Envoy or Geneva

[sandiego]

Caldera's only have bypass filtration when the second pump is on and you are trying to get maximum power out of the spa, that is usually when people are using it and how long is that for maybe 15-30 minutes? So it's usually never a big deal

No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....

[East_TX_Spa]

No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....

Ya'll don't make me pull out the pics again.........

Terminator

[anne]

No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....

Poor jet power was *one* of the factors kept me from buying the Envoy, but I did not know until recently (all the titilating conversations here!) that this issue was related to the filtration system.

[Bill_Stevenson]

Term,

Spare me your pictures.  Seen 'em all before.  Like everything else in our technical age, there are compromises with each and every aspect of any technical product.  The Geneva and the Envoy are very similar in size, format, and are made by the same manufacturer.  They are both very high quality tubs.  The difference is in their performance and feel.  To accomodate the full filtration feature, the Envoy was designed with slightly smaller pumps.  If you like the feel of the Envoy and like full filtration, then the Envoy is an excellent choice.  

But make no mistake about it, the Geneva offers a much more vigorous hydromessage and this engineer doesn't think the full fitration feature is worth the cost in terms of reduced performance.  Moreover, from the experience of having owned both tubs, I can state again categorically that the water quality was essentially identical for each.

BTW, I think your pictures reflect abject neglect on the part of the owners and/or users.  I would expect that pump life would not be different for these two spas if they were adequately maintained.  

Bill  

[shabba34]

No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....

Having used and sold both spas for years, the jet performance on say the Vista and the Geneva are so close, that using the statement "Severely Limited" is a naive generalization.  I use the Vista instead of the Envoy because they have comparable jet counts and pump sizes.  The # of filters on the HS allow the same water flow to return to the pumps as any other spa with the same GPM.  The difference is where the water is coming from:  Bypass suctions, or suctions located below the filters.  Still the same amount of water to make everything hydrolically work without back pressure.

I agree it does limit them from adding 3 and 4 water pumps, however Caldera hasn't made the venture into 3 and 4 water pumps have they??...They spent all their money forgetting to put a filter lid on the Aventine.    

[drewstar]

About the warranty service, I am assuming that since they are both Watkins products, the local Hot Spring dealer would provide warranty service, however...   I have tested both and like the Geneva a little better, mostly due to the lounge seat (didn't really care for the motomass.) and the control panel inside the spa. I liked the filtration system on the Envoy better than the Geneva, but I doubt that will be my deciding factor. This will be my second tub (first one was a Gulf Coast Englewoood) and since I am spending twice as much, I want to make sure I do it right this time.  

Interesting.  How did you like the Gulf coast?  Why are you buying  a new tub?  Why not another Gulf?

[The_real_Clown_Shoes]

What's wrong with Caldera controls if in a cold weather climate? They are not on the side of the cabinet like a HS.

Also Caldera Spa "SHELLS" are made in Mexico, then they are taken up to Vista for plumbing. Anything wrong with that?

Maybe you should do some reasearch on the brands before you go out making broad generalizations about the tubs.

Sorry about generalizations, but I certainly didn't see a whole lot of Ocean colored spas at the factory.  Also the control panel on the outside is great for peace of mind if you haven't used the tub in a few days.  If something trips in that spa and you haven't been out there in a few days of Wisconsin winter, you're sure not going to be happy with what you find.

[East_TX_Spa]

I guess there's a contingent of folks who DO prefer the type of massage the Envoy provides.  About 16,000 of them last year.  To each his own.

Terminator

[Micah]

I'm so glad to see that Jacuzzi and Sundance aren't the only ones to have arguements among family members

[Wisoki]

Mom always liked you better!

I'm so glad to see that Jacuzzi and Sundance aren't the only ones to have arguements among family members

[shabba34]

I'm so glad to see that Jacuzzi and Sundance aren't the only ones to have arguements among family members

Speaking from a selling perspective, and a selling perspective only, Caldera spas are too similair to a 100 other spas on the market.  There is no real exclusivity in how they are built or operate, the jets they use or insulation they have or the way the filter etc... so in comparing them to HS, I personally have a bias.  Ask dealers who have sold both products, and they will tell you which spa is easier to sell.  I sell both, so I'm not narrow minded on one individual product.  Both are great products and stand to last a long time.

P.S.  These are my opinions, and the comments made were not intended to downplay one brand or the other.  There are many customers who prefer the HS product to the Caldera and vice versa.  By the way when is the annual full contact football game between HS and Caldera.  

[East_TX_Spa]

I agree with pkud.  And I sure don't argue with Caldera folks.  They're like distant cousins that you see every few years or so when you visit Cancun.

Terminator

[The_real_Clown_Shoes]

Speaking from a selling perspective, and a selling perspective only, Caldera spas are too similair to a 100 other spas on the market.  There is no real exclusivity in how they are built or operate, the jets they use or insulation they have or the way the filter etc... so in comparing them to HS, I personally have a bias.  Ask dealers who have sold both products, and they will tell you which spa is easier to sell.  I sell both, so I'm not narrow minded on one individual product.  Both are great products and stand to last a long time.

P.S.  These are my opinions, and the comments made were not intended to downplay one brand or the other.  There are many customers who prefer the HS product to the Caldera and vice versa.  By the way when is the annual full contact football game between HS and Caldera.  

Our competitive HS dealer has both HS and Caldera under the same roof.  They have one Caldera tub among all the Hot Springs and it's dry.

[East_TX_Spa]

We did actually carry them in 2001.  I sold one and our Tyler store sold one.  We still may end up carrying them again.  I guess we already do via the HotSpot line.  That Sea Mist Sorrento was something else!

Terminator

[greenhut]

Having wet tested both, I completely agree that the Geneva provides a much more vigorous massage. The envoy has a total of 4hp vs 5hp, but I beleive the main reason is the flow penalty as a result of full filtration.

While sales stats are interesting, many inferior products outsell better ones.

Objectively, the Geneva has more friendly pump controls, better operating diverter valves, more pressure to the jets, wrist jets, air jets/pump, and exterior lighting. The Envoy has no bypass filtration and moto massage. Subjectively, there are of course many differences.

Wet testing both, my family hand down chose the Geneva - no contest.

I beleive that if you took the Geneva and sold it through the Hot Spring dealer network with the HostSpring brand, it would overnight break every record set by the Sovereign.