In "shock" from electrical quote.

[mcrofutt]

My tub project is nearing completion. The electrician ( a friend of a friend, a pro) came in with a quote today. Roughly, 1100, about 2/3 of which is for supplies. I know this is at the upper end, but here in southwestern Connecticut that doesn't suprise me. HOWEVER..he feels I'm at the limit of my current service. It's 100 amp with hot water heater, stove, AC, plus all the usual stuff. He feels we should upgrade to 200 amp. Total tab roughly 2500. I'm speechless and confused. Some thoughts from the think tank here might help. Thanx

[Tatooed_Lady]

southeastern wisconsin here. our bill was $600, we're at the upper limit on a 100amp service as well. we promised to "be good" and not run TOO much stuff at once to keep from popping circuits. so far, so good. I still want to upgrade to 200 amp service, but THAT will run roughly $1k more..... DOH!

[Vinny]

Some people are running their tubs on 100 amp service but I upgraded my service to 200 Amps.

I wanted the added security (and it might have been possible that the township might have rejected plan - I don't know) of being able to have whatever might be running without any problems.

The NEC code has limitations on how much a circuit, any circuit, can handle and that's 80% of stated capacity. So 100 Amps should only handle 80 Amps max, it certainly can handle more but as a breaker or circuit handles more current the breaker can get warm or hot - heat damages the breaker over a long time.

$1100 for the job is a great price, BTW.

[Garyjr]

I am currently in the process of having my 125 amp service upgraded to 200 amp.  I bought all of the materials: $100 for the breaker box and 6 breaker, and another $40.00 for the service entry wire.  I purposely bought a new box that used the same breakers as my old to save some money.  The electrician who is doing the job does alot of electrical work for me at work so he is pulling the permit (required in my county) and swapping the boxes out for $200.00.  This is extremely cheap, and the reason he is doing it is we spend 10's of thousands annually with his company at work, but I would think you could shop around and get it all done for less $$.  He said that he should have it completed in about 4 hours.

Jr

[Vinny]

Depending on where you live a service upgrade can be costly. I got quotes from electricians starting at $1500 up to $1950 and I had a friend who I work with do it for $1,100. For me it was more than 4 hours ... almost a day and a half and I was helping him out (maybe that was the problem).

If you can get it cheaper, that's great but unfortunately I think most of us are stuck paying for an electrician and having it done correctly. They are out there to make a buck like the rest of us.

[ramdom]

Fair price for the 100amp service. If you do it "under the table" we got a quote of $500 for the tub hook-up but the GFCI we already had with the tub package. The heavy duty wire is apparently expensive. We had to go with the upgrade from fuses to breakers. But we stayed at the 100amp as the load survey looked reasonable. (150amp panels also exist - maybe this would be a good cost compromise?) 200amps is a lot of juice and some say overkill, but you do have the AC...

We had the option to go with the 200amp service too, but declined because of the extra thousand dollars+ on the quote. We were blown away by the hidden cost also and paid $1200 including taxes for everything above board. It was initially $1400 but they screwed something up big time and i demanded a discount. Now i sometimes wish we did go 200amp as there is a small visible surge with our interior lights on when some of the tub function activate - when the tub pumps start or the filter cycle begins to operate. A half flicker that catches the eye. Is that miniscule visual reminder of your load limit worth the extra thou or so? So maybe we should have gone that extra mile as it does add value to your home in the long run. I dunno.

We're going to take some of the load off with a Gas Hot Water Heater instead of the current electrical one and set up outsides lines for drying clothes, which we don't have now with the new house and tub. Plus it looks like the dishwasher that came with the house is 15 - 20 years old and is probably not very energy efficient. Things like that.

All these things add up - and it is a shock. One of, if not the most (purposely?) overlooked expenses and considerations regarding a new hot tub is this electrical work and compatibility w/ amperage issue. One does get a lot of placations from the dealer to get the sale and we certainly had neglect regarding many aspects of the electrical installation. And now here you are in awe and probably miffed big time. I don't blame you.

On the brightside I have no regrets about our hot tub, it's cost or the model we purchased. It simply is heavenly and worth every penny to have your own private spa at your every whim, in your own backyard. Not much compares (that is legal).

(my personal opinion? get the 200amp, get it done, watch the guys closely for errors, get an inspection, have the load room and complete your set-up. It's a bitter pill but far easier to swallow, if you even remember taking it: but when your staring at the stars in your birthday suit as you are pummelled and massaged w/ pumps and crystal clear water, it'll be the farthest thing from your mind.)

Good luck!

[Cola]

Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning

it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician

[In Canada eh]

Cola/Steve

          Finally a bit of logic

          There is no way you could exceed the 80% figure of a 100 amp breaker with out doing it intentionally

          Terry
          Industrial Maintenance Mechanic

[countryboy]

Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning

it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician

This is not true all the time. I usually throw in the laundry and dishes when I'm in the tub. And in the summer some times my A/C comes on while in the tub. The wife has even thrown in a batch of cookies while in the tub. Granted this might not be all the time but it does happen.

[Vinny]

Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning

it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician

Cola &  In_Canada_eh,

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Given a person's lifestyle, you can't say if it wouldn't happen. It may not but it may.

I have had my household of 4 with 2 sons have all the above on at the same time unintentionally. BTW, my house is mostly gas.

Someone showers - hot water heater kicks in and we're cooking something in the oven during the summer with the central AC on and my oldest needs his pants dried ... doesn't happen often but it does.

My new AC unit is on a 30 amp circuit, tub is on 50 amp, converted my house to a gas dryer so I don't know what an electric dryer draws - I'll use 30 amp circuit, I'll also use 30 amp for both water heater and oven for a total of 60 amps.

Adding them together - 30+50+30+60 = 170 amps in circuits. That's not including lights, blow dryers, vacuums and any other electrical or electronic devices that may be running, although it probably is minimal amp draw for these. Now I will conceede that the current draw in the actual circuit IS a lot lower than the actual circuits themselves. My tub has a draw of 28 amps, I haven't measured my AC unit and since I don't have those other big electical appliances, I can't talk intelegently about them at all.

But I think the average homeowner can possibly tax their circuits and it becomes really dangerous - $1100 is nothing to losing a home or anything else IMO. I've said it before, most engineers will over build systems to keep safety as a constant factor.

[Brewman]

Sounds like this one is right on the edge.  It's your house, your money, your call on the upgrade.  Your spa's heater, which is what draws all the power to be concerned about, comes on whenever the spa call for it.  You really can't predict when this will happen.  But you're the one shucking out (or not) the bucks, and you have to live with whatever happens.  It's pretty easy to tell someone else how to spend their money, it's quite another to make that decision for yourself.
 Personally, I'd be inclined to pay for the upgrade- you'll get extra capacity for anything you may want to do in the future- a few years from now if you have to do this for some unknown reson it will likely cost more anyway.
 And if you ever sell the place, having the extra capacity will be a nice selling point.

Makes me glad I paid the builder about $70 at the time the house was built to upgrade to 200 amp service.  
    
 I

[jfish63]

2,500 is on the high side shop around for a better price. Stay with a licensed electrician.

[windsurfdog]

Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning

it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician

Just like on Green Acres!  Make sure to turn off #3 if you run #1 & #4 but leave #3 on if you run #4 & #6 but never, AND I REPEAT NEVER, run #6 and #1.  Just climb the telephone pole and give me a call should problems arise....or just upgrade to 200 amps and be done with it.

Seriously, I was a master electrician in a previous professional life and, yes, the tub could "live" on the 100 amp service but I do not recommend it.  Certainly with an all electric load (assuming this is indeed an all electric load), which may include resistance heating as well, the limits will be pushed with the addition of a tub.  BTW, the previous Green Acres remarks could very well happen on Thanksgiving or Christmas...think about it...

Or, convert to gas heating, water heating, cooking, clothes drying and the 100 amp should be just fine.

[drewstar]

$2500 sounds high. Does that include the tub's sub panel too? I'd get a few quotes. You can get away without having it in some circumstances, but now might be the time to bite the bullett and upgrade. You might be getting a better price for having him out there for the upgrade and tub, than if you were to do it individually. I don't think you'll regret it.

I can remember when my dad bought his 2nd house in 76. It had 60 amp service he thought would be fine.  Yea. sure.  Things sure have changed.

I was lucky. My house was orignally built in 82 with an in law apt  and has 2 panels for a total of 400 amps.  

[dkersten]

I upgraded my service a couple years ago during a basement renovation.  I had a 100 amp service coming in and a full box in my garage.  I added another 100 amp box downstairs and rewired everything down there to the new box, freeing up some circuits in the original box and even moving my AC 220v to the new box so I could wire my wood shop for 220 with the freed up circuit.

I had to have an electrician come in to do the 200 amp upgrade, but I told him up front I would provide the parts and he would just do labor and get the permit and arrange for the local electric company to disconnect/reconnect.

Here is what is involved in upgrading to 200 amp service:  You buy a new meter box, one with multiple breakers in it.  Your old meter box may not have any breakers in it, or may only have one main breaker.  You buy a 100 amp breaker for your existing box.  The electrician gets the permit, schedules the local utility company to disconnect.  They disconnect your service from the line, at which time the electrician removes the meter box (and meter) and installs the new one.  This might require a new mast if your electrical comes in from above, or new conduit if it comes in underground.  It will also require new wire from the meter box to the existing line from the utility company.  In my case it was 10 feet of 2" pipe for a mast, and 10 feet of larger gauge wire.  There were a few fittings I had to run and get for this as well.  Once the new meter box was connected to the old breaker box, and the new mast was up, and wire run from the new meter box to the top of the mast, the utility company was called again and later that day they reconnected power and installed the meter in the meter box.  An inspector was scheduled by the electrician as well and had to sign off on it before the utility company could come in and hook back up.

All told, the electrician bill was $600, which included the 10 feet of wire (actually 30 feet.. 3 10foot strands), permits, a few miscellaneous small parts, and all the scheduling with inspectors and utility companies.  I bought a 200 amp meter box at Home Depot for around $100, which was $40 below the electicians cost.  The meter box has 10 regular breakers, a main breaker, and 1 breaker slot that is not on the main breaker.  I had to buy a 200 amp main breaker and 2 100 amp breakers, which was about a hundred, and then a few miscellaneous fittings and such for the mast.  I also had all the stuff for the 100 amp box I put downstairs, but most people upgrading wont be doing that.

Bottom line is for less than $1000 I upgraded, and there would be very few cases where it should cost more than that.  Home depot buys those meter boxes in lots of a few hundred thousand at a time from Square D, and gets huge discounts.  There is no reason to buy the box and breakers from the electrician.  The only reason I even went with an electrician is because the permitting and scheduling with the utility company was more hassle than I was willing to deal with.  

If the new meter box has breaker slots, you can feed the hot tub off of those slots.  Most of the time the meter box is the better place to pull power from for an outdoor application since it is outside and the house box is usually inside.  Trenching or running conduit to the tub location is perhaps the hardest part of it all, and should be the one thing that determines the price of hookup from the electrician.  

Personally I cant see spending $2500 for the whole thing.. I would not spend more than $1500 if the service was being upgraded, and no more than $500 to have a gfci installed, unless it has to be trenched from the other side of the house..

As far as the load on the 100 amp box.. the only time you would have an issue is if you were STARTING the pumps on the tub while the AC was STARTING up and the hot water heater was running and the dryer was running and the oven was running, etc.. You run a 50 amp service to most hot tubs but thats because they will draw 40-45 amps during the couple seconds it takes to run a pump up to speed.  At max speed, most hot tubs wont draw more than 15-30 amps while running.  Same goes with AC and anything else with a motor.. they draw a lot when starting up but draw way less when running, even under load.  It would still be possible to have all the lights on in the house, a couple TV's, the washer and dryer running, the hot water heater on, and some stuff in the oven, the AC running on a hot day, and then fire up the hot tub pumps and have the main breaker go.. just dont go reset it if you are dripping wet..

Dave