Visited Arctic dealer today...............

[stabone]

      The point is not how long the water inside the tub will go before it freezes,   FF  tub will retain water temp's for days or weeks sitting with no power!  
 The problem is that the equipment area is outside all the insulation,  with an uninsulated door between the outside and equipment.    What happens with FF design during power or eqiupment failure is that,  hours later the water can still be warm inside the tub while the   water sitting in the pumps and heater can begin to freeze.    
    Unless it is way way below freezing I have never seen or heared a tub freezing in 3 hours,   I would say 6 to 8 hours before freezing starts.   I have seen it happen overnight or while people are gone for the day!   And they can't figure out why the water in the tub is still warm  and their topside control is displaying ICE and their pumps are humming!  Most times we get there before the ice damages anything, and blast the equipment area with a heater.   I have also seen whole spa packs destroyed from ice expanding and cracking pump wet ends, heaters, or pipe fittings.    
 
     I hope this helps answer your question.  

   Enjoy your spa.  

   

[PackerPaul]

Contingency plans man.

  Lots of excellent advice ...thanks to all

I was more concerened with equipment failure than with total power failure as that is quite rare in our parts...southern Wi. Hopefully equipment failure will be rare too. A  small heater or light bulb sounds like good advice till service can respond.

[PackerPaul]

PackerPaul-

 What Arctic dealer did you visit?  Was it the one in Burnsville by any chance?  (about 20 miles south of MPLS)

Yes....It was a very impressive store with lots of spas & many filled & ready to test. They had a nice display set-up with all the covers off and a cutaway section of just a corner seat to show the thickness of the shell and insulation.

[Spatech_tuo]

Call up any "service company" (in a cold weater area), and ask how many frozen spas have you fixed?  How many were Arctic Spas?

When an Arctic sales person tells this to a customer, they are not selling this feature basied on fear.  

That is certainly something to boast about as is anything that is a positive about your brand. At the same time, the example in this thread of boosting ones image by going into negatives about other brands is a less honorable approach, especially if the information given (that FF spas freeze in 3 hrs) is misinformation.

[rottweiler]

On my first Sundance hot tub, I went 1 1/2 weeks in freezing temperatures before it was down to 52 degrees from 104.  Mine had foam from the shell to the cabinet.  How in the world can a spa without that kind of foam not freeze quickly?  That sounds like a load of ..... I can only compare it to my house.  I had blown in cellulose and it is from the exterior foam board to the dry wall.  Now my neighbor has regular insulation.  My house is 25% bigger and my bills are much lower than his.  If you don't have good insulation on a tub and it isn't filled in foam then I would worry!  They must have quite a story convincing people that a little foam goes a long way.  Logic tells you that they are feeding you a really good story.  I prefer proof and I have had it proven many times.

[stl-rex]

On my first Sundance hot tub, I went 1 1/2 weeks in freezing temperatures before it was down to 52 degrees from 104.  Mine had foam from the shell to the cabinet.  How in the world can a spa without that kind of foam not freeze quickly?  That sounds like a load of ..... I can only compare it to my house.  I had blown in cellulose and it is from the exterior foam board to the dry wall.  Now my neighbor has regular insulation.  My house is 25% bigger and my bills are much lower than his.  If you don't have good insulation on a tub and it isn't filled in foam then I would worry!  They must have quite a story convincing people that a little foam goes a long way.  Logic tells you that they are feeding you a really good story.  I prefer proof and I have had it proven many times.

I suspect old Rotty is the Sundance dealer in St. Louis.  Notice it posts againt the St. Louis dealers site about how wonderful Mirage is (a Sundance dealer) and then makes a  1 1/2 week no freeze claim here while taking shots at Archrival Arctic.  I suppose when you thawed the pumps, they worked Ok eh?    By the way, how'd you like the little sign the Arctic folks put up at the show pointing to all those flapping hoses on their spas.  LOL  

[Hot Tub Guru]

Rex-

What photos are you talking about?  Should I contact Bob?  I will sure toss back a few for you in Mexico, as long as the place isen't trashed by the time I get there...

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[Tman122]

Here's a scare tactic for you. A FF tub dealer say's do not buy an Arctic Tub because if there is a power failure and it is down for an extended time an Arctics vessel will freeze faster and that is the most expensive part of the tub. In our FF tubs the equipment will only freeze as a safe gaurd and it can be easiely replaced. But when an Arctic freezes it will be to costly to repair.

[rottweiler]

I think it is stlrex that is in the ho tub business based on his lingo.  I bet he is the Arctic store owner or related to someone there.  No wonder he claims so much and has so much information.  You must have a cut throat business to toss so much information around like you do.
P.S. I actually do accounting work from home-sorry!

[Hot Tub Guru]

Rottweiler-

I sure hope Sti-rex isen't an actual dealer, otherwise he wasted my time.  I have spent a few hours e-mailing back and forth answers on the Arctic Spa.  I then called the owner of the Arctic Spa's St. Louis and made him promise to buy me a beer at our dealer seminar for helping him get a sale.  This guy Sti-rex is a VERY informed consumer, and is very proud of his purchase.  Bob (owner of Arctic Spas St Louis) told me he visited that store many times before making a purchase.  

I can forward the e-mails if you would like the proof.  

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[Mendocino101]

     The point is not how long the water inside the tub will go before it freezes,   FF  tub will retain water temp's for days or weeks sitting with no power!  
  The problem is that the equipment area is outside all the insulation,  with an uninsulated door between the outside and equipment.    What happens with FF design during power or eqiupment failure is that,  hours later the water can still be warm inside the tub while the   water sitting in the pumps and heater can begin to freeze.    
     Unless it is way way below freezing I have never seen or heared a tub freezing in 3 hours,   I would say 6 to 8 hours before freezing starts.    
    

This makes me wonder if you live in an area where freezing is of no issue. Than is it fair to assume that a FF will substantially out perform a TP design as they will hold water temp better and for hot weather climates this is the issue anyway not equipment freezing.

[Mendocino101]

Just to add .....I am a FF guy....But I do think when done right that TP can also work, I just think that there more benefits to FF but again both can work. I also think you have to reach more find the benefits of the TP design. I have never lived in a cold weather climate so I am not familiar with some of the things a person must do to prevent freezing in much of the home besides just the spa. Am I wrong to think that if you are worried a freeze when power is lost that you can throw a heavy blanket over the equipment  and also at what point does a TP lose its ability to keep the equipment area warm.

[HotTubMan]

at what point does a TP lose its ability to keep the equipment area warm.

That is a good question. It would appear that the Arctic guys have on the stats on freeze times for FF, I can only assume they have a freeze time for an Arctic. Is it 4 days? 1 week? 4 weeks?

[crapjack]

Think about pump or heater FAILURE, or GFCI trip NOT poweroutage...when its -20 C out, water freezes very fast like in the pump or heater or lines that have NO insulation protecting them.  You leave for work and all is well you come home from work 8-10 hrs later things will freeze in a FF spa--the tub water and shell will still be warm but your pump,heater and lines are all exposed to that COLD ambient outside temperature of -20 (you see the point).  Now you need a replacement part possibly pump or heater do you actually think you will get one that evening?Not likely, we are talking about a Spa Guy/salesman. I'll take my chances with TP tub(which will retain the heat from the hot  water protecting equipment) like an Arctic at least where i live.....where it does get belowing freezing!  

[tony]

Got news for you.  At -20 that hollow cavity won't be far behind the non insulated equipment bay as far as freezing goes...no matter what the Arctic people claim.