Envoy or Geneva

[shabba34]

Having wet tested both, I completely agree that the Geneva provides a much more vigorous massage. The envoy has a total of 4hp vs 5hp, but I beleive the main reason is the flow penalty as a result of full filtration.

While sales stats are interesting, many inferior products outsell better ones.

Objectively, the Geneva has more friendly pump controls, better operating diverter valves, more pressure to the jets, wrist jets, air jets/pump, and exterior lighting. The Envoy has no bypass filtration and moto massage. Subjectively, there are of course many differences.

Wet testing both, my family hand down chose the Geneva - no contest.

I beleive that if you took the Geneva and sold it through the Hot Spring dealer network with the HostSpring brand, it would overnight break every record set by the Sovereign.

1: Again, the Vista is more comparable to the Geneva, not the Envoy.
2:  Jet strength has nothing to do with the # of filters unless they are clogged as on any spa.
3:  The controls on the HS couldn't be more user friendly you momo!(Jets on, jets off, light on light off.)
4:  HS may be inferior in your opinion and superior in many others.
5:  As much as you would like to believe so, the Geneva will never touch the numbers of the Sovereign or the Envoy for that fact.  It has less to do with the dealer network then it does with a customer being able to get a similair spa from a 100 other MFG's for less money.

[greenhut]

I agree the Geneva will not touch the HS numbers. I said that if it was called a HS though, it would trounce them. Of course, this is just my opinnion. I don't see how the HS line differentiates itself so substaintially on features. HS has 100% filtration and motomassage. I think you could argue that any manufacturer could equally differentiate itself. HS differentiates itself through a simple quality approach and the best track record in the industry. It is not a product leader.

You could not be more wrong about the HS controls. The Geneva’s controls far surpass HS. First, the main control panel is “in” the tub. All functions can be accessed in the tub, and the screen is easily read in the tub (you can even invert the temp display). A secondary control panel is located on the opposite side of the tub and has individual Jets 1 and 2 buttons, lights, and a mode control button for stereo use. Hotspring really needs to bring the full control panel into the tub. On the HS, the main control panel is outside the tub, halfway down the front of the spa and impossible to see from in the tub unless you really hang out. You can't see or adjust the temp in the tub (without of course hanging/reaching out).

With the main controls out of site, you are left with the in tub mini control panel. It has no display, offers few functions, and is awkward. For example, there is only one jets button which has to be pushed 6 times to cycle through all jet option. 1st push is pump 2 low, then pump 2 hi, then pump 1 hi + pump 2 hi, pump 1 hi and 2 low, then just pump 1 hi, then off. Couldn't they have added 1 more button for independent pump 1/2 control?

The mechanical controls on the Geneva also surpassed the Envoy. Aside from their ease of use, the diverters moved much more smoothly and were quiet. Even the air intake switches had a smooth and solid feel relative to the HS.

There is no doubt the Envoy is a great product. But it is not a matter of opinion to say the Geneva has more jet pressure, more user friendly controls, an air pump, exterior lighitng, a 5 year Watkins Warranty, and nearly identical core parts to the HS line. Does this mean the Geneva is a better tub? Of course not, but it is for my family.


PS. My detailed review here: http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1132890275;start=

[seamoe]

I've decided on the Geneva. It arrives on Monday.  I will keep you posted on how it goes.  Greenhut had a great review which helped and I spoke to Watkins directly and was told that there is a local company that will provide warranty service in the event of a problem. Thanks for all the comments.

[KarlXII]

I've decided on the Geneva. It arrives on Monday.  I will keep you posted on how it goes.  Greenhut had a great review which helped and I spoke to Watkins directly and was told that there is a local company that will provide warranty service in the event of a problem. Thanks for all the comments.

I don't think you´ll be disappointed. I'm in my Geneva once or twice a day now. It´s great!

[greenhut]

Congrats and Enjoy!

[sandiego]

The Geneva has been our number one selling spa for as long as I can remember. That is why the Vista was made. Yes the Vista is more or a comparision to the Geneva, in fact around these parts we refer to the Vista as the "Ge-Vista" if you look at the spa, you can see it's almost an exact replica. Coincidence? I think not. Watkins was smart to take our number one selling spa and give it to the number one selling brand in the industry. The real difference is the moto-massage and the mold of the lounge, but other that that they are pretty similar.

In my opinion I will put a Geneva Utopia up against any other model of spa and it will hold it's own. It just depends on how you show it. Many HS dealers have not had success with the Caldera line because they don't know how to sell it, but here is San Diego, people know Caldera as the number one brand not Hot Spring, and you can ask anyone at Watkins about that. That's one of the reasons why they bought Caldera because we were a small regional company who did really well in San Diego, but here was this leader in the industry who didn't dominate their own backyard.

One of the main things that hasn't been talked about during this discusssion is the foot ridge. When you get a spa with that much power, like the Genva, or Vista or even the Envoy the foot ridge is a main selling point in my opinion. The number one feedback I get from customers who wet test Sundance, Hot Spring and Caldera is that they will say, " well you have this feature and they have that feature, but in the Caldera I felt the seating was more comfortable and that I was able to be in control more because of the foot ridge, I wasn't floating around in the spa"

That makes a big difference. HS is a great line, and they have spas that will fit some people better than Caldera might, but put me next to a HS dealer and I will be able to more than hold my own, if customers come and wet test the products.

[Bill_Stevenson]

I agree with sandiego on this one and not with Term and pkud - sorry guys.  I am one of the 16,000 people who bought an Envoy last year, but not because I preferred it to the Geneva.  There are NO SPAs that I have seen that have the total package that Caldera puts into their products.  So the argument that it is difficult to differentiate the product because it is like 100 other spas does not wash with me either.  

Finally, sandiego's point about the foot ridge is very well taken.  If I were to go in the spa business, which is damned unlikely. the line I would pursue is Caldera.  Having said that, my HS dealer had both lines for a few years, but could not justify the cost of double inventory or floor space for both and the HS outsold the Caldera line by about 10 to 1 according to him.  So what do I know?

Regards,

Bill

[Chas]

The envoy has a total of 4hp vs 5hp, but I beleive the main reason is the flow penalty as a result of full filtration.

While sales stats are interesting, many inferior products outsell better ones.

The Envoy has over 300 square feet of filtering area. I don't exactly see that as a 'penalty.' I know it's easy to assume that drawing water through a filter will automatically slow everything to a standstill, but when the engineers where done, they had come up with a very good system.

As to your second statement above, I would add this: "for a short time."

I don't see inferior products outselling better ones for the long haul.

[drewstar]

What's the foot ridge?

What benifits are customers seeing from it?  

[hymbaw]

Drew,
Have you ever seen what appears to be "home plate" on the floor of the tub? That's it.

Don't worry about it 'cause your foot dome is far superior.

[Bill_Stevenson]

 "Don't worry about it 'cause your foot dome is far superior."

Hmmm, maybe not.  My under 5 foot wife found the Caldera foot ridge helped her stay planted in every seat in the spa except the lounger.  When she tried a Jacuzzi with the foot dome, it was of no real help to her because by the time her feet hit it, her head was partially submerged.  

This is just one more example of why everyone needs to wet test to make an informed decision.

Regards,

Bill

[drewstar]

Drew,
Have you ever seen what appears to be "home plate" on the floor of the tub? That's it.

Don't worry about it 'cause your foot dome is far superior.

I thought the "home plate" was what you guys were calling the foot ridge.  I just wasn't sure.

Yea, the footdome I l ove it.   It was one of the main reason we bought the Caspian.

In past threads,  it was discussed about having soething to put your feet against so that one can "push back into the seat"   From looking at the pics on Caldera's web site, I just didn't think a small ridge would be conforatbale, obviously the folks who have actually expereiced it feel differently.

I do like the calf jets on the calderas. I wish my tub had something along those lines.

[hawkman]

I have a Niagra and I've had nothing but problems. The thermostat went bad, the air valves got stuck either in an open or a close position, and now the top of the shell is cracking. Watkins is suppose to replace it and I am considering an Envoy. I will admit none of the HS have the same power like the Calderas, but I am really concerned with quality.

[anne]

So if the HS filtration system is not the reason for the poor jet power, what is? Is seems like such a common comment, and HS seems to work so hard to make their tubs likeable. I'm not HS bashing- I came really close to buying the Envoy, but the jets were a turn off. If HS coud address this issue (and Watkins does in Caldera, it would seem) then HS could improve. What am I missing?

[Gomboman]

Good luck with the Geneva. It's a very nice spa. My favorite seat in the Envoy is the lounger with the DX Moto. That seat alone would make me buy the Envoy over the Geneva again.