Insulation?????

[Tman122]

The same guy that pitched the whole air space insulation thing on the arctics also told me that if it was fully insulated then when the ground was cold it would make the insulation cold and the hot water in the plumbing would have to heat the insulation as well as the tub.. I suppose if I had not taken 2 years of physics at the university I might actually believe that..

Could I ask what dealer this was and where are you located?

[Chas]

Whoever was trying to sell this Arctic spa didn't seem to even understand the system. I don't sell them, have never sold them, and I think I have only seen them at shows, if that.

But I 'get' what they are trying to do: it is a hybrid system. No, they don't call it that. I think they want to have that 'unique' system which all tub makers long to offer, but really it is a FF spa with an air gap just around the side of the shell.

Look at this pic:


That is a LOT of foam! I bet the R value is close to that of any other FF spa. We are not talking about a thin spritz of foam inside the cabinet: they really lay it in there all the way across the bottom, all the way up the sides, and even into the top rail are.

Yes, they leave the air space, which in this ONE brand I think might actually be able to be sealed and stay that way, since the open area is completely enveloped in a heavy, thick foam barrier.

I don't happen to like the fact that the plumbing is not supported by anything but the jet fittings, and they have gone to a rather heavy hose and fitting arrangement which I suspect puts more stress on the jet bodies - but we're looking at the insulation.


Thoughts?

[dkersten]

The same guy that pitched the whole air space insulation thing on the arctics also told me that if it was fully insulated then when the ground was cold it would make the insulation cold and the hot water in the plumbing would have to heat the insulation as well as the tub.. I suppose if I had not taken 2 years of physics at the university I might actually believe that..

Could I ask what dealer this was and where are you located?

I threw out his card, but he is supposed to have a shop here in town, although I had never heard of it.  I am in Billings, MT, and he said he was the biggest dealer in north dakota.  I talked to him at the state fair where he had everything set up..

[spahappy]

May I ask, was this the Montana State fair or North Dakota State fair.

I'm a North Dakota spa dealer and didn't know that their was an Arctic dealer in the state so I don't think he's the biggest dealer in the state.

[dkersten]

May I ask, was this the Montana State fair or North Dakota State fair.

I'm a North Dakota spa dealer and didn't know that their was an Arctic dealer in the state so I don't think he's the biggest dealer in the state.

Montana State Fair in Billings.  I seriously doubted anything this guy said, but he did mention that he sold some 40 tubs at his state fair in ND..

[Tom]

May I ask, was this the Montana State fair or North Dakota State fair.

I'm a North Dakota spa dealer and didn't know that their was an Arctic dealer in the state so I don't think he's the biggest dealer in the state.

Montana State Fair in Billings.  I seriously doubted anything this guy said, but he did mention that he sold some 40 tubs at his state fair in ND..

Our Customer Service Department tells me that we have no Arctic dealer in North Dakota.  I will continue to investigate in order to identify this dealer.

Tom G
Arctic Spas

[hottbpete]

I went to 3 spa companies yesterday, Arctic was on of them  The sales guy told me that they use a layered "fiberglass" underneath the acrylic skin and they are the only ones that use this.  This is the reason they do not need the insulation up against the tub.  It strong enough.  Made sense!  Then they have about 4 inches of insulation thatis on the sides of the tubs.  R-39 value I think he said.  

The one issue I really had with Arctic was that they had all wood tubs.  No "fake wood" They said that they never sold anything but the real wood.  I am not sure I want to stain the Hot Tub every year.

By the way
Select, Absolute and convertibles

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

R-39 at 4" thick, of insulation? What the heck they insulating it with? Ceramic insulation? that stuff's like $50 a square inch! (this post is sarcasm, and by telling you so, I hope you get the point)

[Tom]

I went to 3 spa companies yesterday, Arctic was one of them  The sales guy told me that they use a layered "fiberglass" underneath the acrylic skin and they are the only ones that use this.  This is the reason they do not need the insulation up against the tub.  It strong enough.  Made sense!  Then they have about 4 inches of insulation thatis on the sides of the tubs.  R-39 value I think he said.  

The one issue I really had with Arctic was that they had all wood tubs.  No "fake wood" They said that they never sold anything but the real wood.  I am not sure I want to stain the Hot Tub every year.
 

Arctic Spas is not the only company that uses hand-rolled fiberglass bonded to acrylic.  However, as far as I know, we do make the industry's only self-supporting fiberglass shell: no wood, steel, or foam is required for further support.

There may have been some confusion between the cover and the cabinet insulation.

Arctic specifies 3" nominal of polyurethane insulation sprayed on the floor, the inside of the cabinet, and the underside of the shell where it meets the cabinet (this latter insulation also secures hoses where necessary).  A typical figure  for sprayed polyurethane is R8 per inch, which would give an R-value of this insulation of around R25.

The 5/4 cover could have an R value of as high as R40 at the thickest section and R32 at the thinnest section, for an average of about R36.


Tom G.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Arctic specifies 3" nominal of polyurethane insulation sprayed on the floor, the inside of the cabinet, and the underside of the shell where it meets the cabinet (this latter insulation also secures hoses where necessary).  A typical figure  for sprayed polyurethane is R8 per inch, which would give an R-value of this insulation of around R25.

The 5/4 cover could have an R value of as high as R40 at the thickest section and R32 at the thinnest section, for an average of about R36.


Tom G.

Tom, I'm a little suspect of your numbers. PU foam at 2# density has an R value of 6.8 to 7.14. As the density drops, so does the R value. Interestingly, as the density goes up, the R value also drops.

At least according to the following;
http://www.uaf.edu/coop-ext/publications/freepubs/EEM-04756.pdf

Also, I believe you use Extruded, rather than expanded polystyrene on your covers? My recollection, and at the moment I'm too lazy to look it up, the R-value is somewhere between R-5 and R-7 per inch, not R-8........

Ok. so I looked it up...... R-5

http://www.coloradoenergy.org/procorner/stuff/r-values.htm
http://www.roofhelp.com/Rvalue.htm
http://www.octaform.com/tech_rvalues_xps.html
www.owenscorning.com/worldwide/admin/tempupload/pdf.pdf.OCPinkExtrudedPolystyreneInsulation.pdf