Author Topic: Generator for freeze protection? (Read 7538 times)

jmh · « **on:** May 10, 2006, 11:26:51 am »

Hello......I am a newbie and will be getting a first spa in a few weeks. I have an electrician coming in a week to do the wiring for a Sundance Altamar (2006). Since the electrician will be here I want to consider having him do wiring for a generator for winter freeze protection. I already have a generator (Honda 5000 watt 120/240 volt) hooked up to various household things furnace, frige., water pump etc. A gen tran is in place for this. I want to hook up the spa to the main service (200 amp) with 50 or 60 amp service disconnect or gfci breaker and #6 wire. To use the generator in the winter (if there is an extended power outage)(they happen here) I know I would have to do a manual wire change at the control box on the hot tub to shift from 60 to 30 amp. to run just the heater and a circ pump.

Am I on the right track with this?

Is a Service disconnet best to use near the spa to avoic false tripping? If so what is the best brand to buy for this application?

Hot Tub Forum · « **on:** May 10, 2006, 11:26:51 am »

SerjicalStrike · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2006, 11:54:10 am »

I prefer the GFCI outside near the tub. Makes servicing the spa that much easier, meaning you do not even have to be home for the service guy to work on your spa.

Chas · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2006, 11:55:35 am »

I have set up a HotSpring grandee for a couple who live 'off grid' full time. All we did was hardwire the circ pump to run on their battery system so they have constant circulation.

I bet that would work just fine for you: when the power goes your circ pump shoule be one of the circuits which kick over the the genny. No heat, just keep the water moving. Should give you weeks of safety, and if you discover the water temp getting dangerously low, you could just add some warm water from your house - which could add another week.

jmh · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2006, 01:08:55 pm »

Chas ......That sounds like a great idea. If I am reading you right, I will have the electrician run the #6 wire from the main service (breaker) to the GFCI breaker or GFCI Disconnect by the spa and then on to the spa electrical box. He is also to run a different wire (probably a #12?) from the gen tran right along side the #6 wire to the circ pump. This wire would only be live when the power is out and the generator is on. Do I have it?? How many amps does the typical circ pump draw. I am getting the Sundance Altamar 2006 model and I don't know how much it is suppose to draw. I'll call the dealer if I need too. But I doubt it is more than a couple of amps. If the amperage is low I can just connect it into my existing gen tran without having to buy a new one of these expensive units.

Thanks Serjical Strike. I have heard that a GFCI disconnect near the spa will reduce false tripping. Is that not true?

SerjicalStrike · « **Reply #4 on:** May 10, 2006, 01:57:50 pm »

The circ pump draws less than 1 amp. Around 0.6amps I believe.

Chas · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2006, 02:15:22 pm »

Yup - less than one amp.

I don't know if you only get power outages with ice storms/sub-zero weather, but if your power outage is during a time when the daytime temps get up above freezing, you may be surprised to find the temp in the tub dropping very very slowly if at all: the circ pump puts a tiny amount of heat into the tub 'round the clock. In warm weather it can hold the tub at 95-98 degress on a HotSpring, and I would imagine similar things happen on a Sundance. Of course, in warm weather you don't need freeze protection, but just to give you a better picture of the way this stuff works...

jmh · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2006, 03:05:08 pm »

Thanks Serjicalstrike for the technical info.

Chas .......Thanks for the update. I realized after I did the last post that the circ pump alone may not do the trick. If we have a prolonged power outage in say +or - 10 degress F for a week (did happen a few years ago with a major ice storm in Maine) wouldn't the water in the main pumps freeze? The Altamar has two pumps in addition to the circ pump.

I had thought of running a 30 amp cord from the generator to the spa but this would be a 240 v power and I don't seem to find a gfci unit that I could plug onto the 240 v 30 amp line. I could still go the gen tran route with the existing line coming to the main service (actually the existing gen tran that I use for the house circuits at this time). I would only need to unplug it and plug it into the new gen tran 2-pole 30 amp unit, which would in turn be connected to the soon to be installed #6 wire going to the GFCI or GFCI disconnect near the spa. If I did that I would only have to shift wiring at the electrical box on the spa to 30 amp from 60 amp at the time of the outtage event. This way the circ pump and the heater and one of the two pumps would operate. Which leaves the question of water in the second pump. ? UGH!

jmh · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2006, 03:23:09 pm »

update ! I just called Sundance tech support and they said that they don't recommend a generator back up "for warranty purposes". They also told me that if the settings were chaned to thirty amp from 60 amp in the control box (by an electrician) then the spa would operate both pumps, as well as the circ pump and the heater. It would only operate the pumps at low speed but that would be fine. That would keep everything protected.

SerjicalStrike · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2006, 03:42:45 pm »

The 2006 Altamar has no low speed pumps. 2 1-speed pumps and the circulation pump. The 2006 also utilizes a 40amp mode as compared to the 2005 30amp mode.

jmh · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2006, 06:26:46 pm »

Serjical strike, Thanks for the info. I don't know why the tech support didn't tell me the 2006 is forty amp. Actually I didn't tell her it was a 2006 , just Altamar. The install download does say 40 amp. On the specs of the Altamar it does say that pump #1 is two speed and pump #2 is one speed. The install information (that is available in acrobat) at the customer care part of the Sundance web site says that there are three configuratons: 40 , 50 and 60 Amps. It also says that at the 40 configuration it draws 26 amps of power and the heater will not work if either of the jet pumps is running or if the blower is running. My read is that the heater would be off while the pumps are running and that when the pumps are off the heater would run.

Thanks for passing the 40 amp info. Does this mean that a thirty amp line from the generator would not work. Seems like it ought to work if it only draws 26 amps. (?)

jmh · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2006, 05:52:51 pm »

Electrician came and took a look for setting up the wiring. He said the generator would not work because it is too small. It's a 5000 watt Honda and according to the electrician it would only put out twenty amps at 240 volt.

Thats not enough so I am abandoning the generator project.

Chas · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2006, 06:01:06 pm »

Well, bummer. If you end up needing to protect the spa in an ice storm, you can still run the circ pump, or simply put a worklight in the motor compartment and cover it all up.

That could be done with an extension cord from the genny. If you want to run the circ pump, buy a recepticle to match the power cord on the circ pump, and make up a power cord with that on the end, long enough to reach into the genny.

chaunceyboyblu · « **Reply #12 on:** May 14, 2006, 10:56:05 am »

we live in nw montana and we filed our tub in the middle of the winter when the temp was way below zero. i had not drained the three big pumps properly because the lines were so hard to remove. i did properly drain the circ pump that was easy. anyway, we had been gone for two months, so the pumps were very frozen. after filling it i started the pumps and nothing worked. it took me about a week to fix it, i had to to replace several fuses that ace hardware had, they cost less than a dollar. i put a 1500 watt little ceramic cheap heater in the inside pointed towards the pumps and a stock tank heater suspended in the water, i put two zip wire ties to the cover with it half open. i think that is 1500 watts, but has a t stadt internal that only comes on around mid 30 deg. they cost around 50 bucks. it is a really easy way to do it.

jmh · « **Reply #13 on:** May 14, 2006, 12:39:19 pm »

Thanks guys for the helpful info. It is a bummer that the generator is too small but at least this sounds like a good work around.

Chaunceyboyblu.......what is a zip wire tie? What cover are you attaching it to?

Thanks for the info.

chaunceyboyblu · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2006, 11:48:24 pm »

you know those nylon wire tie things that make a zip sound when you close them. i put the heater pretty much right in the middle. i cut two small slits in the cover material where it overlaps past the seam and ran the tie in and out there, then put another on the stock tank heater and then a third putting them together. it takes only a couple minutes, and they are cheap. you could just run a cord from your gen to both heaters.

Hot Tub Forum · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2006, 11:48:24 pm »

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