Question for the Water Experts ...

[IDW]

Never heard of calcium protecting metals. Soft water is looking to dissolve calcium not metal. A low ph will disolve metals.

[Tatooed_Lady]

funny, the girl at the pool store (whom I KNOW better than to listen to, as she's not from our dealer, nor does she REALLY have any interest in being sure things are right in our tub) said that our water is fine at a reading of 100ppm hardness....I thought it low, I do NOT 100% trust the test strips, and was going to purchase some stuff to raise the levels....now, using another strip (I know, I know.....strips bad, taylor kit GOOD!), the reading is hovering more around 25....well, I'll head to my dealer in the morning and rectify the sit-chee-ay-shun.
May as well call ahead too, and bring in a sample of the water for THEM to test....(this gives me the much needed excuse to buy more "tub stuff". mmmmmmmmmmmmmm........ tub stuff.....  

[tony]

Never heard of calcium protecting metals. Soft water is looking to dissolve calcium not metal. A low ph will disolve metals.

I always understood calcium protected metals (pumps, heaters).  The question is whether todays metals used in spas need that protection.

[Reese]

Spa Sentry from Bioguard. Best spa product ever made. A phospherous buffer that controls Ph better than TA

Later:  Never heard of calcium protecting metals. Soft water is looking to dissolve calcium not metal. A low ph will disolve metals.

Might want to do a little reading on this topic, beyond  the back of the Spa Sentry bottle and the SpaGuard sales guide.

[Vinny]

Hey Reese, you wrote what I was thinking ... I like that!

For all of you who really want to know, here's a link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water

Here's another:   http://www.fcwa.org/water/hardness.htm

It explains water hardness, but it seems that WE tub owners have our tubs at VERY HARD according to the info there, unless I misread the hardness scale box.

[hottub.pool_boy]

For non-concrete/ gunite spas calcium should be 100-150ppm. Concrete/ gunite requires a higher calcium level. Taylor kits and the like, cover the entire range for portable, vinyl lined, and concrete spas/ pools.

Spa Sentry, a liquid pH stabilizer for lazy-folk, is a great product. However, the dealer not telling the hot tub user to turn off their heater upon application is doing them a BIG diservice. Some of the calcium is deposited in the filter, but MOST of the calcium will stick to the warm heater. This is bad for the heater. Heater needs to be OFF for 24 hrs. after application.

Any metal in any spa needs to be protected. Stainless steel will rust if it's in a low pH or high chloromine/ bromomine environment.

[Reese]

Hey Reese, you wrote what I was thinking ... I like that!

One of my favorite sayings is:  "Great minds think alike....and small ones seldom differ!"

[imp etc]

Spa Sentry, a liquid pH stabilizer for lazy-folk, is a great product. However, the dealer not telling the hot tub user to turn off their heater upon application is doing them a BIG diservice. Some of the calcium is deposited in the filter, but MOST of the calcium will stick to the warm heater. This is bad for the heater. Heater needs to be OFF for 24 hrs. after application.

I was advised by the tech I had in a while back to use a similar product - Leisure Time "pH Balance" - when first I got the pH and TA adjusted properly. My pH and TA have been pretty easy to maintain, both in the old tub and in the new one, so I never did add it, and I have a whole bottle sitting right here.

This is the first I've heard that it also increases the water's hardness or protects the spa's components, or that I needed to leave the heater off for so long after adding it. The label does not mention this either.

My calcium is WAY low, so I would appreciate confirmation that I have understood the above correctly. So . . .

1) adding a pH buffer product such as this will also increase the calcium level?
2) I should turn the temp down and let the tub run for a day before letting the heater come on again?
3) I should do this every time I drain and re-fill?

I wasn't planning on doing the first re-fill after only one month with the new tub, since I've had a tub before and have a pretty light hand with the chems. We soak "skyclad" and don't use a lot of lotions etc, so I feel pretty safe with that plan.

All advice appreciated . . . thanks!

[Reese]

 I was advised by the tech I had in a while back to use a similar product - Leisure Time "pH Balance" - when first I got the pH and TA adjusted properly. My pH and TA have been pretty easy to maintain, both in the old tub and in the new one, so I never did add it, and I have a whole bottle sitting right here.

This is the first I've heard that it also increases the water's hardness or protects the spa's components, or that I needed to leave the heater off for so long after adding it. The label does not mention this either.

My calcium is WAY low, so I would appreciate confirmation that I have understood the above correctly. So . . .

1) adding a pH buffer product such as this will also increase the calcium level?
2) I should turn the temp down and let the tub run for a day before letting the heater come on again?
3) I should do this every time I drain and re-fill?

My understanding is just the opposite.  The pH balance products take calcium OUT of solution, decreasing hardness.  Since you are not having problems maintaining proper pH, it would be waste of money, as well as a potential risk to sensitive components.

It sounds as though you just need to add some calcium.  Your dealer should be able to trade your pH Balance for a whole bunch of calcium.

[Bill_Stevenson]

Vinny,

It seems like you got a bit of a run around for a simple question.  If you know how to pick and choose, the information is there.  Dr. Spa told you why our spa water should be hard.  Several people gave you good numbers 150 - 300 ppm is the right range.  

I apologize that I didn't see your question sooner.

Regards,

Bill

[imp etc]

My understanding is just the opposite.  The pH balance products take calcium OUT of solution, decreasing hardness.  Since you are not having problems maintaining proper pH, it would be waste of money, as well as a potential risk to sensitive components.

It sounds as though you just need to add some calcium.  Your dealer should be able to trade your pH Balance for a whole bunch of calcium.

Thanks Reese . . .

Actually I guess I need to clarify just a bit. The label on the product I have does NOT claim to raise the calcium. What it does say is "Due to pH Balance's unique buffering capacity, it is not necessary to adjust the calcium (hardness) level in your spa" then goes on to say "do not use if calcium level is over 150ppm," because it will "soften hard water and precipitate calcium, resulting in cloudy water," just as you say. They apparently have a modified product for spas with hardness over 150ppm.

So, whatever that means, it appears I do not need this product as you have said, but only because my pH and TA are fine as is.

What I'm still wondering is whether there's a need to keep the heater from coming on for 24 hours after adding calcium, which I apparently do need to do, according to hottub.pool_boy's previous post . . . or is that due to something else in this particular buffering product?

Clear as mud?  

[hottub.pool_boy]

Spa Sentry type products remove the Calcium from the water and replace it with something else. That's why the heater needs to be off for the first 24 hrs. after adding. Calcium is then deposited in your filter, not on the heater.

If you're not using Spa Sentry type products, no need to worry about the heater with regular additions of calcium.

[Reese]

Like Pool Boy said.

[imp etc]

If you're not using Spa Sentry type products, no need to worry about the heater with regular additions of calcium.

OK thanks that's what I thought . . . <scratching head> it would seem to me though, that something so important as turning off the heater ought to be on the labelling for this particular product. That's a different topic though . . .

Thanks again to both you and Reese!

[Vinny]

Vinny,

It seems like you got a bit of a run around for a simple question.  If you know how to pick and choose, the information is there.  Dr. Spa told you why our spa water should be hard.  Several people gave you good numbers 150 - 300 ppm is the right range.  

I apologize that I didn't see your question sooner.

Regards,

Bill

Bill,

No need to apologize!

I thought about posting on here before thinking that I should use the web to research. I also thought by posting this here I would be able to help some newer newbies understand water hardness.

Actually I was surprised to see that we harden our water to very hard in the tub, I was thinking it was just above soft!

Vinny