Woohoo!

[razoruk]

Some of you may remember this thread...

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1134612554

Well we finally made our decision and our Caldera Tahitian Utopia  is on order.

We paid $6895 for it with a covermate assist and full containers of off the shelf chemicals for it rather than the typical starter kit. We are getting a 2006 model (no idea as of yet what differences there are from the 05).

Only bad (good depending how you look at it) news I had is when the Electrician came out we have to upgrade our electric from 100amps to 200amps. That's already paid for and scheduled ahead of time (and will work as a tax write off as it's a home improvement;D)

So now I am just waiting for it to all fall into place.

[wmccall]

We thought we were going to have to upgrade to 200 amps as well, but we got away with not doing it. We have gas heat so the winter is no problem. In the summer if the AC is on, we have to make sure nobody uses the microwave or hair dryer while we have pumps running.

[razoruk]

Yah we were borderline on the electric ourselves, but with the amount of electronics in our house I took the plunge and opted for the upgrade to 200amps.
The electrician said we could probably get away with not using some appliances when using the pumps on the hottub, but we decided we didn't want to have to go through that (especially with ADHD kids in the house) and the fact I can write it off on the taxes means it was a no brainer for me in the end.

[Spatech_tuo]

Yah we were borderline on the electric ourselves, but with the amount of electronics in our house I took the plunge and opted for the upgrade to 200amps.

You've made the right choice. I've seen a couple people who can't have their AC on and the spa powered up at the same time or things such as that so it's best to get your house in order so you can enjoy the spa. Congrats.

[Vinny]

The power issue can be controlled depending on who's in the house and what inconvience you're willing to deal with. The only issue is how close to the 80% load is the main breaker taking. As the breaker gets closer to it's max, it starts to heat. As it heats, depending on how hot it gets, you can run the risk of failure.

At 100 Amps and all gas appliances except the usual central AC but with kids in the house and the fact we here hate to be inconvienced, I opted for the 200 Amp upgrade myself.  As one electrician stated, new buyers are looking for that too, so it's a great selling point when it's time to sell the house.

[Cola]

I can't believe the number of people that like to choose to upgrade their electrical service from 100 to 200.  Consider this
Your AC draws about 12 amps full load.
Hot tub with two 2.5 HP pumps (not BS brake HP either) and a 5000 watt heater at about 40 amps.
A television, some lights, your computer and other misc. appliances - maybe 15 amps total at 240 v shared load.
You 100 Amp service will be just fine unless you have a huge house and multiple AC units.
Save your money.
The 100 amp breaker may be 100% rated, whether it is or isn't, it will handle a load of 115 amps for about 20 minutes before it trips.  The wire is all rated for the peak loads also.  Wait until summer, turn on your AC and heat the tub with both pumps on high, turn on all of the lights on in the house, the tv's too and a hair drier.  Then have him check the load.  Now you just wasted a service call because you didn't believe me in the first place.
Good luck.

[ramdom]

We just went with 125 AMP breaker service up from 100 AMP fuses. Electricians mentioned 200 AMP would be great but it's also overkill so one honest soul mentioned we'd save over a thousand dollars with the minor upgrade. He got the job too!

The cost keeps ballooning on so many fronts it's good to save where you can.

[razoruk]

Well our full upgrade to the 200amp service is under $1000 anyway.
Either way I'd rather be safe than sorry and not have to worry about turning stuff off, down. I purchased a hot tub to enjoy and relax, not to worry about if I forgot the microwave etc

[Snowbird]

Our house had 100 amp Pushmatic breaker service that may or may not have been sufficient, but we were out of breakers and some of the 15 amp breakers were overloaded.

When our house was built in 1969 it had 3 small bedrooms and 2 baths.  A very large master bedroom and family room over a 2 car garage was added in 1984.  We bought the house in 1985 and added an AC unit. I added a full blown wood shop in the basement in n 1997. (Natural gas furnace and water heater).

This year we added the 12 x 18 hot tub room and the 8 x 27 covered front porch.  The house has gone from its orginal 1100 square feet to a little over 1900 square feet.

This "electrical load creep" is probably common to most houses even if they don't add on.  While 100 amp service night have been sufficient, we felt more comfortable upgrading to 200 amp - mostly because we need more breakers.  The cost wasn't all that bad - well under $1000 and one day.

One thing to note - when Allegheny Power came out to reconnect to my new 200 amp Square D box, they did not change the wire from their pole to my house even though I inceased my capacity by 100 amps.  Since their wire is hanging in the air there is no chance of overheating.

[Vinny]

I can't believe the number of people that like to choose to upgrade their electrical service from 100 to 200.  Consider this
Your AC draws about 12 amps full load.
Hot tub with two 2.5 HP pumps (not BS brake HP either) and a 5000 watt heater at about 40 amps.
A television, some lights, your computer and other misc. appliances - maybe 15 amps total at 240 v shared load.
You 100 Amp service will be just fine unless you have a huge house and multiple AC units.
Save your money.
The 100 amp breaker may be 100% rated, whether it is or isn't, it will handle a load of 115 amps for about 20 minutes before it trips.  The wire is all rated for the peak loads also.  Wait until summer, turn on your AC and heat the tub with both pumps on high, turn on all of the lights on in the house, the tv's too and a hair drier.  Then have him check the load.  Now you just wasted a service call because you didn't believe me in the first place.
Good luck.

Cola,

I mentioned this to my electrician friend and explained that I believe that you are an electrician in the industrial field.

His concern was that you really don't want to put 100% or more of power on any breaker since breakers will start to heat up. After multiple heatings the breakers themselves can start failing.

I am not an electrician but do know that one of the things that are done in the hospital where I'm at is a heat scan of the circuit breakers. Apparently, there is a concern about circuits heating up and the Director takes this scan very seriously.

Most homeowners know little about electricity and possibly overloading the panel could be dangeous. The other thing to consider is when selling the house ... the city, township or private inspetor may have a very different opinion than the homeowners and that opinion usually wins out!

[Wisoki]

That is a SCREAMING DEAL! With the '06 upgrades, you get the "Atlas" reverse molded neck jet seat and the stainless jet escutions. The cost of the spa went up a bit, so..Good job on a great spa and a great deal!

Some of you may remember this thread...

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1134612554

Well we finally made our decision and our Caldera Tahitian Utopia  is on order.

We paid $6895 for it with a covermate assist and full containers of off the shelf chemicals for it rather than the typical starter kit. We are getting a 2006 model (no idea as of yet what differences there are from the 05).

Only bad (good depending how you look at it) news I had is when the Electrician came out we have to upgrade our electric from 100amps to 200amps. That's already paid for and scheduled ahead of time (and will work as a tax write off as it's a home improvement;D)

So now I am just waiting for it to all fall into place.

[J._McD]

As always, whether it is electric, spas or automobiles there are always ways to save and cut corners.  While those of you who have an electrical knowledge background, this in one area I would never feel comfortable about "cutting a corner"

I will cut my corners on what I can see and what I am able to evaluate and form an opinion on, Electric Service to my home is not one of them even though I do have smoke detectors in the home.

I have been there to see the damage electric can cause the homeowner when it is not done right.  The statement, better safe than sorry, is right on.  I can't see electric or the affects of an overload until the damage is done.  Why take the risk.

Besides, as shrewd as spa shoppers are to work the price down, they can take that money they saved to do the electric and sleep well at night.  Perish the thought, someone would take information from this board to implement his electrical service to his spa on his own without a properly licensed electrician or electrical inspection.

We can all get things cheaper, but this is not one of those things we should cut corners without knowing what we are doing. :-/

[razoruk]

That is a SCREAMING DEAL! With the '06 upgrades, you get the "Atlas" reverse molded neck jet seat and the stainless jet escutions. The cost of the spa went up a bit, so..Good job on a great spa and a great deal!

Woohoo (again:D) It's great to hear I got a great deal on this hot tub. We took a good 3 months before making our decision and we did wet test our final three. The fact that I didn't float out of this lounger was the over riding factor. It'll be great to lounge in there and just relax.

I'm not anticipating delivery until late January, and the electrician should be out to perform the upgrade any day now.

Finding this forum was an invaulable resource in helping me know what to look for, what price range I should be hitting and mainly to know there is no number one spa out there. It's very much a personal choice in the end when you get it narrowed down to the top 5 or 6 manufacturers.

[lawdawgva]

My house originally had a 60 Amp   glass fuse system.  Everythign in the house was on 4 fuses!  Needless to say I needed an upgrade for anything, much less a hottub.  I bought some time back in the 90's when I added central air, by switching to a gas range and using the old range supply for the new central A/C unit.

Last year, my brother who is a licensed electrician, helped me upgrade to a 200 amp service.  All I had to buy were the materials which ran a little less than 400 bucks. That was definately a deal.  I knew my brother would be good for something one day!  

He told me that if  someone is just upgrading their service without say, rewiring part or all of the house, it is definately worth the extra money to go ahead and get a 200 amp service.  As someone already mentioned, it is a great selling point and you'll never find yourself in need of upgrading again, no matter what you might add  in the future.

-Sarge

[Cola]

Wow
You non electricians are real geniuses
Yes, I am an industrial electrician
I work in Windsor, Ontario, Canada which has one of the stringent enforcement divisions of the most stringent electrical code in the world.  I read about concerns of ETL vs UL, well I take new milion dollar pieces of equipment bring them up to code that meets CSA, UL, ETL etc.  I perform PSR's (prestart health and safety reviews) with engineering groups for equipment that ends up or is in small or large scale manufacturing facilities.  Am I more qualified than the guy that wires your house or some body else here that did spend the money on the upgrade, yes I am.  Should you listen to me, no but you should pay attention to what I write.
The purpose of the 100 amp main breaker is to protect the wire that is in front of it as well as the bus bars that are in the tub.  Most breakers (or fuses) are in place to protect the wire that is on the load side but in this case, there is no upstream protection in most cases, and where there is, it is likely rated for an even higher load for multiple taps (houses).  When you increase the panel size and or the main breaker size, the utility will in most cases not increase your feed because they know that it is not required for the intermittent surges that you will require.  Some equipment requires a constant load and most do not.  When we size a main service for a Tool & Mold shop, we base most of the load on three types of equipment - lighting, air conditioning and air compressor.  These are constant loads which make up 75% of the energy consumption.  I may have a customer with a total load in this area of 200 amps and an additional 25 pieces of equipment with a combined FLA (full load amps) of 1200 amps ( of which several machines are rated at 100 amps).  I can safely in most of these cases provide the customer with a 501 amp service (three 167 kVa cans on the pole) and he will never blow a fuse or draw even close to the 501 amps available (or 80% of that).  In another instance, I may have an injection shop that has a different constant load.  Lighting and air compressor as before, but now we add between 10 and 100 motors that range between 25 HP and 150 HP (real hp not the BS brake HP) along with heaters for the barrels, cooling towers, chillers, material handling systems, etc.  In this case I would likely require a main service in the 50% to 60% range of the combined FLA of all equipment.

Now back to your 100 amp service and your hot tub.
If you have an electric hot water heater and or a very large house or over a 1.5 ton AC unit, you may go over the top here, but like most of us, you don't and you won't.  Go here to check out the trip curve on a 100 amp Square D breaker.  Look at page 25.  

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-QOB%20Circuit%20Breakers/QOT/0730CT9801.pdf

This information is similar for most applications.
Now take a look at your continuous loads.

Summer
Air conditioner (12 to 15 amps) during the day
Hot tub after a water change (25 amps) (5000 watt heater and one pump on low speed)

Winter
Hot tub after a water change (25 amps) (5000 watt heater and one pump on low speed)

Other intermittent loads
Hot tub 2 pumps on high and heat running (40 to 48 amps max. in most cases) for fifteen to 30 minutes
Oven (10 minute warm up then it cycles)
Microwave (1 to 10 minutes)
Lights, computers, fridge, freezer, power tools, portable heater (winter only)

So think about this

Your main panel likely has 225 amp bus bars
Your feed is likely four guage wire that won't get replaced after an upgrade unless the utility thinks that you will require it and you pay for it.
A 200 amp breaker located after undersized wire is not a safer solution.

Call the inspector and ask his opinion.
Call the utility and ask theirs
Check to see what your peak 15 minute draw for the month is.

One last thing

If you had an average load of 10 amps for 30 days at an end rate of 12 cents per kWh, your bill would be as follows.
10 (amps) X 240 (volts) / 1000 kWh = 2.4 kWh
2.4 (kWh) X 0.12 (dollars) X 720 (30 X 24 hours) = $207.36

Do you actually think that your current (amp) draw is that high?

Good luck to all
Steve