Visited Arctic dealer today...............

[Mendocino101]

. I'll take my chances with TP tub(which will retain the heat from the hot  water protecting equipment) like an Arctic at least where i live.....where it does get belowing freezing!  

So how does heat and life of motors factor in . It is reasonable  and accepted that heat is what cuts short the life of most any motor in many different applications ......How is it that trapping heat and what amounts to baking the motors is some how a good thing. I think Arctic really does build a fine product and has many things that it does well. But there are reasonable questions to what claims are sometimes made.

[Mendocino101]

Just to add for me this is a very interesting topic as i have never fully appreciated  how the TP in some circumstances would offer any real advantage. It seems to me that in extreme cold climates it may at times offer some upsides but in other climates it will simply not be as efficient.

[crapjack]

I love it...TP vs FF--The idea is that with TP the 105 degree water will keep the equipment area warm and being insulated on top with lid and cavity with insulation all around it and insulated floor, you will retain a heated air space possibly postponing freezing time. It will take hours if not days to cool 450 gallons of water thats insulated.  
These spa motors are meant to be run in a higher ambient temp. look at the name plate on motor somewhere around 50 C =140 F(approx) not really a consideration---when we are talking about freeze up anyways      

[Mendocino101]

Sorry but you can not have it both ways, You except people to take a giant leap of faith to buy into this concept as it was already mentioned by TP advocate a full foam will keep the water hot longer without out heat to now and try to twist this into something else is simply not credible and dishonest.

[Mendocino101]

I love it...TP vs FF--The idea is that with TP the 105 degree water will keep the equipment area warm and being insulated on top with lid and cavity with insulation all around it and insulated floor, you will retain a heated air space possibly postponing freezing time. It will take hours if not days to cool 450 gallons of water thats insulated.  
These spa motors are meant to be run in a higher ambient temp. look at the name plate on motor somewhere around 50 C =140 F(approx) not really a consideration---when we are talking about freeze up anyways      

As a learning experience for us all....I would bet that if you put a thermometer in the equipment area of a TP the temp will exced 140F .....

[stl-rex]

I think it is stlrex that is in the ho tub business based on his lingo.  I bet he is the Arctic store owner or related to someone there.  No wonder he claims so much and has so much information.  You must have a cut throat business to toss so much information around like you do.
P.S. I actually do accounting work from home-sorry!

Bzzzzzzzzp - wrong answer.  You simply have no credibility in my opinion as you obviously came here simply to attack.  You offer no one opinions except for a token two.  If you think Mirage is fine, say so and that's OK.  Did you shop at Arctic StL?.  Have you wet tested their spas?  Did you try to negotiate with the St. Louis dealer.?  Do you know anything about the brand?  I highly doubt it.  I have nothing against Sundance and have not attacked the brand.  I think their filters are expensive, but that's another thread.  I disapproved of a local dealers tactics and responded to another forum members questions.  Get over it and quit whining.  Gee, just because a person chooses to learn as much as possible about a purchase doesn't make them a dealer.  But I'll take it as a complement.  Thank you.

[stl-rex]

Sorry but you can not have it both ways, You except people to take a giant leap of faith to buy into this concept as it was already mentioned by TP advocate a full foam will keep the water hot longer without out heat to now and try to twist this into something else is simply not credible and dishonest.

I've seen it as the FF people twisting it also.  They talk about the spa not freezing, but they're not including the mostly exposed equipment, which no one appears to dispute will freeze sooner in a FF vs a TP.  Perhaps each has its strengths and weaknesses.  But assuming fully exposed pump parts, I'm not sure how FF pumps wouldn't freeze faster.  I don't know how long power normally is out in the winter if it is knocked out.  I remember one ice storm in the midwest knocking out power for 1-2 days, but no more.  Ample time for FF equipment to freeze, perhaps not enough time for TP equipment to freeze.  I find the argument interesting, but not particularly important in the lower midwest states.  

I asked the same question regarding ambient temps around the pumps and got an answer of the pump area reaching between 120F and 125F maximum.  That data came from the dealer based on private tests at the mfr.  However, I do not know the exact test criteria that yielded that number and the test was conducted by the mfr so that number comes with a caveat.  One can dispute the number, but at least in my mind, the dealer had an immediate answer which may be better than general speculation.

[Mendocino101]

Stl-Rex,

First let me say ...I was only pointing out the differences and what lead me to post in the first place was the observation that if the real biggest benefit to the TP style is freezing in the equipment area than in areas where freezing is of no concern and since it was pointed out by a advocate of the TP style than a FF would keep the water hotter and for a longer period of time without power than in those areas it would certainly be more efficient .....As for the temp question I hoped that someone like you would go and stick a thermometer in the equipment area so we could know, it would not be hard to do. And again I will say that I truly think Arctic builds a good spa and for some people it may be the very best spa but that they may not be the best spa everyone and there designs in some areas may not be as efficient some others.

[Tman122]

Think about pump or heater FAILURE, or GFCI trip NOT poweroutage...when its -20 C out, water freezes very fast like in the pump or heater or lines that have NO insulation protecting them.  You leave for work and all is well you come home from work 8-10 hrs later things will freeze in a FF spa--the tub water and shell will still be warm but your pump,heater and lines are all exposed to that COLD ambient outside temperature of -20 (you see the point).  Now you need a replacement part possibly pump or heater do you actually think you will get one that evening?Not likely, we are talking about a Spa Guy/salesman. I'll take my chances with TP tub(which will retain the heat from the hot  water protecting equipment) like an Arctic at least where i live.....where it does get belowing freezing!  

Lets also keep in mind that some FF tubs and some partial foam tubs have insulated equipment areas, or a winter kit as Arctic calls it. In my GL there is thinner foam next to the equipment bay and removable reflective R20 insulation surrounding the equipment area. This thinner foam does generate alot more heat loss from the vessel than the other areas with more foam. this warmth radiates into the equipment helping it to keep from freezing longer. Now at -20-30 F heat loss from any brand TP or FF (Arctic or Hot Springs) is quit substantial (look at it in an infered camera once) And a repair will need to be made ASAP. A contingency plan needs to be directed. Tarp and heater for me to supply the repair guy (myself) with a warm place to fix it. But if I wasn't fixing it myself and I had to call the repair guy, and I let him know I had the tub covered and was blowing heat under the cover to make it comfortable for his repair!!!!! Maybe the lady down the street can wait till it warms up a bit!! Hot Springs and Marquis in this area (Northern Minnesota) offer a winter kit for there tubs that insulates the equipment area. That advantage for the TP guys is gone IMO. I still think a combination of TP and 3/4 foam is the best...why cause I built it!! And it works good.

[Hot Tub Guru]

Posted by: Mendocino101
""""As a learning experience for us all....I would bet that if you put a thermometer in the equipment area of a TP the temp will exced 140F ..... """"""



As regards to this post.  I keep a thermometer on the inside of the equipment area.  It's almost always with in 1 degree of the actual water temperature.
The only time it gets to a 120 is when all pumps (usually only in a Legend spa with 3 4hp 56 frame pumps) are on for a few hours.  Example a home show!  Other then that the temp in the equipment area doesn't get much hotter the 110 but almost always around 100-104.

Here is a proposal.  Find an Arctic Spa owner who actually had to get his/her spa fixed because of freezing?   Then lets actually find out how long the power was out, what temperature the spa set at before power loss, make sure the cover was on, and the doors are on.  Compare that number to the amount of frozen spas from each other company.  

I fix rufley 50 frozen spas each winter.  Not once in 7 years have we had to replace any component on an Arctic Spa do to freezing!  That is because for 5 plus days if the water was at 104, cover on, and doors on the spa will retain heat at ZERO.  I've been told by some of the Canadian dealers that it can go that long at -20.  But I've only seen 0.  


Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[Mendocino101]

Posted by: Mendocino101
""""As a learning experience for us all....I would bet that if you put a thermometer in the equipment area of a TP the temp will exced 140F ..... """"""



As regards to this post.  I keep a thermometer on the inside of the equipment area.  It's almost always with in 1 degree of the actual water temperature.
The only time it gets to a 120 is when all pumps (usually only in a Legend spa with 3 4hp 56 frame pumps) are on for a few hours.  Example a home show!  Other then that the temp in the equipment area doesn't get much hotter the 110 but almost always around 100-104.

Here is a proposal.  Find an Arctic Spa owner who actually had to get his/her spa fixed because of freezing?   Then lets actually find out how long the power was out, what temperature the spa set at before power loss, make sure the cover was on, and the doors are on.  Compare that number to the amount of frozen spas from each other company.  

I fix rufley 50 frozen spas each winter.  Not once in 7 years have we had to replace any component on an Arctic Spa do to freezing!  That is because for 5 plus days if the water was at 104, cover on, and doors on the spa will retain heat at ZERO.  I've been told by some of the Canadian dealers that it can go that long at -20.  But I've only seen 0.  


Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

Mike...

Sounds great........ fantastic......wonderful.....but what I posted about was in the areas where freezing does not occur.....where it is of no issue....it means nothing...on the coldest of nights it might get into the 30's ....and that is very very rare.....than based on what I have read and as pointed out by a Ari tic owner, a FF spa will keep the water hotter and a for a longer period of time than a TP style will....and my point was that maybe in the climates where freezing is of concern it might make sense but in those areas where it is not....than its value means nothing and that in those areas a FF spa will be more efficient as pointed out by an Arctic owner.

[stl-rex]

Mike...

Sounds great........ fantastic......wonderful.....but what I posted about was in the areas where freezing does not occur.....where it is of no issue....it means nothing...on the coldest of nights it might get into the 30's ....and that is very very rare.....than based on what I have read and as pointed out by a Ari tic owner, a FF spa will keep the water hotter and a for a longer period of time than a TP style will....and my point was that maybe in the climates where freezing is of concern it might make sense but in those areas where it is not....than its value means nothing and that in those areas a FF spa will be more efficient as pointed out by an Arctic owner.

Sure, if the power were to go out, I'm guessing a FF tub will hold the spa shell water temp longer all things being equal (cover thickness, starting temp etc).  But you're talking about the non existent.  Unless you're in a third world country, you're power's going to be back on in a day or two not a week or two.  In days, perhaps hours, below 32F, a mostly uninsulated FF equipment area will more than likely freeze, a point yet to be refuted.  Common sense dictates that an uninsulated area is subject to the elements.  

You're trying to sneak efficiency into this when it is a separate issue.  If you want to talk efficiency, you're talking about operation, not when the power is out.  It's been widely acknowledged that well designed FF and TP tubs have similar efficiencies despite their design differences.  The design difference, however, leaves the FF equipment "out in the cold".  In the case of Arctic, since the equipments sits in the insulated area and the shell doesn't have back side insulation to prevent the heat from the motors penetrating the shell, more heat is captured when the pump is on.  Since the method of filtration uses one of the main pumps, when the filter cycles run, that heat will be captured not wasted.  One might argue that when the pumps aren't running, more heat is lost, but the method suggests (given similar efficiencies) that when the pumps are running, it appears to make up for it.  

Efficiency is all speculation and although the ARC tests showed Arctic similar to or better than other FF tubs, the results were in a controlled environment with different cover thicknesses making them an interesting study, but not necessarily representative of actual use.

Since we're digging on everything FF and TP, I see complaints of summer tub temps being difficult to control.  With a FF tub, other than propping up the cover, you're stuck.  Arctic sells screened side panels which allows heat in the equipment area to escape and thus in hot climates keep the temperature  under control.  I know in the hot StL summers of 90F +, that might come in handy.  I think I'd rather not have to prop the cover and let bugs, dirt etc in my water.  

[HotTubMan]

That is a good question. It would appear that the Arctic guys have on the stats on freeze times for FF, I can only assume they have a freeze time for an Arctic. Is it 4 days? 1 week? 4 weeks?

Stabone, Guru, please asnwer this question. You seem to know how long it takes for other things to freeze, how long before the arctic freezes with no electricity?

[Hot Tub Guru]

Posted by: HotTubMan
Stabone, Guru, please asnwer this question. You seem to know how long it takes for other things to freeze, how long before the arctic freezes with no electricity?

I can't tell you, I have never seen an Arctic Spa freeze.  Not the water in the spa, not the water in the pipes, not the water in the equipment area.  I can tell you that a few of my customers have had no power for 1-6 days (customers guess) in the middle of winter (Breckenridge, CO 9,800 feet) before they noticed the spa wasn’t operating.  Not one of my Arctic Spa customers in 7 years of selling these spas have had a frozen part on the tub.

Please find an Arctic Spa customer who actually had a frozen spa, then let’s get the details.  If and I mean if it happened it's a rare case.  

As far as a full foam spa at least the equipment area it will be typically 6 or more hours before you can have a problem.

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[Mendocino101]

Sure, if the power were to go out, I'm guessing a FF tub will hold the spa shell water temp longer all things being equal (cover thickness, starting temp etc).  But you're talking about the non existent.  Unless you're in a third world country, you're power's going to be back on in a day or two not a week or two.  In days, perhaps hours, below 32F, a mostly uninsulated FF equipment area will more than likely freeze, a point yet to be refuted.  Common sense dictates that an uninsulated area is subject to the elements.  


  

So how long before a TP design will lose the heat in the equipment area does it buy you 6 hours or 2 days, I would think that whatever time you have once you start to drop you will drop quickly since there is nothing left to try and keep things warm. If you really want to know check the temp today and shut it off and than check in 12 hours and see what it is. I am not so sure why this seems to be so hard to understand but my post was in reference to water temp and in reading this thread It occurred to me that in areas (like where I am) freezing simply does not happen, So if the biggest advantage of a TP design does not really apply here and since it is fair to say that a FF will keep the water hotter with out power which would also mean it probably takes less to power to keep hot, than in this type of an environment a FF just might be the more effecient spa . I do not think its a reach or is there any twisting of whats being said. I have seen FF we carry lose power for 5 days and drop only 10 degrees. I am not so sure the TP design would do that but hey maybe so. But if freezing is a issue where you live than yes perhaps it has an advantage there.