Question about GFI's

[Vinny]

Although this is not exactly tub related, I think it may be. I tell you, I come up with real winners as far as "problems"!

Has anyone seen a tub's ozonator trip a GFI that was in the electrical panel that wasn't the tub's GFI? I am having a problem with a GFI that's next to the tub's breaker and I "think" it has to do with the ozonator.

My GFI will trip every so often and I'm perplexed at what it is ... I'm going to have it professionally looked at but I'm curious. It "worked" fine when installed, I played around with it a few times since it's been installed but it seems that something will trip it every so often. I reset it last night and it tripped in about 30 seconds (so I know there's not a dead short, I also checked with a continuity tester and hot to ground and neutral seems OK).

I reset it today and it's working. The only thing I can think of is it trips from noise on the line. I find it strange that it doesn't trip immediately when reset.

I'm home today so I guess I'll see what happens when the tub's ozonator kicks in.

Anyone with suggestions?

Thanks!

[windsurfdog]

Vinnmeister,

What does the GFI breaker control?  I'm assuming it is either a bathroom, kitchen, garage or exterior circuit.  I highly doubt that it is related to your tub's ozonator unless it is tripping your tub's GFI as well (though I've seen more weird things electrical--I had an active master's electrical license several years ago and practiced residential and commercial but not industrial installations). Though I don't think it has any bearing, is your tub breaker installed in the panel a GFI breaker or is your tub's GFI located in your disconnect?

[ggwagner]

We have heard of faulty or older GFI's doing as you descibe. You're right in getting an electrician to check it out, but my guess would be a faulty GFI.

[Vinny]

windsurfdog,

Thanks for your reply!

It controls 3 outside outlets (just installed) on the deck and a ceiling fan (rated for wet locations), it's 20 Amps and nothing besides the ceiling fan is attached to it yet ... and it's too D*#n cold to use it now - LOL. All the connections are in outdoor recepticles. I have turned on the ceiling fan and it's light 4 or 5 times before and it worked OK. Actually the GFI is working fine now, but it tripped last night.

The tub has a regular 50 Amp circuit breaker in the box and a GFI disconnect at the tub. Reading around and hearing some eletrician's precautions - it was a long run, almost 100' so I did it that way to avoid nusiance trips ... can this be the problem with this GFI (same general distance)?

Thanks Again!!!

[Vinny]

We have heard of faulty or older GFI's doing as you descibe. You're right in getting an electrician to check it out, but my guess would be a faulty GFI.

It is a new panel and a new GFI breaker (at least I think its a new breaker) - never know what happens in a store!

[windsurfdog]

It controls 3 outside outlets (just installed) on the deck and a ceiling fan (rated for wet locations), it's 20 Amps and nothing besides the ceiling fan is attached to it yet ... and it's too D*#n cold to use it now - LOL. All the connections are in outdoor recepticles. I have turned on the ceiling fan and it's light 4 or 5 times before and it worked OK. Actually the GFI is working fine now, but it tripped last night.

Perchance, was it raining/snowing last night?

The tub has a regular 50 Amp circuit breaker in the box and a GFI disconnect at the tub. Reading around and hearing some eletrician's precautions - it was a long run, almost 100' so I did it that way to avoid nusiance trips ... can this be the problem with this GFI (same general distance)?

I've seen these same posts.  I haven't bought into the idea entirely yet I bow to the expertise of those posters since most are speaking from experiences that I've not seen.  Because I'm in a salty air environment at the coast, I deliberately installed my GFI breaker in my panel and used a straight 50 amp 2 pole breaker in the disconnect.  My total run (#6 THHN Cu) is about 80 feet and I've had zero problems thus far......the GFI has been rock steady.

The most important thing about your 100' run is wire size and ampacity.  As a rule of thumb (that is, if you haven't got your electrical code book and calculator handy), 100' is the outside limit for most runs without upsizing the wire to compensate for voltage drop.  If you installed #4 THHN Cu for a 50 amp/2 pole circuit, you should be just fine.  Installing #6 THHN Cu might be pushing it a bit but probably will work without trouble.  Anything less is nothing but trouble.  If you run all of your pumps plus ensure the heater is on, grab a meter and check the voltage at the tub to see what it is under load.  If it measures less than 210 volts or so, the wire is undersized for the load.  Hopefully your voltage without load is somewhere around 240.

[salesdvl]

Vin,  I think its the brand of spa you bought.  Nothing but trouble !!    

[Brewman]

Make sure that moisture didn't get into that outdoor outlet box somehow.  That'd trip a GFI.  
If you spa isn't on the same circuit as the outlets, it shouldn't be impacting the other GFI.  

I'd focus on the wiring in the circuit where that the GFI is tripping, and on the GFI itself.  It's possible for the breaker to be defective- unlikely but possible.

There isn't anythign wrong with the way you wired your spa, and as long as your wiring is 6 awg copper or better, your run of 80' should be fine.

[Chris_H]

Not sure if this answers your question, but some ozonators can trip the breaker.  Some ozonators have thier own fuse/GFI built in to the unit.  If you tell us the make/model of the ozonator someone could probably help you.

[Vinny]

windsurfdog,

My first thought was moisture but can't think of where it would enter; ceiling fan is in center of the screen room, all outlets have gaskets on them and connections are in outside recepticles under the deck. I also thought that maybe the wind jostled the screen room and cut the insulation but I used BX and the GFI trips sometimes in 30 seconds to 1 minute and never right away so it's not a dead short. I didn't use an ohm meter but have a continuity meter and hot to neutral and hot to ground show nothing where ground to neutral lights up, so I know the tester is working.

My tub's GFI is fine and I think I came in at 90' of run for it. I believe (I wired the tub in June) that with everything running I was about 218 V at the disconnect. Tub has been working flawlessly since install except foam (bathing suits) and jets falling out.

After resetting the GFI this morning, which it worked, it tripped without the ozonator going ... so that therory is out. Maybe it's just a weak GFI!

[Vinny]

Vin,  I think its the brand of spa you bought.  Nothing but trouble !!    

You know, you keep on bringing this up - I bought this on YOUR recommendation ... I want a refund from you!

[Vinny]

Not sure if this answers your question, but some ozonators can trip the breaker.  Some ozonators have thier own fuse/GFI built in to the unit.  If you tell us the make/model of the ozonator someone could probably help you.

It's an Artesian Grand Cayman and It's all wired into the tub's 220V power. No problems with tub's electrical connections.

[Vinny]

Make sure that moisture didn't get into that outdoor outlet box somehow.  That'd trip a GFI.  
 If you spa isn't on the same circuit as the outlets, it shouldn't be impacting the other GFI.  

I'd focus on the wiring in the circuit where that the GFI is tripping, and on the GFI itself.  It's possible for the breaker to be defective- unlikely but possible.

I'll visually inspect the boxes and see, maybe take a hair dryer to them and "dry them out".

[Chas]

If you have a meter which is sensitive enough, you can 'lift' the ground and measure between the ground wire and ground. If you have more than 500 milliamps, the GFI will trip. If it's close to that amount, go through the various boxes and outlets until you find the one which is wet.

Don't overlook wire inside of conduit - we use a lot of PVC conduit around here and once it get water inside, it will stay wet for years. Then all it takes is a small crack or opening in the insulation and 'click' you have a frustrated homeowner.

[Vinny]

Thanks everybody for all your help!

I opened up the junction box and lo and behold - a puddle! Don't know how or why but it was about 1/3 full of ice. I took out the ol' hairdryer and dried it out. I'll be researching why this happened in the NEAR future. I guess since it was sometimes below freezing the ice acted like an insulator, then a little warmer and the ice melted a little - trip!

Thanks again!