In "shock" from electrical quote.

[drewstar]

Or if the pool is running, or your wife turns on the hair dryer, or if you have electric heat, or the microwave is going, or.....

Or you have a hot tub that runs it pumps on certain predetermend schedules...not just when you are using it.

Upgrade if you can.  8-)

[Brewman]

For sure I'd get a couple bids, if possible, just to see if the fist one wasn't too far out of line.  It might not be, depending on how busy the tradespeople are in your area.
 If they have all the work that they want, they have no need to bid low.  
When we built our current house, there was a large building boom, and getting a drywall crew was very difficult, and very expensive.  
 For that summer you did it on the drywallers terms, or you did it yourself.
Maybe that's happening in your area with electricians.  

Sometimes it's hard just getting someone to show up to do a bid.  Let alone a few.

[ZzTop]

My tub project is nearing completion. The electrician ( a friend of a friend, a pro) came in with a quote today. Roughly, 1100, about 2/3 of which is for supplies. I know this is at the upper end, but here in southwestern Connecticut that doesn't suprise me. HOWEVER..he feels I'm at the limit of my current service. It's 100 amp with hot water heater, stove, AC, plus all the usual stuff. He feels we should upgrade to 200 amp. Total tab roughly 2500. I'm speechless and confused. Some thoughts from the think tank here might help. Thanx

This an issue that is not often talked about.

Many Homes still use 100 amp service.

If you choose a Hot tub with one jet pump rather than two or more chances are you will not have a problem with a 100 Amp service.

If you choose a tub with multiple pumps, excluding a circ pump you will need a 200 amp service.

Dealers should always ask this question, that is,  what size electrical service do you have BEFORE selling anyone a hot tub.

[Brewman]

What they're supposed to do is perform a demand load calculation.  Take into account many factors, and rates them.  If the caluclated (not necessarily actual, which is pretty impossible to predict) load is a certain amperage, an upgrade is recommended.  The factors for this calculation can be performed by a homeowner who has the rules and is willing to do some basic math.  
 It'll at least get you in the ballpark.

In a small home, with a light electrical load, 100 amp service will be fine.  But add in central A/C, an electric water heater, an electric dryer, electric range, dishwasher, and lots of new finished square footage, and 100 amp may be too small.
Demand load calc. gives you the guidelines.

The Green Acres analagy was great- just make sure you turn off the a/c, shut off the water heater, don't use the dishwasher, whenever you use the spa, and that 60 amps. will suit you just fine.

[autoplay]

When we had our spa electric hooked-up....I had an electrician friend do the work.  He's a "master" electrician,union trained etc.  We barter with each other over the years,and do things for each other at about cost.

We paid 500 bucks,for labor and material.  He installed a new sun-panel....checked existing wiring in the house,and made things right. He installed a breaker for the spa,and a few other household breakers. He ran almost 60' of number 6 wire....and ran the wire from the spa panel box.

He even came out the day of the install of the tub,and hooked it up. The people delivering the spa,wanted to hire him on the spot lol.

I'm adding a pic,so you can see what my electrician bud did. Possibly it's an option for you,and will save you a few bucks...verses replacing a 100 amp service with a 200 amp service etc.

I would guess for labor and materials etc,in my area,I could have paid 1500-2000 bucks.  Helps havin friends

[hottub.pool_boy]

Futt,
   I'm in Ct with you. If you're going with a 50amp spa, go for the upgrade. In your area, you'll get the return on the investment. Did the place you're buying the spa ask you about your electrical service? and if it was adaquet? We've switch some folk to 110v Sovereigns, Prodigy models because of the service upgrade cost and issue. 110v, 20amp circuit can be installed for about $200.00. I'm sure some critics will say 110v spa won't work, but we have thousands of them in the field that are upwards of 25 years old. Good luck. Let us know how it works out for you.

[pg_rider]

So how do I know if my house is wired for 100 amps or 200?  It's only a year old; do most new houses these days get wired for 200 amps?

[hottub.pool_boy]

pg, see autoplay's picture? the open grey cabinet has a breaker in the middle close to the top. on the handle of the breaker is the AMP. 100- 200- 400, check yours.

[pg_rider]

Actually, I think I just answered my own question.  After actually LOOKING at my main panel (doh!), I see that the main breaker says 150 amp.  I'm assuming that's for the entire house, and therefore I should have no problem putting in a 240 volt/60 amp line for the tub?

[Cola]

Too many people here like to offer opinions with little or no facts.  I am an industrial electrician and I design and build electrical panels for CNC cutting machinery.  When I size the main feed for a machine, I don't add up all of the motor rated currents (amps), I calculate the load based on the worse case senario of equipment that could be running at one time.  I may have a spindle (cutting) motor that is rated 37 kW and three servo (axis) motors that are rated at 12 kW each.  Even though this represents a 73 kW load, I don't need a 73 kW drive because when I am taking a heavy cut, my servo load is likely in the 5 kW total range with the spindle at about 30 kW.
How does this translate to your house?
As Vinny likes to point out, and he is right, any circuit is by code supposed to be loaded to no more that 80% continuous load.  A hot tub is not a continuous load, a stove is not a continuous load.  An air conditioner on a hot day is.

So here we go
Let's work backwards here
If you pay $400.00 on a bad month for electricity and your rate is 12 cents per kWh, your average load for the month is 17.5 amps at 240 VAC with a 9% line loss penalty from the service provider factored in.

Since most of us at this rate (12 cents) are likely at $200.00 or less average per month, well, you do the math.

Your 60 amp tub draws about 25 amps when heating and about 46 amps with two pumps and heat on.

Your oven draws continuous for about ten minutes when warming up and intermittent after that.

The drier is continuous at first then cycles on off as the cycles works near the end.

Hot water heater is a short cycle unless you just took a shower

By the way Vinny
Your 30 amp AC unit draws about 12 amps
Your 50 amp tub draws 40 amps (with pumps and heat)
Your 30 amp stove draws about 15 amps when warming up the oven, then it cycles probably averaging about 3 amps at that point.

Your old 100 main breaker may have been 100% rated as the mains often are.

The trip on a 100 amp breaker is around 20 minutes at 118 amps or 100 amps continuous.  The wire feeding your house might get warm for this short period of time but it would take a much higher and longer continuous load to melt the minimum 75 deg celcius wire.

My 100 main breaker is designed to prevent a fire by tripping with an over current condition as specified by CSA / UL.  It is not an oversized light switch

If I had a bigger house, with a large in ground pool and two Kitchens and one day my main 100 amp breaker tripped, I would be a bit more careful with what I was running at the same time.  If it was tripping often with normal electrical usage, then I would consider an upgrade.

The breaker is safe as it stands.

Oh and by the way, if you have gas available, a new gas drier and hot water heater are cheaper to ipurchase and install than an electrical upgrade and they are cheaper to run and yes, you would be supporting a plumber and not a fellow electrician.

To go further, if I got talked into something that I may have not needed, I would NOT try to talk you into the same damn thing - "OH please come bend over like I did" - I think not.

Steve "I know what I am fricking talking about because I do this for a living and you don't" Colasanti
Good day

[Vinny]

Cola,

I know you as well as I do windsurfdog, not too well - he was (is) your equivilent and has differing opinion than you - and I guess like everything else in the hot tub world EVERYTHING is based on opinion.

It's a little scarey to me that your saying that's OK to over tax a circuit. You actually want a homeowner to put 118% load onto their circuit? - They don't have the knowledge that you do.

You say my tub draws 40 amps, I measured 26 or something like that max. But the example you gave me with just 3 appliances was already at 67 amps - yes for a short period of time. Can the circuit hold more? Sure it can but as you heat the breakers they will start to have problems. The hospital that I work in does heat scans on all their panels (probably over 100 panels in all the facility) and it's amazing what a slightly loose connection will do to a breaker.

I have talked to other electricians and they don't understand where you're coming from. I work with both Union and non-union electricians and they insist that adding a tub will put too much strain on a 100 amp circuit.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have talked it over with people who f***ing know what their talking about too! Maybe in your situation since you know what your doing you can run the risk... I don't think the average homeowner can.

[Cola]

Just to be clear Vinny, I don't recommend that anyone loads their system to 118%.  The breaker is there to protect the wires ahead of it.  The bus bars in the panel will carry an even higher load.  As I said, if you install the tub and your breaker does not trip under normal conditions, then why upgrade?

It is easy enough to have your electrician put his clamp on meter on the incomming circuit to check the load.  The components in the electrical system are designed to handle intermittent peak loads otherwise they would be fast acting and trip instantly when you go above the rated current.

To consider spending big bucks for an upgrade because your wife might be baking cookies, well if it might be a problem, then why not turn off a jet for ten minutes during the warm up of the oven.

In our industrial environments, we encourage our customers to learn to conserve.  We recently converted a facility to new T5 lighting that will save him $35000.00  per year and lessened his load enough that he did not have to upgrade his 3000 amp, 600V 3 phase service in anticipation of a new machine that is due to arrive soon.

On the other hand, we have recommended upgrade for other customers in advanced of new machines with large continuous loads when required in advance of the machines arrival.

Too many opinions here with no facts.

Bottom line
Install the damn tub
Yes tighten any existing lugs as I have stated in previous posts
turn on the AC and the oven, drier what ever else you plan on using while you are tubbing with all the jets on and heats on then do a load check.

Regarding a pool pump, consider installing a timer so that it runs at off peak times.
It will save you money and maybe an upgrade

Wake up guys
Steve

[Brewman]

Actually, I think I just answered my own question.  After actually LOOKING at my main panel (doh!), I see that the main breaker says 150 amp.  I'm assuming that's for the entire house, and therefore I should have no problem putting in a 240 volt/60 amp line for the tub?

 Yes, you have 150 amp service.  And I'd guess that you're likely fine hooking up that spa, unless you have an all electric setup or something.  Demand load calculation would give you a ballpark of what your current demand is.

[windsurfdog]

Just to be clear Vinny, I don't recommend that anyone loads their system to 118%.  The breaker is there to protect the wires ahead of it.  The bus bars in the panel will carry an even higher load.  As I said, if you install the tub and your breaker does not trip under normal conditions, then why upgrade?

It is easy enough to have your electrician put his clamp on meter on the incomming circuit to check the load.  The components in the electrical system are designed to handle intermittent peak loads otherwise they would be fast acting and trip instantly when you go above the rated current.

To consider spending big bucks for an upgrade because your wife might be baking cookies, well if it might be a problem, then why not turn off a jet for ten minutes during the warm up of the oven.

In our industrial environments, we encourage our customers to learn to conserve.  We recently converted a facility to new T5 lighting that will save him $35000.00  per year and lessened his load enough that he did not have to upgrade his 3000 amp, 600V 3 phase service in anticipation of a new machine that is due to arrive soon.

On the other hand, we have recommended upgrade for other customers in advanced of new machines with large continuous loads when required in advance of the machines arrival.

Too many opinions here with no facts.

Bottom line
Install the damn tub
Yes tighten any existing lugs as I have stated in previous posts
turn on the AC and the oven, drier what ever else you plan on using while you are tubbing with all the jets on and heats on then do a load check.

Regarding a pool pump, consider installing a timer so that it runs at off peak times.
It will save you money and maybe an upgrade

Wake up guys
Steve

Steve,
In this quoted post, you make some very valid points...and most are exactly what I was saying in my post including the ability of the tub to operate on the existing service, the possible necessity of occasionally having to "Green Acres" the system (didn't I mention Thanksgiving and Christmas?), and the possiblity of replacing gas appliances to lower electrical load.  The only difference between your post and mine is our differing opinions regarding whether the upgrade should be done or not AND the attitude in which you presented your opinions.  I take offense at those remarks which belittle my opinions (and those of others as well) and my electrical knowledge.  I acknowledge your expertise...I also acknowledge your snotty attitude.

[thearm]

mcrofutt,
I run my tub on 100 amp service with no problem. However I don't have a electric hot water heater which makes room for my hot tub. If a electrican suggested upgrade to a 200 amp service a I would heed the advise. Many have already chimed in on both sides of the topic with many good points for each direction. If you are at or near your limit with 100 amp which it sounds like your are go ahead and upgrade. Last thing you need is to be resetting breakers while trying to enjoy a nice soak. Think about this, are you going to be using less or more electric devices in the  future. EG: TV'S, MP3 players, computers, nintendo, hair dryers, electric blankets, space heaters, motor on furnace, ceiling fans, freezers, garage door openers, power tools, compressors, electric mixers when cooking. All things that need to be considered. Look at it as cheap insurance and well worth it for peace of mind. In my mind well worth the investment. Also most if not all new home construction is spec in with 200 amp service. Will you have a problem with 100 amp? Nobody knows for sure but do you want to take that chance? It is your call but I would err on the safety side.
Engineer, Fireman, EMT, Best of all Husband + Father