Visited Arctic dealer today...............

[stl-rex]

I would think that whatever time you have once you start to drop you will drop quickly since there is nothing left to try and keep things warm.

The perimeter is fully insulated.  There's plenty of insulation to keep things warm.  It's going to take a long time for 500 gallons of 104 degree water to freeze and the beauty of it is, that water will help keep the equipment from freezing substantially longer than uninsulated FF equipment areas.

I am not so sure why this seems to be so hard to understand but my post was in reference to water temp and in reading this thread It occurred to me that in areas (like where I am) freezing simply does not happen, So if the biggest advantage of a TP design does not really apply here and since it is fair to say that a FF will keep the water hotter with out power which would also mean it probably takes less to power to keep hot, than in this type of an environment a FF just might be the more effecient spa . I do not think its a reach or is there any twisting of whats being said. I have seen FF we carry lose power for 5 days and drop only 10 degrees. I am not so sure the TP design would do that but hey maybe so. But if freezing is a issue where you live than yes perhaps it has an advantage there.

Perhaps or perhaps not.  Again, if a high percentage of the pump heat is retained during filtration, it may offset any inherent heat retention of FF.  It's not just TP or FF, it has to be well executed for both.  Remember, the TP spa is still well insulated so it's not as if you are comparing FF to no insulation.  At that point, you're talking wet test.  Where it's routinely well below freezing, TP might be an influencing factor, but shouldn't be the sole factor.

By the way, no comment on propping the cover vs venting the spa equipement area in those areas that get hot?

Stuart was right - pffffffffft - another can of worms opened!

[Vinny]

IF you lost power to your home - is the tub really going to be your concern? I don't have a fireplace or wood burning stove in my house so I would think my first priority is to keep my family warm. Next would be house pipes, then eventually hot tub. Heck anyone who lives with an updated kitchen doesn't have the ability to turn on the oven for warmth (I know this is extremely unsafe).

I see Mendo's point about FF being possibly more efficient as I do the Arctic side about protecting the pipes. Mendo is talking about the tub operating and the Arctic is talking about when it's not. I think everyone's in agreement that the weakest link in the FF tub is the equipment cabinet. Will it freeze solid at 0 F in 3 or 6 or 24 hours, I couldn't say but I believe no one can either. I personally would agree with Mendo that a FF tub's main water area is better insulated than a TP (see paragraph below). I am also amazed that Bosco 's water heated as quickly as it did during his initial (?) fill up. My water heats about  5 F an hour and it takes about 10 hours to heat it to temp, so I think the concept of using the heat from the pumps works.

I have a question though and Doc has brought this up as to how does a TP tub handle the wind? It is generally accepted in the housing industry that air leakage is the main culprit in houses losing their heat. Also it's accepted that sprayed in foam insulation stops heat loss and air infiltration. But there is an optimal amount of insulation and there is also the law of diminishing returns. I believe most FF tubs are insulated to that point (diminishing returns) for whatever reason (NOT OPENING UP ANOTHER ARGUMENT).

It sounds like I'm fence sitting and maybe I am but I truely didn't care what type of insulation my tub had. My original choice for a tub was Emerald which was TP, but I bought an Artesian which is FF. I will say that if I did buy an Emerald I was going to get it's best insulation package.

I know I didn't solve anything but I am going to say that if it's -20 F and I lose power I'm going to get my family to warmth, worry about my house and IF I have time I'll worry about the frozen tub. Heck if you lose power and are still in your house a few hours later, drain the sucker even if it's TP or FF!

[Mendocino101]

lol....Vinny...Vinny....that just makes to much sense....I think both are fine and each has certain advantages ....Sometimes and I am not implying it to anyone in this thread that some people will over state things on both sides......

[stl-rex]

lol....Vinny...Vinny....that just makes to much sense....I think both are fine and each has certain advantages ....Sometimes and I am not implying it to anyone in this thread that some people will over state things on both sides......

I don't think it was directed at me, I try to stick to facts or factual speculation?.  And it definitely wasn't an influencing factor for me.  Mine was all wet test.

[ramdom]

I think you should look in the 'Beating A Dead Horse' forum - you may be surprised at what you find.

Like maybe your entire thread, heheh.

[PackerPaul]

  Since I had the dubious distinction of starting this thread, I thought I should comment on what I have learned..

 1. Have a plan! For those of us in the northern states where we have plenty of sub-freezing and sub-zero days each winter, this topic has great value. I plan on installing a remote temp sensorhttp://http://www.technika.com/Sper/s800025.htmhttp:// in my equipment area so I can always see my internal temp.(only $23 & has high/low temp alarms) I also intend to have a back-up plan to heat the equipment area if my spa loses power for any reason. ( I am buying a FF spa)

 2. Some manufactuors are monitoring this site! I received an e-mail shortly after starting this thread from Arctic wanting to know the name & location of the dealer that I had visited. This to me speaks highly of them as well as this forums influence.

 3. This forum is loaded with many smart people who can have a dissagrement about something and still remain fairly civil. This is rare on many internet forums  and speaks well of the people and moderators.

  Thanks again for all who contributed and I'll try not to start any topics that end up here again

[Spatech_tuo]

 Since I had the dubious distinction of starting this thread, I thought I should comment on what I have learned..

  

I always recommend this site to people because I know it will make ANY individual a better informed consumer if they spend a few days/weeks monitoring it. This goes not only for techinal people, do-it-yourselfers, etc. but also for the average Joe/Jane who may be more of a hands off person.

Paul,
Let us know how things go, what won out in the end and what got you to pull the trigger and sign on the dotted-line.

P.S.- Reggie Bush sure would look good in Green and Yellow.

[HotTubMan]

 
  2. Some manufactuors are monitoring this site! I received an e-mail shortly after starting this thread from Arctic wanting to know the name & location of the dealer that I had visited. This to me speaks highly of them as well as this forums influence.

This dosen't surprise me at all.

[spaman--]

I certainly know Cal Spas monitors this site as many calls as I get from corporate! LOL

[loneoak]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that if you buy an Arctic spa, you do not need to pour a concrete pad?  It comes with its own floor, a very hard plastic.

We were unsure as to where to put the spa, so we removed some grass and had it placed there, just beyond the deck & flower garden.  If we want to move it at any time, it's no hassle.

You need to factor in the cost of the concrete pad in the hot tub costs when comparing priced.  And the ease of moving it ot another location if the need arises.

Astrid.

[Spatech_tuo]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that if you buy an Arctic spa, you do not need to pour a concrete pad?  It comes with its own floor, a very hard plastic.

We were unsure as to where to put the spa, so we removed some grass and had it placed there, just beyond the deck & flower garden.  If we want to move it at any time, it's no hassle.

You need to factor in the cost of the concrete pad in the hot tub costs when comparing priced.  And the ease of moving it ot another location if the need arises.

Astrid.

Having a base is always best. There are other spas that could probably say that also but I don't think it's wise to advise people to do that.

[loneoak]

Why is it better to have a concrete base?  This seems to be working well for us.  The fact that we can re-locate it appeals to us.

Astrid.

[Spatech_tuo]

Why is it better to have a concrete base?  This seems to be working well for us.  The fact that we can re-locate it appeals to us.

Astrid.

I never said you "need to" have concrete only that all things being equal that is the best way to go. That doesn't mean it won't be OK the way you went and if it works best for you or a particular owner for whatever reason then they can decide to go that route.

[Brookenstein]

We have a HS Envoy and put it on a portable pad.  We did however, dig up the sod first, put down a border with bricks and then fill it 2-3" deep with sand.  We couldn't put the tub on our existing concrete patio as it is too sloped.  We ended up putting the tub smack in the middle of our yard.  We didn't want to add more concrete, so the portable pad was the way to go or so we thought... it was a bit more work than we anticipated and we kind of wish we would have just done a ground level deck or pavers... but its okay.

[Tom]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that if you buy an Arctic spa, you do not need to pour a concrete pad? It comes with its own floor, a very hard plastic.
<snip>
Astrid.

Nope, not plastic, Astrid.  The Arctic Spas Forever Floor is made from either hand-rolled  or pressure-moulded (SMC)  fiberglass composite.