your tub and RELAX thats what they are for bc you seem to be wound pretty tight or is your tub not doing the job it was supposed to.

I would have more to say but Spatech stole my words.

I think you should get out of the insurance game and see if Tom can hook you up with a rep job so you can preach your gospel to the masses.

PS its a forum dont be so serious and people have an opinion,
when you take everything too serious you end up like everyones favorite  Industry Crusader.

oh yeah    HEY KOOL_AID!!!!!

[wesj53]

 
NO, MAYBE CAMOMILE TEA INSTEAD TO RELAX! YOU APPEAR TO ME UPSET WITH ME AND YOU SHOULD NOT BE.

[ I never put down Arctic in any of my posts.]
I KNOW YOU DIDN'T AND I DIDN'T STATE THAT YOU DID.

[Wes I'm sorry you feel backed into a corner for you seem to have to justify to everyone about your purchase of an Arctic.]
I DON'T FEEL BACKED INTO A CORNER! MY POSTS RESPOND TO THE TOPIC AT HAND. I DON'T THINK I GO OUT OF MY WAY TO JUSTIFY MY PURCHASE, BUT I MAY OFFER SOLID REASONS WHY I DID. THAT'S JUST THE MARK OF AN EDUCATED CONSUMER. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT. IMO, IT BEATS THE PERSON WHO GOES OUT AND BUYS THE FIRST UNIT HE SEES EVEN WITHOUT WET TESTING.

[ Be happy enjoy your tub and RELAX thats what they are for bc you seem to be wound pretty tight or is your tub not doing the job it was supposed to. ]
THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE WRITTEN WORD; MANY TIMES THE TONE OF THE MESSAGE IS INCORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD. ACTUALLY, I WRITE MOST OF MY MESSAGES WITH A SMILE ON MY FACE! ACTUALLY, I HAVEN'T TAKEN POSSESSION OF THE TUB YET; DELIVERY IN 2 WEEKS. I'LL LET YOU THEN HOW THINGS ARE GOING, DEAL?

I would have more to say but Spatech stole my words.

[I think you should get out of the insurance game and see if Tom can hook you up with a rep job so you can preach your gospel to the masses.]
SEE? THERE YOU GO AGAIN. COMPARING A BELIEF IN A PRODUCT AND WANTING TO PASS ON WHAT ONE HAS LEARNED TO OTHERS VS PREACHING THE GOSPEL. THAT'S CUTE, BUT NOT ACCURATE. PLUS, I'VE HAD TO START OVER IN CAREERS A FEW TIMES IN MY LIFE. THE INSURANCE BIZ IS GOING JUST FINE SO ALTHOUGH THE SPA INDUSTRY IS A LOT MORE INTERESTING THAN INSURANCE, I DON'T THINK I COULD AFFORD THE PAY CUT THAT I WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO TAKE!

[PS its a forum dont be so serious and people have an opinion,
when you take everything too serious you end up like everyones favorite  Industry Crusader.]
I'M NOT ALWAYS SERIOUS. CHECK OUT TERM'S THREAD AND YOU'LL FIND SOME LIGHT HEARTED BANTER! I DON'T WHAT OR WHO INDUSTRY CRUSADER.

oh yeah    HEY KOOL_AID!!!!!  
DRINK UP! /quote]

[Pathfinder]

Far from  upset  I've been laughing most of the time reading this topic bc you wouldnt let the Kool-Aid remark slide    and this subject has gotten to be about Arctic instead of Beachcomber and Arctic  

I hope all goes smoothly when you get your tub   Friends of my parents enjoy their Arctic and they live outside of Chitown as well

And I only drink and offer Sugar Free KOOL-AID by Calspa   still just as good but better for you

[wesj53]

Yeah, it's funny how these threads can get hijacked, and sometimes not by design. Good, I'm glad you're not upset. Stupid to develop hard feelings over hot tubs!

Still corks me that neither dealer here in town actively markets Cals. I wonder why the mfg isn't going out and getting new distribution. Big market here!

Take care and I'm glad to see your parents pick out such intelligent friends!!!

[Tom]

The Alberta Research Council did not just decide "well, we should do some energy tests on hot tubs".  There is a reason why 3, count them 3 Arctic spas were tested compared to 1 of other manufacturers.  

No need to be coy, pkud.  It's right there on page 2 of the study:  "ARC performed this non-standardized test on behalf of Arctic Spas of Thorsby, Alberta.  A list of comparative spas for evaluation was provided by Arctic Spas."  (Will everybody kindly read the entire study, not just the tables on page 7!!!)

IMO Arctic has been remarkably open in providing this study for public scrutiny.  There seems to be little other comparative data out there.  

The study certainly has been a popular topic for kicking around (and at) amongst our competitors, and has been the source of much interesting debate both on the forums and privately.  

Tom
Arctic Spas

[Tman122]

Tom.....you know how I feel about that study. I said it a year or two ago and I\I will say it now, scewed results to favor the company that payed for it.

According to the study if you want the most energy effiecient spa out there you should buy the HS and get the 1oo dollar cover upgrade. Thats all I got from the study, and I don't care for the HS line.

And wes there are plenty of people who do more and more thorough research than you, and don't come to the same conclusion that you did. Does that make them stupid or you somehow smarter? I have been researching this for 10-15 years and i didn't come up with the same conclusion as you. I do however think Arctic is a fine product, just not better than several other brands out there. You seem to think they are the best ever, and the fact that you chose one may be narrowing your blinders a bit.