Fiberglass backed shells

[Bonibelle]

Mention was made on another thread (by Gary) about spa shells that are fiberglass backed. So now I am curious .... It would obviously be more expensive to add fiberglass, so which tub brands do this? Is it purely a structural thing or are there other advantages to a fiberglass backing? Just wondering :-?

[Reese]

You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you.  I'm guessing this is another version of the FF/thermopane and bypass/no-bypass debates.  I imagine all tubs were fiberglass the old days, but with all the materials/construction techniques available today, it is probably more a marketing tool than anything.  I expect at least one mfg to state that their FF tubs are "so well supported you don't need costly and enviromentally unfriendly fiberglass", and another to use a "space-age material 100x stronger than fiberglass".    

[Gary]

You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you.  I'm guessing this is another version of the FF/thermopane and bypass/no-bypass debates.  I imagine all tubs were fiberglass the old days, but with all the materials/construction techniques available today, it is probably more a marketing tool than anything.  I expect at least one mfg to state that their FF tubs are "so well supported you don't need costly and enviromentally unfriendly fiberglass", and another to use a "space-age material 100x stronger than fiberglass".    

The only thing I sell is service!

The reasons some manufactures do not fiber-glass is for EPA standards in their area. Fiber-glassing is the best way to go. If you do not fiber-glass then you will have an piece of ABS co-extruded to the bottom on the shell and then high dense foam (5lb) is added for structural support. The biggest problem with this method is you cannot cover the entire shell, you have to leave open areas to drill for the jets. So if you are off a little you will have portions of the shell with no support. I have seen this on just about every brand that does it this way and when they crack you have a leaking spa.

With a fiber-glass spa if that shell cracks it is only an aesthetic problem nothing more.

Have you ever seen you push any brand of spa on this forum, let me answer for you. It is no. I only try to offer advice on what I know.

[Altazi]

Hello Gary,

Sounds reasonable.  It sounds like spas with fiberglass shells are superior to those with other types of construction.  This shopper wants to know which manufacturers use fiberglass, and those who do not.  Can you (and other posters) take a shot at a list here?

Thanks!

Altazi

[Spatech_tuo]

The biggest problem with this method is you cannot cover the entire shell, you have to leave open areas to drill for the jets. So if you are off a little you will have portions of the shell with no support. I have seen this on just about every brand that does it this way and when they crack you have a leaking spa.

I'm not sure where you've seen that because the proper way to do it is to drill the jet openings and install the jet wallfittings (with the backs masked off) before you spray the foam on. That way the entire shell does get covered and I'm sure they all use much denser foam than 5lb.

[Wisoki]

Off the top of my head HotSpring Spas and Dimension one are thermoplastic spa shells reinforced with coextruded ABS backing. Then there are the rotational molded spas, XSpa, Freeflow and some I'm sure I've never heard of. Virtually all other spas use the fiberglass method. You will find longer structural warranties on fiberglass spas. Granted, the structure rarely fails on any spa, however, we all talk about it in our presentations when a customer asks about warranty, so it aparently has some meaning.

[Reese]

You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you.

The only thing I sell is service!

Have you ever seen you push any brand of spa on this forum, let me answer for you. It is no. I only try to offer advice on what I know.

Sorry that I lumped you in with the bozos that use every consumer's question to position their brand as superior.  It's just that whenever I see statement like "... is the only way to go" without discussing pros and cons fairly, I assume they are trying to sell something.  It is so hard for a consumer to sort out which is important, which is just theoretically better, but practically unimportant--or worse yet, marketing fluff.  IMO, there is more than one way to construct a good performing, long lasting tub.  

Now back to trying to understand if this is important to a consumer:  Given your strong support of fiberglass, is it fair to assume that you see a lot more shell failures on HS and D1 spas than other major brands?  Would you recommend an off-brand fiberglass spa over HS/D1?

[Gary]

You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you.

The only thing I sell is service!

Have you ever seen you push any brand of spa on this forum, let me answer for you. It is no. I only try to offer advice on what I know.

Sorry that I lumped you in with the bozos that use every consumer's question to position their brand as superior.  It's just that whenever I see statement like "... is the only way to go" without discussing pros and cons fairly, I assume they are trying to sell something.  It is so hard for a consumer to sort out which is important, which is just theoretically better, but practically unimportant--or worse yet, marketing fluff.  IMO, there is more than one way to construct a good performing, long lasting tub.  

Now back to trying to understand if this is important to a consumer:  Given your strong support of fiberglass, is it fair to assume that you see a lot more shell failures on HS and D1 spas than other major brands?  Would you recommend an off-brand fiberglass spa over HS/D1?

I do see more cracks (about 2 to 1) with non-fiber-glass spas, but the difference is when the non-fiberglass cracks the spa leaks. This is a much more costly repair than fixing a cracked fiber-glass spa, as the fiber-glass one will only be an aesthetic issue fixed from the front side.

[Altazi]

Well, I am a consumer (who is in the process of shopping for a spa) and it's important to ME!  This is a confusing arena for a shopper, and I am looking for any product differentiators I can find.  I know about the importance of strong local dealer support, good warranty, good wet-test, etc., but I would also like to know that the basic design, structure, and components in the spa are first-rate.

A good warranty is nice, but I'd rather not need to USE it.  A good dealer is important, but I'd rather be hitting him up for chemicals, etc., than repairs.

Regards,

Altazi

[Bonibelle]

Oh Gary, I'm sorry I asked!  I just didn't remember any sales people every presenting this as an aspect to consider. So I have no idea about my tub...and at this point I don't really even want to know....but maybe this could help others make a decision.

[Reese]

Well, I am a consumer (who is in the process of shopping for a spa) and it's important to ME!  This is a confusing arena for a shopper, and I am looking for any product differentiators I can find.  

With all due respect, how will you know which of these "differentiators" are important in a practical sense?:-?  Your own product testing lab?  A vast personal knowledge of hot-tub components and construction techniques?  The opinion of a tech or salesperson?  Your EE background?  Common sense? A coin flip?  Some of the experts on this forum have been in the industry for years, and they can't agree on what consitutes the "best hot-tub."

My point was that you have to take each statement made here and in salesrooms of "_____ is the only way to go" --evaluate it , challenge it, and in the end, disregard most of them.8-)  All these "differentiators" are what make the arena confusing.  That is why I am so quick (too quick, in this case ) to object to obvious sales posts.  As I said before, IMO there is more than one way to make a reliable high quality spa, and I'll add that it is relatively easy to spot the ones that are not well made (little/no insulation, sloppy construction, cheap components, etc).  

In this example, while Gary makes a compelling case for fiberglass, I'm sure one of the HS folks could make a good case for the superiority of co-extruded, multiple density foam supported shells.  If you shop long enough, you will find a "Company B" that has very good reasons why what "Company A" says is a strength is actually a weakness, and vice-versa.  How will you know for sure which, if either, is right, or even important to your long term enjoyment of your spa?  I hope you have that testing lab, because Consumer Reports hasn't weighed in yet.  

IMO, it is better to focus on your budget, what features you want, how the tub fits you, and yes -- the warranty, and dealer and manufacturers reputation.  Or you can spend the time trying to sort out components, frame construction, shell and backing material, insulation method and filtration, all the things that you will hopefully never have to see again.  Most major manufacturers, and many of the lessor known ones, make a high quality spa that will provide you with years of enjoyment.  The different techniques they use may be good fodder for internet discussions, but for the average consumer, the end results are hardly "differentiators".  Good shopping to you!  

[ZzTop]

Hello Gary,

Sounds reasonable.  It sounds like spas with fiberglass shells are superior to those with other types of construction.  This shopper wants to know which manufacturers use fiberglass, and those who do not.  Can you (and other posters) take a shot at a list here?

Thanks!

Altazi

Beachcomber Spas are Fiberglassed.

[Bonibelle]

I think that Altazi is looking to this forum to collect all the information that he can to help him make a really hard decision. What is important to one person, may not be as important to another, but having as much information as possible is the goal. How relative it is to anything, would have to be a consumer's call.
I asked the question because I don't remember any reference to it before....Gary answered the question because he made the original statement and because he would obviously be in a real good position to evaluate the value of fiber glass on a tub..so in my mind, he is the test lab.
I did not mean this post to start any kind of argument, just to understand the concept.  :-/

[Altazi]

I think that Altazi is looking to this forum to collect all the information that he can to help him make a really hard decision. What is important to one person, may not be as important to another, but having as much information as possible is the goal. How relative it is to anything, would have to be a consumer's call.
I asked the question because I don't remember any reference to it before....Gary answered the question because he made the original statement and because he would obviously be in a real good position to evaluate the value of fiber glass on a tub..so in my mind, he is the test lab.
I did not mean this post to start any kind of argument, just to understand the concept.  :-/

Hi Bonibelle,

You are exactly correct; I am here to learn.  Thanks for your support!  

Reese's comments are also valid, if a bit testy - how WILL I understand all of this potentially conflicting information?  Well, some of it goes through my own BS filter.  Some of it I will research on websites  such as this, and hopefully get good information.  Having a repair tech mention that he repairs twice as many non-fiberglass tubs may be a good differentiator, especially if those types of tubs tend to have shorter warranties on the shell.

Yes, I will use my education and experience to help me make my decision.  I am one of those "handy" guys who can fix anything (just ask my wife , and have an extremely quick grasp of mechanical and electrical concepts.  I have a good eye for quality - which my wife says also translates into having a knack for finding the most expensive items in a store. . .  So far, I have done pretty well, and I don't see any reason for this to change.

I am not familiar with the spa industry, but am coming up to speed rather quickly.  Example: I have already gone to several of the motor manufacturer's websites to research technical information.  I understand the technical aspects extremely well; what I also want to know is how well they hold up and perform in the various spas.  Having great components in a spa is a place to start, but if a manufacturer doesn't correctly apply the component, all  bets are off.  When I see someone make a posting like "I am having trouble with xxx", I look at it to see if it is a "user-caused" problem, or something that could indicate that I might have the same problem if I had that spa. . .

My goal is to select a spa that will provide years of trouble-free relaxation and enjoyment.  I would rather put the research effort into the front end, than deal with avoidable hassles after I get a spa.

Regards,

Altazi

[MarKee]

Most spas are fiberglass backed but there are many differences in thicknesses.  Cheaper manufacturers will put 1 layer of fiber glass and call it good.  The advantage of fiberglass over an ABS; if you were to ever have a crack in the top layer of acrylic, the spa would not leak.  Marquis is a fiberglass backed spa with several layers of fiberglass that produced a shell that is about 1/2" thick.