I'm done experimenting on my water!

[Vinny]

OK, I have now done "exhastive" experimenting on my tub and I'm tired of getting cloudy water for the sake of science.

At this point I realize:

- Using low doses of chlorine after soaking works for me if the PH is on the lower (7.2 - 7.4) side.  - I'm going back to 3 PPM after soaking so I never have to worry about it again!

- With my ozonator, a Del UV unit, running 24/7, I can go a whole 2 days before adding any chlorine vs running it for 8 hours a day and adding chlorine every other day. I'm going back to running the ozonator 8 hours a day and adding chlorine every other day. I do think that I will look into a different ozonator (at this point the Prozone PZ1) once my tub is out of warranty, I will then run the experiment again but I'm doubting I will find much difference. I am willing to try it since at around $100, it's not too big of an investment.

- I'm not going to use N2 or Frog. At $20 a pop, it's cheaper to dump the water every 3 months or so and reheat. Yes, the idea works but I don't think a mineral cartridge will do much with using the above routine with chlorine.

Finally, for all the newbies who ask for help, we non newbies (OK I'm still a little bit of a newbie) should realize that other than recommending a primary sanitizer - everything else may or may not work the way it does in our own tub.

[Repeat_Offender]

The overwhelming majority of posts and threads on this website concern water chemistry or maintenance. This, above all else, I find the most exassperating for first time spa owners, myself included. If I have one complaint about the failure of disclosure from all the salespeople I have encountered it is that they intentionally, in my opinion,  neglect to mention the time and effort necessary to properly maintain your water. Too much time spent on waterfalls and LED lighting and all the other nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with clean, safe, sanitized water.These are NOT small investments, yet more times than not we are forced to seek out websites like this one, or spend many hours experimenting as Vinny did, in search for the one thing that is taken for granted on the showroom floor. I'm willing to bet that a lot of salespeople don't know the first thing about water chemistry and that those who do have been forced to learn it on their own due to the high number of customer complaints after taking delivery of their spas. Do manufacturers train their dealers on this critical subject? And if so, why isn't this information passed along at the point of sale?

[Garyjr]

Vinny,

As always, thanks for your great feedback.

Repeat,

I have to somewhat disagree with what you are saying.  At least in my personal experience, my dealer has been very knowledgeable and forthcoming with any question I have had, including water chemistry.  Grant it, they did not dwell on the details like sometimes happens in groups like this, but they did provide me with all of the necessary information to safely set-up and maintain my tub.  I think most of us who frequent groups like this do so to gain additional knowledge.  Personally for me,  it is to learn and share stories with people who have a deeper interest on the how's and why's than the average consumer.  My theory is that most consumers are simply not interested in making sure their ph is exact or that their FC is maintained at a specific desired level.  For those of us who are, luckily groups like this exist. I would think that although the dealers #1 objective is to sell hot tubs and chemicals, the majority of them have and will share their knowledge with a potential consumer.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that rarely does a customer come in the store asking questions like we see posted in this group.  It is not until after we have a tub that these sort of question arise.

I am not trying to start any flames for or against anyone.  Just stating my 2C.

[Vinny]

Repeat_Offender,

I want to say that I experimented on my tub because of all the positive things people say about ozone, how little chlorine they use and about mineral sticks. My personal water care experience is that I owned a pool for 4 years before buying a spa and I will say that my spa is definately more fussy than my pool! I could have stuck to the tried and tested formula of 3 PPM dichlor before soak and add some every day but to me it's overkill ... there are some manufacturers and people that swear that you don't need sanitizer in the tub and I will ALWAYS argue against this. Anyone who says this is just speading fertilizer!!    

My background is that I repair medical equipment for a living, been doing it for 21 years and have (had) 3 years into an E.E. degree.  I need to know a lot about different areas while doing my job and how to interpet things it if I don't. I am also somewhat of a information geek - sometimes people wonder how I have the info that I have ... OK this is the extent of my "bragging".

I don't know which chems your using but chlorine (dichlor) for me is extremely easy. I come to this forum and go to Doc's to try to help people with their water chemistry issues. I don't know everything (although my wife will claim I act as though I do ) but will put my $0.02 in in case what I said helps. The problem as I see it is that EVERYONE has an opinion (including myself) and it gets in the way at times at providing accurate information. The only thing I will say is to read the Vermonter's and Northman's info on Doc's site and follow these - you should have great results

If you read my posts and wonder where I'm coming from - this is it: N2 is a placebo IMO that wastes your money and IF it provides anything, it's minimal. Ozone is oversold and it may provide something but I personallly think that people think it's a miracle. If using ozone gives you 2 days of not treating a tub vs every other day - big deal. Drewstar swears that he gets 4 or more days with his ozonator and sledjunkie swears he gets 4 or more days without his ... conflicting results. I don't believe in dumping baking soda into a body of water just to reduce it to get the proper PH and alkalinity - IMO worry about the PH first and then worry about alkalinity if PH bounces. I believe in calcium in the tub - it costs so little I like to have "balanced water". AND finally I like the Taylor K-2005 kit - it does everything that you need and helps you in adjusting the water - I use it in my pool and tub.

As far as dealers, I sometimes wonder this myself about their knowledge - ALWAYS ask a tech  8-) or at least a salesman who was one. To give credit to some that are here, they will quickly say they don't know. To put a discredit to some that are here - they are spitting out company quotations.  Then there's the ones who really know. I have my own "trust" and "don't trust" list - you need your own. I have asked them questions when I ran into trouble.

I'm sorry that you have a high fustration level. If you have questions, you can PM me and I will try to help. As I said, I'm not in the business and I don't know it all but will try to help.

Vinny

[In Canada eh]

Hey Vinny,

   If you are truly done experimenting on your water( I doubt you are though, cause the itch will come back) I think all of us here owe you a very large THANK YOU!   You have allowed yourself to be a guinea pig for the sake of a bunch of less experienced people and your information has always proved to be valuable.

                                                                              Once again thank you

[Vinny]

Hey Vinny,

   If you are truly done experimenting on your water( I doubt you are though, cause the itch will come back) I think all of us here owe you a very large THANK YOU!   You have allowed yourself to be a guinea pig for the sake of a bunch of less experienced people and your information has always proved to be valuable.

                                                                              Once again thank you

OK, OK ... I'm done for now!

Oh, You're Welcome!!!!

[In Canada eh]

OK, OK ... I'm done for now!

Thats better!

[Repeat_Offender]

Vinny,

It's not so much frustration on my part as it is reading about everyones experiences and how they differ. It sounds like they were just left to fend for themselves or not given the resources to inform themselves. I too am a bit of an information junkie, that's how I stumbled across this site. As for my spa I have little or no issues maintaining the water. I use Bromine. Why? for no other reason than that is what the start up tech put in when he instructed me about tha care of my spa. I use the four color test strips to check for Bromine, hardness, total alkalynity, and PH. I've had my spa for 2 months now and have had to do very little to keep the readings good with the exception of adding a little PH+. I also add a few ounces of spa shock once a week. I've never heard of dichlor or spafrogs or N2 or a lot of the other treatments that the majority of people here use. Makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong. My water is clean and clear with no odors, and feels soft, so I'm going to continue on this path. You certainly sound very knowledgible to me, and I appreciate your input as I have learned a lot since coming here.

[Vinny]

You're not doing anything wrong as it's working! When I first started to look at spas I was going to use bromine but after reading Vermonter's and Northman's info and the fact my tub would need a floater, I decided to use dichlor. Heck, I was going to use Cal Hypo until I found out it was a no no!

My dealer originally instructed me to use Nature 2 (N2), 8 hours of ozone and use an enhanced shock once a week. I asked her if her customers really have success with it and she said "YES!"; I don't see how and based on my tub it wouldn't work for me.

My water is H2O and so is yours but I think the difference is the other stuff that's in its make up and this makes a certain recipe work for you and not for me.

I'm glad to see it's going good for you!

[Mendocino101]

I think it is reasonable to understand that what works for one person may not be the same for another. In following the thread about this and ozone and following the feedback from our customers. I have found that with our line Marquis and the ozone unit that they use. Ozone does help and when it fails there a tangible difference in water quality. We let people know what it takes to keep your water clean and safe. I think the single biggest problem for most folks is not being consistent with their water care. If you get into a regular routine and will test your water at least once a week and make your needed adjustments in most cases you will be fine. If you are using a teaspoon or 2 after use of course you need to keep with this also.

[Vinny]

Mendo,

What you said is important. I have said in other posts Del seems to have a good marketing scheme but it doesn't produce a lot of ozone. Will I get better results from the Prozone unit? Who knows.  The reason for the experiment was because of the positive info that was around about ozone. My stance on ozone has softened a bit.  I used to think it was nonsense based on what I found about water treatment ozone generators ... of course when I do replace it and if nothing changes ...  

And consistency is the key also. While experimenting I was pushing the envelope to see what would happen by doing this or that. I ran many months doing my routine of ozone 8 hours a day, dichlor after soaking and 1 teaspoon every other day if I didn't soak.

[Repeat_Offender]

I have a friend who's had a spa for 5 years now and he uses nothing but an ozonator. No sanitizers with the exception of a scoop of shock every two weeks. Now I don't buy all of the wonderful claims that ozononator manufacturers make but this sounds dangerous to me. Do I think it has value? all of the scientific evidence I've seen says yes. Would I leave this as the sole way of sanitizing? Never. I have my spa programmed for filtration and ozone for 2-8 hour periods per day, and it seems to work for the amount of use my spa gets.

[gturn]

OZONE.  Ozone kills bacteria, so if your tub has a ozonator and produces some ozone it should be killing some of the bacteria, thus to maintain the proper level of chemicals you should not have to use as many chemicals as you would have to use without the ozonator.  Some companies also claim you can maintain a lower level of chemicals and save even more, but there are a lot of folks out there that do not agree that this is a good idea.

My tub has a 24 hour circulation pump and the ozonator runs all the time.  I use bromine tablets in a floater and have it set to maintain 3 ppm, it doesn't take much about 3 marks on my floater.  I don't have to do anything else except a weekly non-clorine shock.  I have been testing 2-3 times per week and everything is staying good and the water is clear.  I use bromine only because it seems easier to me to just use the floater than to put stuff in after each use.  My sister uses clorine in hers and likes it because it is a little cheaper.  

When I fill my tub I have to use other chemicals to get everything balanced, but once balanced everything stays good for me.  When I fill I add the sodium bromide base, the metal gone, adjust my ph, and adjust my calcium (I have to use calcium up) After this setup, I have not had to do anything else to maintain my levels except for keeping my bromine floater full of tablets and do my weekly shock.  I have heard from others that with the clorine they have had to keep adjusting the ph, and some of the other levels, have others had that experience.  Maybe it is just my water that stays constant.

Next water change I may try the clorine to see if I like it better, but I have not been disapointed with the bromine, it seems to be easy and keeps the water clean.  I understand you can not change from bromine to clorine without a water change, but that you can change from clorine to bromine without a water change, has anyone tried that?

[sledjunkie]

For what it's worth I've unplugged/disconnected my ozonator. I feel I don't need it, and don't want to risk shortening the life of my pillows or cover. I'm not sure there is any scientific evidence proving ozone will shorten the life of pillows or your cover, but I don't want to risk it, considering I found the ozone to make no difference for my tub and situation.
I use enough dichlor so that I feel comfortable my water is bacteria/trouble free.

I don't have that propure chamber upgrade, maybe that's why..

I have no trouble in my maintenance program keeping my water fresh and clear. I've never seen cloudy water...

So it will remain disconnected..

[Vinny]

OZONE.  Ozone kills bacteria, so if your tub has a ozonator and produces some ozone it should be killing some of the bacteria, thus to maintain the proper level of chemicals you should not have to use as many chemicals as you would have to use without the ozonator.  Some companies also claim you can maintain a lower level of chemicals and save even more, but there are a lot of folks out there that do not agree that this is a good idea.

My tub has a 24 hour circulation pump and the ozonator runs all the time.  I use bromine tablets in a floater and have it set to maintain 3 ppm, it doesn't take much about 3 marks on my floater.  I don't have to do anything else except a weekly non-clorine shock.  I have been testing 2-3 times per week and everything is staying good and the water is clear.  I use bromine only because it seems easier to me to just use the floater than to put stuff in after each use.  My sister uses clorine in hers and likes it because it is a little cheaper.  

When I fill my tub I have to use other chemicals to get everything balanced, but once balanced everything stays good for me.  When I fill I add the sodium bromide base, the metal gone, adjust my ph, and adjust my calcium (I have to use calcium up) After this setup, I have not had to do anything else to maintain my levels except for keeping my bromine floater full of tablets and do my weekly shock.  I have heard from others that with the clorine they have had to keep adjusting the ph, and some of the other levels, have others had that experience.  Maybe it is just my water that stays constant.

Next water change I may try the clorine to see if I like it better, but I have not been disapointed with the bromine, it seems to be easy and keeps the water clean.  I understand you can not change from bromine to clorine without a water change, but that you can change from clorine to bromine without a water change, has anyone tried that?

Ozone does work in water treatment plants with 100% O2 and sophisticated instruments, we breathe 21% 02. I saw a program on the History Channel about bottled water and they use a 40' tall cylinder for ozone absorbtion (a little more  complicated than that though). The problem with spas and pools is that a question to ask is how much is the ozonator producing? The answer may surprise most people - not much depending on the ozonator.

I believe you're correct in that some ozone will kill some bacteria but IMO it has to bump into the bacteria and the only real place for that to happen is the mazzi injector and to a lesser extent the mixing area. So an ozonator producing minimal ozone will have very little effect.

The problem I see with using too little sanitizer is at what point does a vessel of water get over run with nasties by using too little. I have witnessed both in my pool and spa a large chlorine demand. In my pool, I once poured in 12 PPM to shock in the evening and there was no chlorine by morning and in the tub I put in 3 PPM and I saw the same reaction. Thankfully I didn't try to use either one at the time.