Hot Tub rash, where does it come from?

[Brookenstein]

I've water skiied in the Willamette River, I'm not afraid of some hot tub.  

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Thanks for your input doc, we all find it helpful.  Your spelling did throw me aff a bit.  .

Odd, since all the scientific terms I posted (except for excema ) were copied and pasted from the CDC's website or other medical web sites........ Possibly your speaking of the words I enclosed in quotes? That was where I quoted you.

By the way, I went back and spell checked my posts in this thread and it looks like I only mispelled three words. "paticular,  excema  & messaage".......  Can ya tell me which one threw you off? It might help me in the future so as not to confuse you........

But it is not our job or our intent to assume what it is, diagnose it, identify it or treat the things you speak of, only to sanitize, not only for the reason why, but when to sanitize as well.  

The aforementioned is best left to medical doctors who are admittedly in "Practice" and their assumption is typically what they "think" it to be.  I have know many instances where the Hot Tub was blamed incorrectly for many different things that were not produced or picked up in the Hot Tub.  It is blamed only because it is a Hot Tub.

I believe we are in agreement on this. My previous post specifically said, "The ONLY way to truly determine the cause of a rash is to have a DOCTOR that is WILLING to take the time to do a PROPER diagnosis."

For the benefit of new Hot Tubbers, if the children are using the spa that is clean and clear of any bacteria, (an assumption for the moment if you will) and one of the children gets out to get his squirt gun and then gets back in, the child can and will infect the users in the Hot Tub with pseudomonas bacteria.  It is commonly found on the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it.  THIS IS WHEN WE NEED TO BE SURE THE SPA IS SANITIZED.

That statement, my friend, is screaming fire in a crowded building. You say "will infect the users in the Hot Tub with pseudomonas bacteria"...... and then "It is commonly found on the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it."

For the foregoing statement to be accurate, you would have to say it is ALYAYS found on EVERY BIT OF the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it...... You also have to assume that there's not enough sanitizer in the water to overcome the amount (regardless of how small) PA that's may, or as you claim IS brought back into the water.

Typically, the bacteria on our skin is common to one another in the immediate family, otherwise we would be sanitizing our lips before we kiss each other, BUT if you have an invited guest in the Hot Tub, you will have uninvited body bugs and again is a good time to be sure the sanitizer level is where it needs to be.

Doc, because pseudomonas is #1 and is the most common bacteria, do you have any information where these other bateria forms are picked up from to be introduced into the breeding ground of Hot Water?  That information would be both interesting and helpful.

I'm not quite sure what "bateria" is.

I think the point of this thread is to be aware of HOW these bacteria CAN be introduced into the water so that we can be a little more proactive and learn.  

Well J._McD, almost the entire point of my response to your original post is semantics. Your post made it sound like the only cause of hot tub rash is Pseudomonas aeruginosa, introduced by what they pick up on the bottom of their feet . I truly felt, and continue to feel, that without adding that that is not the only way for Pseudomonas to enter a spa, and in no way is that the only thing that can cause a hot tub related rash, is not only incorrect, but also a bit irresponsible....... I do understand you and I don't play well together, and I do apologize if you feel I was attacking you. This was never my intention. My only intention was to provide more complete information

Rather than to focus on the "cause" of the rash, I believe the source and how it is introduced is more beneficial to prevent the unintentional introduction or exposure, not the knowledge of it's existence or presence in society.

This is an interesting philosophy, one that I tend to agree with............. for BACTERIAL rashes. The thing is, I see way more posts on my forum from people who's rashes are not bacterially caused... Soooooo, I firmly believe that once someone gets a rash, it's important to have it properly diagnosed in order to determine how to correctly treat it and eliminate the actual cause.

[tony]

Which is why I don't believe in using products that are bacteriacides only without accompanying with dichlor.  There are many organisms that are not bacteria that can infest spa water.

Add to the list Giardia, the intestinal parasite, which is very prevalent.

[Bonibelle]

OK, Tony, I am guessing that the Giardia would have to be introduced by a tubbing guest? Or the introduction of untreated fill water? Is that right? I am interested that you say very prevalent, do you mean in the environment or in hot tubs? No one has mentioned E.Coli and while that is really a disgusting thought, isn't it a possibility?
Since we basically know WHAT could possibly get into the the tub, maybe if we concentrate more on how it gets there, we would better protect our water.
The bare feet thing hit my husband and me as being something to really think about. It is easy to resolve and yet we didn't focus on that at all.
I am still trying to understand the way that the sanitizers and shock work. Basically the constant introduction of sanitizer binds and destroys the contaminant and the levels of sanitizer can go up because it is being used by the distruction of the bacteria?..and then when you shock you oxidize the sanitizer and the levels should go down???is that right?
I think I need a visual of this because I don't understand how to tell if my bromine is high because it needs to be shocked or if it is high because I am overdosing the tub. Or am I totally confused on all of this and just lucky things have gone pretty well so far?

[tony]

Yes, from what I understand it would be introduced by a guest.  Caught this germ twenty some odd years ago in the Carribean in what I now understand to be a pool.  My body expelled the damn thing, if you know what I mean, but the others I was with brought it home and needed medication to get rid of it.  Last year there was a major outbreak of it at a local country club pool.  When I say prevalent, I mean it is not an obscure problem...it is present and out there and it is not bacteria.  "Giardia is the most frequent non bacterial cause of diarrhea is North America "(copied).

[tony]

With bromine, your sanitizer level is what counts and what does the work.  As the work gets done, the chemistry changes, but the spent bromine still works (unlike chlorine).  Shocking rearranges the chemistry again to unspent bromine and "oxidizes" the contaminants.  Shocking should raise your bromine level.

[drewstar]

Everything else........

In no paticular order, probably not all spelled correctly, and not a complete list;

sensitivity/allergy to chemicals
Grovers disease
unbalanced pH
schistosomes
Dermatitis
excema
Leptospirosis
Toxoplasmosis
Salmonella
Austrobilharzia variglandis
avian schistosome
ring worm

and of course, grizzly bears in the the hot tub.    

[J._McD]

I do understand you and I don't play well together, and I do apologize if you feel I was attacking you. This was never my intention. My only intention was to provide more complete[/b] information”

Why do you say this doc?  Is this your choice, or is it something that I have done, and know nothing about?  If you truly wanted to provide additional information, why have you not responded to my questions to supply some clarification and understanding?

I simply posted what I thought was an interesting subject for a post.  You have added to the list other medical terms with what appears to be your clinical expertise, it is certainly your prerogative to add complimentary information and it is welcomed. I even thanked you for your meaningful input.  You list scientific terms and nothing else, you provide no helpful information that indicates what they are, how you get them, where they can come from, what they look like or how common or likely they are to occur in the Hot Tub.  That would be contributing meaningful information, which is what I attempted to do with this post.  These scientific terms appear to be more bad things to fear, than adding to the general information of the post.

You seem to point out faults in others, such as myself.  If I have offended you in some way in this post, I do apologize, but you seem to have a personal issue here or a vendetta of some sort.  Is it something that I have said or done to you for you to say, “I do understand you and I don't play well together”, Is this just your personal choice? Then keep it to yourself and stay home.

Others did seem to indicate that it was a good post.  Yet again, even others indicate they did learn something from the discussion including myself.  One thing they did learn is that you do not seem to have any respect for me, or care much for me.  That is a shame, because you don’t even know me, and we have never met.  You told me quite clearly once before in a post, I was wrong about ozone, but as it turned out you were the one that was wrong.  You never did apologize and it would be meaningless now, but that is ok.  This might explain your vindictive manner toward me.  I am sorry if I offend you in any way.  I am sure you are a nice guy and do good things for others that benefit you as well.

If you wish to comment on my typing, spelling or lack of proof reading, you should not throw stones from your glass home

“I only mispelled three words” …… For the foregoing statement to be accurate, you would have to say it is ALYAYS found on EVERY BIT OF the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it......

there would be two ss’s in misspelled.  Then there is “ALYAYS”,

“Well J._McD, almost the entire point of my response to your original post is semantics.

At first you said, "My only intention was to provide more complete information”  But then, it appears your mission is to correct my language skills more than to contribute or provide meaningful information on the subject.  Why not just allow me to embarrass myself through my own inept language skills.  While I was complimenting your points and asking for more in-depth information from you, which, has not been forthcoming from you, you seem to be more adept at criticizing others than being a contributor to this thread or forum.

I challenge you to join hands with me and post 5 meaningful and educational threads that will benefit "newbies" "shoppers" and Hot Tubbers".  I have already acknowledged that you are a wealth of information and your resources are seemingly endless.

Peace.

[jsimo7]

The Doc makes some very good points that MANY things can cause a rash. I understood his point,"consider more than one thing MAY cause the problem". It didn't seem like he was attacking you J MCD. Things you two have disagreed about in the past may make you feel like he was aggressive. I didn't see that in his writing.

[Snowbird]

Hey, J._McD & Doc,

How about a truce?    We are supposed to be enjoying this and helping each other.

If you don't learn how to work and play well with each other the moderators are going to give both of you a timeout in the corner.  

Health Note
Did you know that in the human body there is a nerve that connects the eyeball to the anus? It is called the anal optic nerve. It is responsible for giving people a poopy outlook on life. If you don't believe it, pull a hair from your butt, and see if it doesn't bring a tear to your eye. [/i]

[East_TX_Spa]

Koom-by-ya'll, My Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll.....
Koom-by-ya'll, My Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll.....
Koom-by-ya'll, My Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll.....
Oh Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll............................

Now, be fruitful to one another.

Terminator

[Gomboman]

Wow, this was great information but I'm more confused now than I was before I read it. I'm still not sure if you  can catch Pseudomonas from dirty spa water? Maybe it's spread from another person or from some dog sh*t on the lawn? I'm still confused.

Has anyone on this forum ever had Pseudomonas? Was it life threatening or just a minor rash that was easily treated? It's a miracle I didn't catch anything like this in my bachelor days.........

[Bonibelle]

Gomboman, I am sorry if I contributed to your confusion. I think some of what we can take away from this thread is that there are many things that could possibly contaminate our spa water. I seriously doubt that you will get pseudo contamination from a guest in your tub, as it is usually found in standing water (like in your garden hose or birdbath, stuff like that). The organism is able to form a slimy coating on the colonies (millions and millions of cells) and therefore is sometimes resistant to sanitization. It also grows best in warm temperatures. I guess having too many friends in your tub and not enough sanitizer to offset all the skin bacteria could allow the pseudo to flurish so,indirectly, a number of folks in your tub could contribute to it. Pseudomonas, however, is not considered normal skin flora (the microbes that we typically have on healthy people like staph or some strep organisms or micrococcus...and many more) Apparently these organisms are very easily destroyed by the sanitizers.
Walking in "stuff" and then getting into your tub could introduce all kinds of contamination and this thread really got me thinking about how we walk out the door across the same  mat that we wipe our dirty shoes on. So by wearing flip flops to the tub, we can reduce that possibility.  If you haven't been bothered by any hot tub rash, you are probably doing everything right with your water from a microbical standpoint and from a chemical balance standpoint.  

[Snowbird]

Boni,

None of us think much about the hoses we use to fill or top off our tubs and your comment got me thinking about the stagnant water in it.

When working outside I will get a drink out of that hose since I am much too dirty to go inside.  If I don't let the water run to flush that stagnant water out, it tastes horrible and actually smells musty.  Don't know what's in there, but I don't want it in my tub.

Since my tub is on the second floor it will be a simple matter to use a dedicated hose (they're much cheaper than medicine and doctor's visists) and drain it after each use.

[st18901]

Boni,

Since my tub is on the second floor it will be a simple matter to use a dedicated hose (they're much cheaper than medicine and doctor's visists) and drain it after each use.

I sure hope you mean draining the hose, not the tub.