Drewski needs help with upgrades!

[Drewski]

Hi All:

Well, my Piper Glenn is turning 7 this year and it's reached the point I need to do some work on it.  It seems I always have "problems" during the winter, so I'm planning on doing replacements during this summer.

Last year, I replaced the main board (thanks to dealers on this forum who helped me). My control pack is a Gecko MSPA-4 with 5.5KW heater capacity, 3 therapy pumps, circ pump, ozone, multiple lights, etc.  A circuit diagram is attached below.

This year I'd like to do the following:

• Replace the cover. The cover is heavily water logged and because of my current set-up, getting quite a bit of abuse. I'd like to get a new cover and add a lifter with short clearance capability. I have about 14" between my tub and the fence, meaning the lifter would need to operate in this distance. Suggestions on a cover and lifter?
  
  
• Replace the Ozonator. I'm pretty certain my ozonator stopped working about a year ago, when I suddenly noticed a significant difference in water quality. My old one is a UV model running 120VAC. I operate the circ pump and ozone continuously, meaning unless I change settings I'd have almost 9,000 HRS on the ozone system per year. If I switch to CD with modules, how often would I need to change the chip/module? Also, any recommendation for a ozone/CD unit?  
  
  
• Replace the Circ Pump. My Grundfos 115 VAC circ pump is coming up on 50,000 HRS of use and it's occasionally making strange sounds. One issue I've had with the tub is that during cold weather the temperature of the water doesn’t "recover" as fast as I'd like and I've heard the suggestion to replace the circ pump with one that has a higher GPH rating. Recommendations?
  
  
• Replace the Heater. My Gecko board is rated for a 5.5 KW heater, but Artesian installed only a 4 KW model. I did some amperage measuring when the tub was on and even with both pumps, the circ pump, ozone and heater operating, total load was just at 30 AMPs on the 50 AMP GFCI circuit.  The 4 KW heater accounted for 15 AMPs of this load and I'm figuring that upgrading this to 5.5 KW would mean a 20-22 AMP load, still under the 40 AMP (80% of rating) limit. I'm thinking that by upgrading the heater and the circ pump, my "recovery" time in cold weather would be better. Thoughts and recommendations?
  
  
• Replace some Jets. Some of my jets are "frozen" and do not rotate, undoubtedly because of sand. My diverter valves also are hard to operate under pressure and have some obvious scoring in them when I pull and look inside. I have no idea how to remove/replace either of these or what tools to use, etc. Suggestions and/or help?

Anyway, I'll be doing this work myself on the weekends and I'm planning on starting in June.  Any help ya'll could give would be highly appreciated!

As always, THANKS!

Drewski

[hymbaw]

Cover - I'd go with Sunstar, they are great covers.

Lift - Sounds like a Covermate III would be ideal

[Brewman]

Check out the covers offered on Doc's site.
I'm quite sure I'll be getting my replacement there.  Seems like you get a lot for the money, and shipping is included in his prices.  

[J._McD]

Check out the covers offered on Doc's site.
I'm quite sure I'll be getting my replacement there.  Seems like you get a lot for the money, and shipping is included in his prices.  

With all due respect to both yourself and Doc's site, but based on the many debates witnessed on this site and the recommendations to not only feel, sit in and wet test various Hot Tub choices, how can you evaluate and endorse something sight unseen.

We get calls every day for covers and the first question is about price.  Again there are "quality" manufacturers and there are inexpensive covers.  Even the "quality" manufacturers sell lower grade materials in their covers as an option for cheaper prices.  The problem with buying on the internet is that you get what you got, and you get it without seeing it or touching it to know how good or not so good it is and what else is there to compare it to.

Again, this is not a slam on anyone or thing, and there are a lot of different cover makers out there.  Even doc's site offers different cost options.  I am sure dealers have covers available through their manufacturers, why is it that one should assume you can get a better cover or price by not checking out your dealer first.

Don't get me wrong brewman, I am not trying to sell you or anybody else a cover, but I would encourage people to shop for a cover the same as they would shop for a spa, and that would not necessarily be on the internet.  There are still warranty issues to consider and the dealer can often be a better choice.

[drewstar]

With all due respect to both yourself and Doc's site, but based on the many debates witnessed on this site and the recommendations to not only feel, sit in and wet test various Hot Tub choices, how can you evaluate and endorse something sight unseen.

We get calls every day for covers and the first question is about price.  Again there are "quality" manufacturers and there are inexpensive covers.  Even the "quality" manufacturers sell lower grade materials in their covers as an option for cheaper prices.  The problem with buying on the internet is that you get what you got, and you get it without seeing it or touching it to know how good or not so good it is and what else is there to compare it to.

Again, this is not a slam on anyone or thing, and there are a lot of different cover makers out there.  Even doc's site offers different cost options.  I am sure dealers have covers available through their manufacturers, why is it that one should assume you can get a better cover or price by not checking out your dealer first.

Don't get me wrong brewman, I am not trying to sell you or anybody else a cover, but I would encourage people to shop for a cover the same as they would shop for a spa, and that would not necessarily be on the internet.  There are still warranty issues to consider and the dealer can often be a better choice.

Your point is well taken, but do you have a recomendation?, I think  that's all brewman was trying to do.


/ask for the forum discount.  

[Drewski]

Thanks Brewman and J.Mc_D.

I've bought stuff from Doc before and I'm very happy with his products. I've also had PM conversations with him concerning his covers and know that he uses CNC machinary for production.  I'd be very comfortable buying from him and compared to local suppliers he's cheaper.

Drewski

[Brewman]

I think  that's all brewman was trying to do.


/ask for the forum discount.  

You nailed it.  I figured Drewski was already going to check locally, especially at his dealer, or others in his area.  

I will be getting a new cover pretty soon, too.  The factory one I got from my dealer is 3 years old and is waterlogged.  And they are asking top dollar for another just like it.  So I know where I stand with that.
I've also researched Doc's covers, and I like what I saw.
I consider him a credible source for many reasons- his participation here without pushing his own agenda, testimonials from many satisfied customers.

I can get a cover with the options I want from Doc for less money than my dealer will sell me the same cover I've already got.  They don't offer anything else.  


Would I get a spa site unseen?  No way Jose.
But I don't put covers, lifters, filters, chemicals, etc...
if the same category.  
And sorry to say, money and getting what I want are factors, and here is where my dealer can't or won't compete.

They get plenty of my business in other ways.

[Vinny]

My Artesian cover isn't the best. Don't know if it's supposed to be but my cover is about 3" larger than my tub, it's a Cal Cover.

I would buy a cover from Doc ... have bought other supplies from him as well.  I also would be a little concerned about walking into a dealer other than an Artesian dealer, giving measurements and hoping I get a good or great cover. Based on the info on Doc's site his covers seem to be a lot better than what I got.

Covermate 3 is a nice lifter, Drewski - if you want to see a photo of it in action, let me know.

I would try replacing the ozonator with a CD unit - can you change the times on how long your ozone runs? New Artesian's with circ pumps can. Maybe add 20 extra feet of tubing to keep the off gassing from happening. Doc sells them also.

As far as the circ pump, you just replaced the filters and this might give you better heat trasfer but look into the 2004 model year circ pump. I think they were 120 V (new ones are 220V) and pumped 11 GPM (at least they advertised that)

If you have Waterway jets - go to waterway plastics and they have on-line PDF of their jets (a bit of a pain to look at but go to pgs 16-20 I think). They also list dealers.

As far as your diverter - I think it's all done by O rings (2) - buy new ones grease them up you should be fine.

[Bonibelle]

I also have a CovermateIII lifter and love it. Saturday night we had a really bad rain storm but wanted to use the tub anyway. We were able to tilt the cover so that it was leaning slightly over the end of the tub and then we could slide Doc's spa blanket down to make a little awning!  It was awsome because it poured buckets and we were under our little tent enjoying the tub and not getting our heads wet in the 50 degree rain!  That's what you have to do when you don't have a pergola with a retractable cover  :-/  

[TN__HOT_TUB]

I also have a CovermateIII lifter and love it. Saturday night we had a really bad rain storm but wanted to use the tub anyway. We were able to tilt the cover so that it was leaning slightly over the end of the tub and then we could slide Doc's spa blanket down to make a little awning!  It was awsome because it poured buckets and we were under our little tent enjoying the tub and not getting our heads wet in the 50 degree rain!  That's what you have to do when you don't have a pergola with a retractable cover  :-/  

I just got my tub and really haven't had a chance to jump in while it's raining, but I've been asking myself what I'll do when the chance arises.

I'm thinkng about a wide brimmed hat?  Sombrero, cowboy hat, booney, bucket, etc.

[Bonibelle]

We tried the hats, and in a nice gentle rain they would have worked fine. I am talking about monsoon type rain. Like buckets....of water....It was so cool!

[NJDave]

Drewski,
When replacing your Artesian Heater, be sure to replace with the same, a 4 KW Heater. With a low flow Grundfos Circ Pump, you can not install a 5.5 KW Heater. It will burn up, due to lower flow output from the Gundfos.
At 7 Years, I would agree, that your UV Ozonator is bad. You can replace it with any UV or CD Ozonator, just remember to purchase one with the same voltage and plug configuration.
As for the Wateway Jets, they also can be puchased on line or from your local dealer, the internals are inexpensive and take seconds to pop out and replce.
For the cover, Doc offers a real nice cover at tough price to beat. I also like Sunstar Covers.
As for the replacement of the Grundfos Pump, you may want to replace with the same. Your Grundfos Pumps, is plumbed with 3/4" Tubing, which is proper for that pump. If you install a larger Circ Pump, it will usually require larger plumbing, like 1 1/2". I would stick with the same Circ Pump, to avoid problems. Besides, adding a larger Circ Pump will not heat your water faster. You have a 4 KW Heater, that will heat on average about 6 degrees per hour. A 5.5 KW will heat on average about 8 degrees per hour. Spas equipped with a Circ Pump, come with a 4KW Heater. Goodluck. Dave.

[Drewski]

Hi NJDave and thanks to others who have also replied...

Dave, the circ pump is at the heart of my issue. At most, my 500 gal piper glen will only maintain my water temp in the winter when the cover is off, people are in it and it's running the pumps. So, at 30^o to 40^o exterior temp, I'll maintain whatever the water temp is when I get in. At 20^o to 30^o, I start losing about 1^o per hour, even with everything running. When the wind is blowing, it's worse. At best, it heats water at 2^o per hour with the cover on following a fill.

From what I'm hearing you say, the Grundfos is producing maximum water pressure for the diameter of the hose connecting the pump, heater, suction port and discharge and increasing the pressure further will result in no further increase in flow?  I don't know the GPH rating for the Grundfos but I have to tell you that it's producing less flow than I'd get from a garden hose of the same diameter. I certainly appreciate what your saying (and thank you for responding), BUT, I gotta ask, do you have any numbers to back up what your saying? Please don't take me wrong, I appreciate your advice, but I just have a hard time believing that I can't increase the pressure in that line by increasing GPH output , thus allowing me to convert to a 5.5 KW heater.

VINNY: (HI Bro) Could you do me a favor and check the diameter of your circ pump hose and then check to see if you have a 5.5 KW heater in your Artesian? Any other "newer" Piper Glen owners also? I know Artesian switched to 5.5 KW heater elements sometime after 2000 (and I think it's because of the problem I describe) and I'd appreciate any other verification.

BTW, for new readers who don't know me, my closest Artesian dealer is > 150 miles away. My dealer went bust 2 years after he sold me the tub, so I'm doing all my own work.

THANKS!

Drewski

[Vinny]

My cir pump is a huge 220V circ pump ... so I'm not sure if it applies to your situation.

I think Dave is talking about current models too. My Cayman looses heat too in the winter and it also heats at a slow 3-5 degrees an hour (compared to the 8 that Dave mentioned). With the circ pump upgrade they put in the Piper's heater. If you go onto Artesian's website my heater is the long skinny one that they show.

I will try to check it ... how do you do that?

2004 had the 11 GPM 120 V circ pump but what Dave said is true, faster will make the water come out cooler since it runs past the heater quicker. Slower would have hotter water but would move less water.

[Drewski]

Thanks Vinny, yep you're right. Sorry about that.

OK, from what I can tell, the Grundfos I have uses a 1" barb fitting and is rated for 570 GPH.  This means I turn over the water volume of the tub roughly one time per hour.  The heating element of my current heater is a 4 KW model.

From research, I'm looking at a Waterway "Tiny Might" circ pump, also with 1" barbs, that's rated at 1080 GPH, basically double my current pump. I've also identified a Brett Aqualine 5.5 KW or Gecko replacement 5.5 KW, both matching the description of my current heater except 5.5 KW instead of 4 KW, as potential replacement heaters.  

In comparative terms, this would result in a 90% increase in circulation volume and 38% increase in heating capacity, both assuming no loss from work and friction.  I remember last year that Stewart recommended upgrading the circ pump to address my issue, but he wasn't too optimistic about the heater.

I wish I could get some more tech guys to comment on this thread...

THANKS again Vinny...

Drewski