Full foam efficiency observation

[drewstar]

my appologies, I meant to say end the TP FF debate.  Not paranoid, however, the drugs that I tried in college keep coming back in my system.  

I saw Tman after your post and just jumped to that, I believe it was infact a case of misktaken identity, however, I would still really like that hat.

No Problem.  Sorry If I got defensive.  Kumbaya and all that.  Attack me, but don't blindside me please.

But  i would like some decent data.  I go over to numbnuts site and see what he's discussing and I get really peeved what he passes as fact and data ...cripesake. It makes us look like MIT scientists.

 

[bosco0633]

what info would you like to see.  This is all subjective and I cant control for the obvious reasons, weather, or replicate other variables for a full foam.  This is just for piece of mind, based on current weather and the tub open.  Thats it.  I dont know how sound it will be but its worth a shot.

[drewstar]

I know we don't have the means to do this but...

What is the average temp in the air space,

how hot does it get?

I would like to see data on fridgid cold nights,  top open,  a meter on the heater,  a meter on the pumps,  a thermometer in the cabinet and a thermometer in the water.  I'd like this compared to a FF tub set up the same.

[Vinny]

Here's another thing to think about ... for 11 hours 59 minutes and 30 seconds my three therapy pumps are sitting in an uninsulated cavity getting cold. For 30 seconds every 12 hours my tub blows this cold water and air into the insulated vessel to clear the lines ... BRRR!!

So if my tub lost power and it came on before the 2 inch pipes froze solid, the tub will do this every 12 hours. Actually if it triggered the freeze protection then my pumps will operate once an hour until frozen solid.

This statement I made is untrue, i realized that my circ pump has a 1/2" or 3/4" line running to all the pumps and I believe I get some flow of water through it.

[spahappy]

I know we don't have the means to do this but...

What is the average temp in the air space,

 how hot does it get?

 I would like to see data on fridgid cold nights,  top open,  a meter on the heater,  a meter on the pumps,  a thermometer in the cabinet and a thermometer in the water.  I'd like this compared to a FF tub set up the same.

 
 

Why would we need to monitor all that. Why not pick two tubs in the same area with roughly the same useage and gallons and put them on a dedicated meter. We could compile the data over several months.

I'm sure if I offered an in-store chemical credit, I could find a Jacuzzi and a Coleman customer of mine that would participate in our study. It would be worth every penny to put end end to this debate....

[Vinny]

OK, It's 6:00 PM and the tubs at 88 F, thats 53 1/2 hours. It's colder than I anticipated and the wind has kicked up ... I ain't changing the water tonight.

[NJDave]

The truth is, the success of Thermo Pane concept is based upon the tub running.  The open air space is being heated by the heat coming off the pumps, plain and simple. The warm air created by motors operating offset, the cold air rushing into the cabinet, due to a lack of insulation. The trouble comes when their is a power outage or GFCI Breaker Trip, due to a electrical short in the spa. Then the truth comes out. Thermo Pane insulated spas, whether it be the cut 3/4" styro foam panel attached to the cabinet or the 1/4 " thick aluminum foil, will do very little to keep the cold air from flooding into the entire spa cainet, exposing all of the plumbing, pumps and equipment. As a service tech, I can tell TP is the huge looser, if the spa is dead. With a dead spa, with temps in the 20's, the pipes or equipment, is frozen in 24 hours. And you can not just judge, by sticking a thermometer in your water, because half of that is your cover is doing a good job, keeping temperatures up. Your water temperature up top could be 50 degrees, but the water in your pipes could be frozen. I deal with it all winter. The comparison, you are doing with Bosco, is not equall. You are both turning down you temp settings, but he is benefiting from the heat coming off the motors on the set cycles. Just like a light bulb, a running motor produces a lot of heat.The only real test, is to turn off the breaker and shut down the spa and cover up. Now you will see if Aluminum foil or an entire cavity filled with foam is better. And remember a good fitting spa cover will keep upper water temps pretty good, what is in your pipes underneath, water or icebergs? TP does a decent job of when the spa is running, not as good as Full, but sufficient. When the spa is not running, the difference is so extreme, like a JV High School Football Team playing a NFL Team. Call it my opinions, but it comes from 20 years of experience repairing frozen spas and saving spas while freezing or about to freeze. If you are fully foamed, you are protected, if your not, your not.

[Vinny]

The truth is, the success of Thermo Pane concept is based upon the tub running.  The open air space is being heated by the heat coming off the pumps, plain and simple. The warm air created by motors operating offset, the cold air rushing into the cabinet, due to a lack of insulation. The trouble comes when their is a power outage or GFCI Breaker Trip, due to a electrical short in the spa. Then the truth comes out. Thermo Pane insulated spas, whether it be the cut 3/4" styro foam panel attached to the cabinet or the 1/4 " thick aluminum foil, will do very little to keep the cold air from flooding into the entire spa cainet, exposing all of the plumbing, pumps and equipment. As a service tech, I can tell TP is the huge looser, if the spa is dead. With a dead spa, with temps in the 20's, the pipes or equipment, is frozen in 24 hours. And you can not just judge, by sticking a thermometer in your water, because half of that is your cover is doing a good job, keeping temperatures up. Your water temperature up top could be 50 degrees, but the water in your pipes could be frozen. I deal with it all winter. The comparison, you are doing with Bosco, is not equall. You are both turning down you temp settings, but he is benefiting from the heat coming off the motors on the set cycles. Just like a light bulb, a running motor produces a lot of heat.The only real test, is to turn off the breaker and shut down the spa and cover up. Now you will see if Aluminum foil or an entire cavity filled with foam is better. And remember a good fitting spa cover will keep upper water temps pretty good, what is in your pipes underneath, water or icebergs? TP does a decent job of when the spa is running, not as good as Full, but sufficient. When the spa is not running, the difference is so extreme, like a JV High School Football Team playing a NFL Team. Call it my opinions, but it comes from 20 years of experience repairing frozen spas and saving spas while freezing or about to freeze. If you are fully foamed, you are protected, if your not, your not.

Actually the comparison "just happened", it wasn't a challenge. I had my inspection, saw the foam and decided "change the water". Unfortunately as what usually happens to me is that I ran out of time and I lowered the heater (why heat the water I'm going to change) and forgot. I went out this morning and saw the lower temps and realized my heater was turned down and since I knew what time it was when I turned it down and the weather we were having, I thought it was impressive.

I'm not stupid enough (OK I really am) to throw the breaker in the winter ... You see I won't go out there in the 28 F temps with wind to change the water, tommorrow is supposed to be mid 30's!

[Tman122]

I saw Tman after your post and just jumped to that, I believe it was infact a case of misktaken identity, however, I would still really like that hat.

What about my apology. I have never slammed Arctic either. And if you can find a post where I did I would be more than happy to give you mine. I have disected there sales approach and questioned there superiority, because I know they simply are not superior to a bunch of other brands.

I know Bosco you don't like me for this and frankly I could care less. I have owned 7 different tubs and worked on 50-100 different brands. There sales approach a few years back was a plain and simple lie. I found holes in the ARC study but will never get an Arctic owner that was convinced of there superiority by said study to ever admit they were decieved. There a fine tub I will say it again. But they are no better than several brands on the market and not as good a value as a few. Did you hear that I said it was a fine brand.

So here's sticking my tongue out at you!

[Vinny]

I got to say ... this thread really shouldn't be going this way ... can't we all get along!

[NJDave]

Nice Tongue Tman.
Vinny, obviously we don't want anyone to turn their breaker off, but that is the real test, to prove which method will keep the cold air out and protect the plumbing. It's cold out in Jersey tonight, turn up the heat and get into hot water and enjoy. Dave.

[Vinny]

Dave,

My tub looks like a washing machine! There's so much foam it's unbelieveable.

I'm draining that sucker tommorrow and putting fresh non foamed water.

I made it to 2 months, 15 extra days ... I'm getting the hang of this water changing. I'll get up early and get it drained, refilled and heating by hopefully 10 AM. Unless my siphon hose gets a hole in it (I think it already has one). Then 12 hours later or so ... soakin'!

[NJDave]

Vinny,
You have got to get a pump like mine. It is electric, with a 2" discharge hose. It will pump out your Grand Cayman out in 5 minutes. It really saves us a lot of time in the field everyday. Sometimes we have to drain 4 or 5 tubs in a day, for repairs or drain and clean service. If you start refilling before lunch tomorrow, you'll be in hot water tomorrow night. Enjoy. Dave.

[Vinny]

This is going to be my final post on this subject ... maybe.

At 7:00 AM with the air temp at about 27 F and I will assume the overnight temps were a little lower, my tub is at 84 F.

My conclusion is: my tub, an Artesian Cayman, a full foam tub in temps ranging in the 20's to mid 30's, will hold it's temp above freezing for at least a week. It dropped 18 F in 64 hours (about 2 1/2 days).

Other thoughts: NJDave with A LOT more experence than I stated about temps above and below the seating area and I will say that I agree to what he said.

A couple of things I would like to point out about my tub and NJDave or anybody please feel free to shoot holes into my therory ... this is how I learn.

My tub does have tubes that are off the circ pump running to all the pumps (I don't know about my 3rd therapy pump though) that keeps the water above freezing by circulating some water into the pipes. My tub clears it's water from it's pipes every 12 hours so it would exchange the water in the plumbing with fresh warm water unless the water in the pump frooze. I believe my tub gets a little boost from solar heating as it gets about 7 hours of winter sunlight whenever the sun shines.

I now have the piece of mind that IF my heater goes out and it maintains electric, my tub will not freeze solid.

OK, I'm done!

[HotTubMan]

NJDave, the  thing I don't like about what you wrote above is that you come off like a FF customer has zero to worry about in a power outage or equipment failure. A FF tubs equipement area is less protected than that of a TP like Coleman or Arctic. Using your logic, both will keep the tub water warm. The FF plumbing between the tub and equipment is better protected, but the equipment in the FF is at risk faster than the TP in a prolonged power outage or equipment failure.