water care.

[blakley33]

I am having a problem with my water, I think.
I have had my spa for about 1.5 months and after about the first month I had to drain my water due to it being merky and alot of foam.
It was being used alot the first month and had several people in it at times so that I understand could have been the problem.
It has been about 2 weeks since I drained and cleaned tub and the water is still clear but is starting to get foamy again and when you are in the water it has kind of a strange chemical smell such as the chemicals I am using in the tub  which is oz, and spa 56.
My wife and I use the tub with no bathing suites so I dont think it is soap and we try and shower before we use the tub.
Could there be some other chemical inbalace with my water making it this way.
The only time we have the cover off is when we are in the tub wich is about 30 min at a time probably 4x per week.
May be a stupid question but do you need to leave the cover off more often for any reason to let it breath so to speak.
Any info will be very helpfull. Just dont think I should have to change water every 2-4 weeks.
Also my tub is on a filter cycle of 4hrs 2x per day.

[Vinny]

You don't mention about any reading.

What's the PH, alk and calcium?

Is spa 56 dichlor or bromine? How much in PPM do you use and when? Dichlor needs to be put into the tub often and bromine needs to have a residue. I generally put in 3 PPM dichlor after soaking and 1.5 ppm every other day if I don't soak. Too much dichlor isn't bad; too little is.

Have you shocked the spa to get a higher than normal PPM reading (10 for dichlor and 15 (?) for bromine - sorry I use dichlor)? This is really an effective way to kill most of whatever is growing in the tub. It is also an effective way to oxidize contaminents in the tub.

How often do you clean the filters?

Look at the above and see if there is something out of the ordinary that maybe you're doing.

[blakley33]

I use dichlor and as far as the readings I use test strips and I dont feel I get a real acurate reading by doing this.
from what I can tell when trying to match colors I have never really gone over 3-5ppm on dichlor.
Ph and ALK always looks like they are in the color range they are supposed to be in.
I spray off my filters about every 2 weeks and when I changed water after 1 month I soaked filters in simple green solution for about 12hrs and rinsed and then ran through dish washer with no soap per dealer.
I have not cleaned filters now for about 2 weeks.
Am I maybe not adding enough dichlor. I put in about a cap full every other day. and 1 tab of Oz every time we  use the tub. I also have Natures 2, and Ozone.
Why would I be getting so much foam so fast after doing a water change. we are not getting into tub with lotion on or hair care products or even suits.
The water is clear, but has a strange smell, almost like a chemical smell or like when you go into a fitness center with an indoor pool area, if that makes any sense.

Does that give any better picture. I also have( I think) 150sqft filtration.

[Brookenstein]

I don't know what OZ (is that like MPS?) is or Simple Green... but, have you had the foam pretty much since the water change?  If so, I would guess you didn't rinse the Simple Green out well enough.  I know when I have cleaned my filters, I spray them for about 5 minutes each, then stick them in the DW... I check the DW water and its always soapy.  So, when the cycle is done I rinse again and again.  I'm shocked at how hard it is to fully rinse them.

I use dichlor after use (about tsp per person) and shock weekly with the MPS.  My water is perfect until water change time which seems to be about 3 months or so.  (We use the tub nightly for about an hour).

[drewstar]

Spa 56 is Dichlor.  I use it with an ozonator and have good luck.

As others have asked, what are your other readings? Geting the Ph, and Alk and CA I've seen it effect foaming. What is your cehmical routine?

Have you washed, (with filter cleaner) your filter? have you rinsed the hell out of it?

some foam can be taken care of using a foam down product. But I feel this must be used very sparingly as it effects water clarity.  Putting the foam down in a spray bottle, and spritzing the foam can help.

The chemical smell is proabbaly the ozone.  Is is a significant concern, or are you just curious?

What type of tub do you have?

[Drewski]

Hi blakely33:

I think a few things may help.

First, "adding" dichlor each night is great, but you still need to shock at least once per week. The point of shocking is to raise chlorine levels to ten times the level of chloramines.  When this occurs, a threshold is reached called "breakpoint chlorination."  If your chlorine level tests at 1 PPM, this means 10 PPM is your shocking "target."

Why shock? Ok, short course in "yucky" water problems. When "free" chlorine molecules react with biological agents floating around in your spa (skin oil, fats, etc.) containing nitrogen or ammonia, they create a "combined chlorine" compound, commonly called a "chloramine." The chloramine is no longer available to sanitize anything, and it floats around in the water, blocking the ability of "free" chlorine molecules and creating "the smell" you are referring to (this could also include the smell of chlorine itself, BTW).

Shocking acts like a lightning bolt, "ripping" through the water, breaking up and "burning" all the stuff causing problems. The "chloramines" are burned away, the remaining stuff also reacts and is also burned away because of the very high levels of chlorine. In my opinion, most of the water quality problems you read about on this board come from NOT doing a good "hard" shock once per week. At the most we have 500 gallons of water in our tubs; using "larger" amounts of chlorine shock for this volume is CHEAP and will probably fix most issues. I think we try too much to keep chlorine levels too "low" - which we can STILL do even WITH shocking - and forget that regular shocking is what can solve most water quality issues. Remember also that pH plays a BIG part in the efficacy of chlorine. A pH of 7.3 to 7.5 is the "balanced" number for spa chlorine levels (at a pH of 7.5, chlorine is about 50% effective).

I'd suggest shocking on a Saturday or Sunday morning and leaving the tub cover off for at least 1 hour after shocking, preferably with the pumps running. I use 4 cap fulls (each cap is a little less than a shot glass) for shocking, you could probably start with 3 and see what happens. And YES, running the tub with the cover off after shocking is what needs to be done. It allows for the venting of gases. I'd also suggest waiting 15 minutes before covering the tub after adding dichlor when finished.

Second, I'd think about improving how you "wash" filters. I don't know about Simple Green. It works on a lot of stuff, but it might contribute to your foam. Try this - stop by Home Depot and buy the spa/pool filter cleaner stuff that's yellow. Pull the filters, spray them real good, wait 15 minutes and then use a garden hose on straight stream to clean them out REAL good. Go up and down with the pleats and take your time. You'll get wet and it will take 10 minutes a filter, but I assure you they will be CLEAN.  

Finally, consider using a clarifier to improve filter performance. The "polymer" stuff (usually blue, also available at Home Depot) works great, only 1 cap maybe twice a week. I'd hold off on this until 2 weeks of the "shocking" routine, I think most of your problem is caused by lack of shocking combined with filtration issues.

Some people will undoubtedly disagree with what I've posted here and I respect their opinions. My advice comes from 7 years of owning a hot tub and 5 years of taking care of an indoor pool kept at 90 degrees for scuba diving instruction.

Post questions if you have them...

Good Luck!

Drewski

[blakley33]

Brookenstein the Oz is a 1inch tablet that I use that has a affect on the water clarity and smell due to using N2 wich I have, atleast that is what I was told and pretty much what the bottle says. I use all LT products.
When I used Simple Green to clean my filters I rinsed each filter for about 10 min before putting into DW and I did not have foam for about the first week and a half.
Drewstar as far as my ph, Alk, and Cal, I use the test strips and so as close as I can tell the Ph and Alk are in the range they are supposed to be in but the calcium showed that it was around 50 or so, but like I said that was trying to compare colors. I do think my calcium is low. I did Shock by adding more dichlor and got the tub up to around 10ppm last night which I have never done before.
As far as cleaning my filters when I did my first water change about 2.5weeks ago I cleaned filters and soaked them in simple green and ran through DW which my dealer suggested the simple green and DW.
I try and rinse them off with hose about every other week or so.
My treatment routine is I put about a half a cap full of dichlor in after use and 1 tab of Oz before use. Once a week I will add a whole cap of dichlor and 3 Tabs of Oz.
Until last night had not really added extra dichlor to give tub a shock.
The smell was just out of curiosity. did not start to notice it util about 2 weeks after water change, Just does not smell like fresh clean water is all like after I first filled it.
The tub that I have is an 06 Catalina stealth series Raptor.
Thanks for the help and time.

[drewstar]

Huh.

When you mentioned OZ, I asssumed you ment ozone. I am not familliar with OZ. Sorry, I don't want to confuse you.  

are you saying, though you never shocked before? (either with a super dose of the Spa 56 OR Renew?  If this is the first time you've shocked, I'd say that is the culprit.   If you've never shocked until now, what is your water care program/schedule?   You may have been given incomplete information, or overlooked some important steps.

[blakley33]

Thanks alot for your post Drewski, very helpfull.
When you say shocking the tub are you talking about using 4 cap fulls or your spa 56, or Dichlor,
and are you saying that after shocking run tub with cover off for 1 hr and after just using tub and adding say half a cap full of dichlor leave top off for 15min?
When  I used the simple green after soaking about 12hrs I rinsed each filter for about 10 min and then ran through DW. They seemed really clean and tub did not start to foam for about 2 weeks.
My dealer suggested I use the Simple Green.
I am willing to try any product that people suggest works.
My Ph levels always seems to be where they are supposed to be but I do know that any time I check the levels my PPM on chlorine alway read as low as possible on the color sticks. If I add dichlor at night and next day I check the levels say 24hrs later it will read nothing, but I think that is normal due to the chlorine not lasting that long in the water, am I right, or does that make any sense.
Drewski that is ok if people disagree with you, atleast you took the time to post on hear and help me out.
well appriciated.

Thanks, Blakley33

[blakley33]

Drewstar, several people have asked what Oz is. It is a Leisure Time product and this is right from the back of the bottle.

Oz non-chlorine shock tablets help reduce odors caused by organic contaminants with an effervescent water cleaning action. Oz will also help reduce odors caused by ammonian and chloramines found in bromine or chlorine sanitized water. The result is fresh, clean water.
Oz is a non-chlorine shock treatment not a disinfectant. Chlorine, bromine, or other sanitizer is still necessary to properly disinfect spa water.

[drewstar]

Blakely, Huh. how often do you put the OZ in? how long till it disolves?

FWIW here's what I do with my tub.

After each use,  I put in about 1/2 teaspoon (per person) of Spa 56.  (I've tested the water 10 minutes after adding it to ensure I get up to 3-5 ppm).  I close the cover and run the pumps for about 10 minutes.

Ever week or so on sunday (let's say after every 10 bathers or 10 single soaks). I  add in Renew MPS shock, and run the tub for about 45 minutes with the cover off.

I may add some csome calrifier ever other week, and some defender ever other week.  

I test the water usually on Wednesday to adjust PH.

[blakley33]

I was told by my dealer to put it in about 5 min before you soak and add  1 tablet. takes about 5 min to disolve. and once per week on a day that you do not soak add 3 tablets.
I will try a routine like you are taking about and see what happens.
Is it ok to just use spa 56 to shock the water once per week?

[drewstar]

Yes, you can shock by using a super dose of spa 56. (4 tablespoons or so) You want to get the chlorine up to 10 ppm (check about 10 mintues after adding.  Keep the cover over off, run the jets for 45 mintues.

(don't use the oz tablet if you are shocking with the Spa 56).

[Drewski]

Hi blakely33:

Don't fret, you're almost there.

I did a little research on your LT products (sorry, I use the no-name cheap stuff ) and basically your dealer gave you very good advice.

First, the "Oz" is a shock or "oxidizing" product made with MPS instead of chlorine. This is fine and is actually recommended for use with N2.  The "Spa 56" product is good old dichlor and can be used as I said earlier.

So, it sounds like your dealer set you up for an ozone/N2/MPS/low-dichlor routine which should work well for your level of use.  It also sounds like, however, that "shocking" is something he didn't tell you about or you missed when he gave you instructions. To stick with your current LT products, here's what I would suggest:

When you change water, make certain you clear out all old water and, if the tub was yucky, spray and wipe the interior with a 10% solution of Clorox. Allow it to dry in the sun for about an hour. Each time you change the water, you MUST change the N2 cartridge. The N2 cartridge is only good for one tub of water, with small fills during the 3 month water treatment cycle N2 recommends.

Add your new water, balance TA and pH accordingly. You don't really need to worry about calcium too much, but having calcium closer to the recommended "range" does help the chemistry of other products. Once these are "balanced," use a heavy "shock" of your Spa 56 product to achieve a 10 PPM or more chlorine level. Leave the cover off at least 1 hour and run the tub at least 20 minutes to allow this to circulate. N2 requires this for their product to work correctly!

The routine your dealer suggested (and the additional information you gave in follow-up posts) sounds just fine to me. Basically, the "Oz" product is an MPS oxidizer that will burn stuff off from the last time you used the tub BEFORE and DURING the time you use it now. That's why he said add it BEFORE you get in. The "Spa 56" is dichlor which is added AFTER. This acts as your base sanitizer and at the level you are adding it should maintain the .5 PPM chlorine level recommended by N2. Using the combined method of these two products, you would NOT need to leave the cover off after using the spa. Dichlor and MPS products are interchangeable and can be used concurrently in a water treatment regiment. The advantage to using MPS is you can get in the water almost immediately after using it, while with dichlor you need to wait.

Shocking is something you NEED to do, regardless of what else happens. N2 product literature recommends this "when the water gets cloudy," but I would say at least every other week at your current use or weekly with more people in your tub. By the time "the water gets cloudy," is usually too late and recovery takes longer.  N2 combined with an ozonator REDUCES the need to shock but does NOT eliminate it.  You can use either the "Oz" or "Spa56" for shocking. Both have the same effect, but the "Spa56" product will create residual free chlorine that will last longer than the "Oz" product. This may push your chlorine past .5 PPM for several days which, if you are sensitive to it, may bother you. An MPS shock using the "Oz" will work just as well, BUT be careful if you have a bunch of people in the tub suddenly, especially KIDS, and change your use pattern. I recommend the dichlor ("Spa56") shock following this. Regardless of what shock you use, leave the cover off at least 1 hour and allow the tub to run at least 1 cycle to vent gases.

Also keep in mind that your ozonator can really make a difference with your water. If you are having problems with the water being "finicky" at .5 PPM of chlorine, increase the run time of your ozonator (assuming you can do this). Increasing ozonator time by 1 hour daily can really make a difference.

As far as the Simple Green method you have for filters, stick with it for awhile and see how it works. Your foam was probably caused by the lack of shock. "Clean" water should NOT have foam. It should be your first indication to increase the use of a sanitizer product and decrease the time between shocks.

Finally, what they don't tell newbies (probably so they don't scare them) is that water care is a little tricky. Equilibrium is the key to "steady state" water and by that I mean if you get a treatment program working well and you stick to it, your water will reach an equilibrium point or "balance," and everything will be easy for you. BUT, if you change your use pattern (i.e., 10 people get in the tub one night for 2 hours when it's usually only YOU and the Mrs. for 30 minutes), expect changes with your water that you will need to react to.

Running a .5 PPM of chlorine with N2 gives you a very SMALL window of adjustment to changing conditions, especially as your water gets older. This is generally NOT a problem for a well established use pattern. Keep up your daily cycle and shock regularly or as needed.

Please follow up post and tell us how things are turning out.

Good Luck!

Drewski  

[blakley33]

Drewski that was a great post, lots of usefull information there. I really appriciate that.
I shocked the water last night and cleaned the filters just with a garden hose, I soaked them just 2.5 weeks ago.
The filters were pretty dirty.
Still today when I turn the jets and blowers all on I am still having foam. I did try using some foam down which I have with water in a spray bottle.
I also used a little LT clear and blue. I noticed that After I turn all the jets and blower off that I have a yellowish scum around the edge of the tub from the bubbles and foam.
Is this a sign that my filters were just too dirty and all that scum looking stuff is oils and grime from off our body?