Lost in filtration

[drewstar]

Term... you know I love you, BUT... if I remember correctly that is not what Karl's water started like.  His water was clear and then he added something to shock it and then it looked like that.  It might not be much different, but IMHO I don't think you are comparing apples to apples and should make such cut throat conclusions.    

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Karl had a chemical reaction.

Tattoolady had particulate matter in her water.


So I agree with Brook.

Are we comparing apples and oranges here?

[East_TX_Spa]

How many microns does the TRI-X filter?

If no one answers by the time I get back to work tomorrow, I'll find out.  I really don't know.

Terminator

[Bonibelle]

Luv2b, Your post mentioned something that you see has not even been touched on in this thread..Filtration in microns...that's because the filtration in hot tubs is basically a type of gross filtration..Can you imagine how long a 0.02 would last in the iron water? So that kind of puts everything in perspective because the filtration in a hot tub is actually gross filtration, removing particles, hair, belly button lint...etc. microbiological control is achieved with good water management, ozone etc.
And as you can see, dissolved matter like iron particles are sequestered with chemical agents and removed with the pleated filters.  The T-ladies tub was a great visual example but it also required the use of chemical agents that help the filters remove the iron. Sorry Term, but I don't think that you can draw any conclusions between T-Ladys tub and Karl's since you don't really know what you started with...and by that I mean the entire composition of the water and disolved minerals.
You get an "F" today for Filtration Science  , sorry

[East_TX_Spa]

Is iron iron?  If it is not, then what is it?  Is it in the water to begin with and not visible to the naked eye?  Is it not present until shock is added?  Or is it in the water, visible, and removed via filtration?

I think I'll stick with what I've got until shown otherwise.  If I'm off base, I'll own up to it.

Terminator

[salesdvl]

If no one answers by the time I get back to work tomorrow, I'll find out.  I really don't know.

Terminator

Cool, thanks.

[Mendocino101]

Mendo, mi amigo, I'm not sure I understand the gist of your post.

I was definitely deadly serious with my comments in my previous post.  The "Crappy Water" thread turned out to be THE most substantial thread I've seen yet in 1.5 years on this forum.

And based on T-Lady's comments, she did nothing extraordinary to her water other than clean the filters while Karl XIII tried a litany of recommended chemical methods and his water actually got worse.

For simplicity, I offer this:

T-Lady's starting water in her HotSpring Spa:


T-Lady's ending water after 3-5 days (not specified) filtration:


Karl XIII's starting water in his Caldera Spa:


Karl XIII's ending water after 2 days treatment and filtration:


To my strictly logical way of thinking, this filtration debate begins and ends right here.

Terminator

lol.....well...it depends it just might open up a whole new debate as to why a hi flow system that uses no pass on the low speed could be the way to go.....but I was just trying to suggest that the Sea Klear stuff is a great product that really does work and since its organic you will not hurt anything....

[Bonibelle]

Minerals can be dissolved in the water and depending on pH, and other minerals that they may be combined with, will or will not precipitate out.  Karl's water could have iron but it may take the chemical reaction of chlorine to allow it to become visible. Products that  sequester the iron and minerals are probably  more critical to really getting all the iron out.  Filtration time is another variable that was not considered in the experiment . So- no way can we compare Karl's tub to T-Lady's.  

[East_TX_Spa]

lol.....well...it depends it just might open up a whole new debate as to why a hi flow system that uses no pass on the low speed could be the way to go.....but I was just trying to suggest that the Sea Klear stuff is a great product that really does work and since its organic you will not hurt anything....

Okee Dokee!

Terminator

[Drewski]

Minerals can be dissolved in the water and depending on pH, and other minerals that they may be combined with, will or will not precipitate out.  Karl's water could have iron but it may take the chemical reaction of chlorine to allow it to become visible. Products that  sequester the iron and minerals are probably  more critical to really getting all the iron out.  Filtration time is another variable that was not considered in the experiment . So- no way can we compare Karl's tub to T-Lady's.  

I'm not sold that the two situations are different, in fact they may be the same thing but just require different solutions (sorry, Bonibelle  :-/, I like your line of thinking from these posts, however).

As Bonibelle suggested, Karl's situation occurred as the result of a chemical reaction. Accordingly, I'd imagine the density of the particulate suspended in the water to be VERY small. Nevertheless, because there's a LOT of it, it creates the color and clarity shift we see.

BUT, as Term suggested, Lady's tub OBVIOUSLY has something suspended in the water and, based on how "dark" it is, one could even describe it as "sediment" (God help ya 'Lady if you go through airport metal detectors after drinking that stuff...). It got there from being suspended in the water originally, NOT from a chemical reaction. So, again, we see a color and clarity shift.

So why did one clear up and the other didn't? Two reasons in my opinion -- the reaction in Karl's tub continued causing more particulate that may have been below filtration size while the particulate in 'Lady's tub did not continue to be produced and got caught by the filters and cleared.

I'm betting Karl could have "super" dosed his tub with a clarifying agent (something that creates a coagulation of suspended particles better known as “flocculent”) that would have caused that stuff to clump and filter out. I'm reminded of another thread a year or so ago where the water was tinged green and "super" dosing produced green flocculent in the filters proving something WAS "there." I'm thinking maybe why it was a continual problem was because copper was being produced as a result of chemical reactions occurring in the tub??  

Food for thought....

Drewski

[Bonibelle]

Drwski, that makes sense to me and it also may help answer the original question in the thread, about the particle size of the filters. Follow this logic....Hot Springs uses multiple filters (is it 5 in T-lady's tub?) so could the tri-X filters have a finer filtration with respect to the size of particles that can be filtered out (and that is why more filters are required to achieve the no bipass and keep the pumps running?) I am really curious to see if anyone finds a micron filtration rating on any of the filters, because I just think of them as being gross filters and the micron filters that I am familiar with are used to sterilize liquids

[anne]

I am really curious to see if anyone finds a micron filtration rating on any of the filters, because I just think of them as being gross filters and the micron filters that I am familiar with are used to sterilize liquids

I dont know anything about tri-x, but here's some stuff on standard unicel pleated filters and the disposable type that some people use. I'm still trying to decide if the Micropure will work for me, or really make a difference.

Micropure: 1 micron filtering, "94% efficient"
50sq ft pleated: 70 microns, "40% efficient"

I'm not suggesting that the disposables are the way to go, just throwing those numbers out for reference. I also dont know how those percentages are calculated. This is from hottubessentials.com

[Vinny]

I would think that a pump's efficiency would decrease IF the micron rating was too small. Filters start working better as they trap debris into their "holes", a 50 micron filter will filter smaller and smaller particles as it clogs up. Eventually it stops letting fluids (or air) through because the filter "holes" are too small.

My tub's filters are pleated, I don't know their micron size and my water is usually crystal clear unless I forget a dichlor dose. In a hospital setting they generally will have 3 or 4 filters of varying microns in a row and all of them eventually get clogged depending on the stuff in the water. The filters are put in series to protect the smallest micron filter size. I have seen water filters clog in 2 weeks because of the garbage in drinking water and this was in the 0.5 to 3 micron range.

Are the Tri- x filters spun type filters of are they pleated? Are these the ones that are supposed to be thrown into a dishwasher?

I find it almost impossible to believe that a tub's filter in  a 1 micron or less range would last any amount of time or be reusable after cleaning organic waste.

[anne]

I find it almost impossible to believe that a tub's filter in  a 1 micron or less range would last any amount of time or be reusable after cleaning organic waste.

The DONT last if you abuse them: I found this out. They are designed with bigger to smaller "holes" as you described, so that the water first goes through larger micron openings, eventually down to 1 micron.

With these, you cannot use enzymes, clarifiers, even stain and scale products. They "gunk" up the pores, and cannot be washed.

[salesdvl]

Did anyone come up with the answer ?

[East_TX_Spa]

Did anyone come up with the answer ?

I've got one of the little people working on it.  As soon as I know, I'll post it.

I'm guessing maybe 47 microns.  Any other guesses?

Terminator